THC in Trayvon's system

[annalia]

I completely disagree. First, Crump's ready-made choir boy image has been completely damaged. While there are many here who think smoking pot is a common practice, it is not commonly thought of as a virtue. Further, if this case goes to trial, IMO there's a good chance that the defense will get an expert to testify on cannabis withdrawal to give a possible reason as to why TM attacked GZ (as the prosecution will surely have witnesses claiming he would never do such a thing). Sure, the defense may choose to ignore the THC levels altogether, but if the prosecution tries to use them, IMO, they'll do so at their own risk.

This was not a win for the prosecution side. And even though I think it's a wash, it is evidence that the defense may be able to use in their favor.

JMO, OMO, and MOO

It doesn't matter who thinks it's a virtue or not a virtue. What will matter is that the amounts were too low and that proves that he wasn't high when GZ said he looked like he was. The defense can say, see he wasn't like his family said he was, so what, evidence showed he wasn't high that night and whether or not he was high that night, as GZ stated, is what matters. So yes, that would be considered a win for the prosecution.

I haven't heard one expert, even ones who usually speak in favor of the defense say anything other than this is completely irrelevant to the case. Highly doubtful that anyone would ever testify that he was going through any cannibus withdrawl, no way to ever be able to prove such a thing, how much or how long Trayvon even smoked pot.

 

[Aedrys]

I completely disagree. First, Crump's ready-made choir boy image has been completely damaged. While there are many here who think smoking pot is a common practice, it is not commonly thought of as a virtue. Further, if this case goes to trial, IMO there's a good chance that the defense will get an expert to testify on cannabis withdrawal to give a possible reason as to why TM attacked GZ (as the prosecution will surely have witnesses claiming he would never do such a thing). Sure, the defense may choose to ignore the THC levels altogether, but if the prosecution tries to use them, IMO, they'll do so at their own risk.

This was not a win for the prosecution side. And even though I think it's a wash, it is evidence that the defense may be able to use in their favor.

JMO, OMO, and MOO

I disagree completely here. I have never heard of anyone getting violent because they were withdrawing from cannabis. Actually, I've never heard of anyone withdrawing from cannabis. It's not that kind of drug. Good luck on the defense finding someone to say that. The only things I've ever heard in conjunction with cannabis is mellowing out, reaction time slowing down so people shouldn't do things like drive, and getting the munchies. It's not a hard drug and it's very prevalent in society. I hear someone smokes pot, I shrug my shoulders. They aren't dangerous unless they are operating heavy machinery. Most just smoke at home, and lot use for medicinal purposes. I don't immediately think cannabis = homicidal maniac on the loose. The ones I worry about are people who get high on heroin, cocaine, meth, etc. Those people get violent and kill each other for the next high.

 

[rossva]

BBM. Wow, talk about profiling.

I disagree completely here. I have never heard of anyone getting violent because they were withdrawing from cannabis. Actually, I've never heard of anyone withdrawing from cannabis. It's not that kind of drug. Good luck on the defense finding someone to say that. The only things I've ever heard in conjunction with cannabis is mellowing out, reaction time slowing down so people shouldn't do things like drive, and getting the munchies. It's not a hard drug and it's very prevalent in society. I hear someone smokes pot, I shrug my shoulders. They aren't dangerous unless they are operating heavy machinery. Most just smoke at home, and lot use for medicinal purposes. I don't immediately think cannabis = homicidal maniac on the loose. The ones I worry about are people who get high on heroin, cocaine, meth, etc. Those people get violent and kill each other for the next high.

 

[magnolia]

I completely disagree. First, Crump's ready-made choir boy image has been completely damaged. While there are many here who think smoking pot is a common practice, it is not commonly thought of as a virtue. Further, if this case goes to trial, IMO there's a good chance that the defense will get an expert to testify on cannabis withdrawal to give a possible reason as to why TM attacked GZ (as the prosecution will surely have witnesses claiming he would never do such a thing). Sure, the defense may choose to ignore the THC levels altogether, but if the prosecution tries to use them, IMO, they'll do so at their own risk.

This was not a win for the prosecution side. And even though I think it's a wash, it is evidence that the defense may be able to use in their favor.

JMO, OMO, and MOO

I had thought about possible cannabis withdrawal as well.

Chronic cannabis users showed decreases in mood and appetite and increases in irritability and anxiety and their scores on the Hamilton Rating Scale for Depression scale increased.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannabis_withdrawal

 

[Aedrys]

BBM. Wow, talk about profiling.

That's not profiling. There are new stories everyday of people killing each other for hard drugs like cocaine and meth. They have been a serious epidemic and problem in the United States and around the world for a long, long time. How many people are in jail for drug related crimes? That is not profiling, that is reality.

 

[Aedrys]

I had thought about possible cannabis withdrawal as well.

There is no proof that TM is chronic user, and no proof that he had even used cannabis that night. It stays in the system for WEEKS afterwards. And like I said, I have yet to hear of someone withdrawing from cannabis or hurting someone if withdrawal is possible. I have never seen a news story about someone killing someone else because of cannabis withdrawal. This is getting ridiculous. TM was NOT the dangerous one that night. He was unarmed, had TRACES of cannabis in his system, and GZ was the one on prescription drugs that can have dangerous side effects and was also carrying a gun. GZ was the threat that night, not TM.

 

[claudicici]

Since when is weed a drug you can tell someone is on? Unless you're out of your mind super high swith that little bit of THC in your system nobody can tell by looking at you walking down the street that you're high.He couldn't even see his eyes.It's ridiculous.We see Trayvon in the store and he doesn't seem high.Plus if you call 911 each time you think someone may have smoked some weed and that somehow makes the person a threat or something you'd be calling 911 all day every day (at least where I live)

 

[Cher352]

http://www.nhtsa.gov/People/injury/research/job185drugs/cannabis.htm
nterpretation of Blood Concentrations: It is difficult to establish a relationship between a person's THC blood or plasma concentration and performance impairing effects. Concentrations of parent drug and metabolite are very dependent on pattern of use as well as dose. THC concentrations typically peak during the act of smoking, while peak 11-OH THC concentrations occur approximately 9-23 minutes after the start of smoking. Concentrations of both analytes decline rapidly and are often < 5 ng/mL at 3 hours. Significant THC concentrations (7 to 18 ng/mL) are noted following even a single puff or hit of a marijuana cigarette. Peak plasma THC concentrations ranged from 46-188 ng/mL in 6 subjects after they smoked 8.8 mg THC over 10 minutes. Chronic users can have mean plasma levels of THC-COOH of 45 ng/mL, 12 hours after use; corresponding THC levels are, however, less than 1 ng/mL. Following oral administration, THC concentrations peak at 1-3 hours and are lower than after smoking. Dronabinol and THC-COOH are present in equal concentrations in plasma and concentrations peak at approximately 2-4 hours after dosing.

bbm found this on THC-cooh

Thanks but it still rather sounds like Greek to me...LOL!!!

But I did find this on the same link under Urine Test Results:

Positive test results generally indicate use within 1-3 days; however, the detection window could be significantly longer following heavy, chronic, use.
http://www.nhtsa.gov/People/injury/research/job185drugs/cannabis.htm

 

[SNOWINMEMPHIS]

The THC content available in marijuana nowadays is much higher than it used to be.
When I am in a store and someone who has been smoking it, say in their car, comes in and is next to me, the odor is very obvious. A strong "skunky" odor.
About 15 years ago, a friend of mine who was an early inside grower took some of the fresh buds from his plants with him on a trip on Amtrak. The older ladies near him complained to the workers on the train that a skunk must have been run over and was somehow attached to the train.
As far as how long the effects of today's marijuana can stay in a person's system, I would have to say that it depends on the person's tolerance level as well as the THC level in the marijuana.
As far as a withdrawal from marijuana, again it depends on the person's usage. One common side-effect of withdrawal from longterm usage is the loss of appetite. Being in my middle 40's, I have known (and still do) a lot of daily pot smokers. Some of them can't sleep or really eat without their pot.
Many of them are very successful in all aspects of their lives and no one outside of their immediate group of family and friends would ever suspect they are cannabis users.
It is criminal but if alcohol and cigarettes remain legal, I see no reason for it not to be decriminalized. IMO, TM would've been more suspect in my mind if he were intoxicated on alcohol. A drunk person is much more likely to be aggressive.
I don't put much evidenciary weight at all on the THC in TM's autopsy report. Having educated people in classrooms on the effects of marijuana, good and bad, my research showed that upwards of 1/4 of most teens in TM's age group would test positive for it.
Trayvon was not displaying any type of marijuana psychosis. In the 7-11 video played at normal speed, he didn't come off as threatening to me.
jmo

 

[gxm]

I disagree completely here. I have never heard of anyone getting violent because they were withdrawing from cannabis. Actually, I've never heard of anyone withdrawing from cannabis. It's not that kind of drug. Good luck on the defense finding someone to say that. The only things I've ever heard in conjunction with cannabis is mellowing out, reaction time slowing down so people shouldn't do things like drive, and getting the munchies. It's not a hard drug and it's very prevalent in society. I hear someone smokes pot, I shrug my shoulders. They aren't dangerous unless they are operating heavy machinery. Most just smoke at home, and lot use for medicinal purposes. I don't immediately think cannabis = homicidal maniac on the loose. The ones I worry about are people who get high on heroin, cocaine, meth, etc. Those people get violent and kill each other for the next high.

BBM.

Marijuana withdrawal symptoms

Withdrawal symptoms to marijuana can be somewhat characterized as the opposite to the intoxicating effects of the drug…instead of hunger, a loss of appetite, and instead of drowsiness, an inability to sleep.

Some additional symptoms of marijuana withdrawal can include headache, nausea, anxiety (common) paranoia and even irritability or aggression.

These sensations will endure with some intensity for several days before gradually subsiding, and it is during this period that the cravings to use are strongest, and there is the greatest risk of relapse.

Google "cannabis withdrawal" and there are lots of hits. My point is simply that the defense can look at TM's THC levels and figure out how they want to approach it at trial. They can bring on experts who will say that TM may have been high, or they can bring on experts who can say that TM may have been experiencing withdrawal symptoms that caused aggression (linking with the twitter comment about him throwing a punch at a bus driver). The THC levels can be used by the defense in whatever manner they decide this evidence will be best used (or they may choose to ignore it). IMO, this evidence can not be favorably used by the prosecution and the SA is best to avoid it altogether.

JMO, OMO, and MOO.

 

[SNOWINMEMPHIS]

One other thought while I am at it:~)
The old adage about marijuana being a gateway drug is not really valid.
The real gateway drugs are alcohol and tobacco.
A person who ends up dead with a syringe in their arm usually didn't use marijuana as their first illegal drug. Most of them, as many of us, smoked a cigarette or drank alcohol under the legal age.
The only reason I can see that anyone is putting emphasis on the THC in TM's system is to try to make him look like a hardened criminal. If they applied that same logic to their own children, grandchildren and friends, I have to wonder how many "hardened criminals" they might uncover?
jmo

 

[Aedrys]

BBM.

Marijuana withdrawal symptoms

Withdrawal symptoms to marijuana can be somewhat characterized as the opposite to the intoxicating effects of the drug…instead of hunger, a loss of appetite, and instead of drowsiness, an inability to sleep.

Some additional symptoms of marijuana withdrawal can include headache, nausea, anxiety (common) paranoia and even irritability or aggression.

These sensations will endure with some intensity for several days before gradually subsiding, and it is during this period that the cravings to use are strongest, and there is the greatest risk of relapse.

Google "cannabis withdrawal" and there are lots of hits. My point is simply that the defense can look at TM's THC levels and figure out how they want to approach it at trial. They can bring on experts who will say that TM may have been high, or they can bring on experts who can say that TM may have been experiencing withdrawal symptoms that caused aggression (linking with the twitter comment about him throwing a punch at a bus driver). The THC levels can be used by the defense in whatever manner they decide this evidence will be best used (or they may choose to ignore it). IMO, this evidence can not be favorably used by the prosecution and the SA is best to avoid it altogether.

JMO, OMO, and MOO.

Again, he had TRACES of it in his blood. A trace amount is a very, very, tiny amount. There is no proof that he was withdrawing from it. There is no proof that he was a chronic or heavy user. There is no proof that it made him become aggressive and violent. The defense should not go near this with a ten foot pole if O'Mara is smart.

 

[SNOWINMEMPHIS]

To me, it doesn't even matter if Trayvon was "high" on pot when he died.
It's just not relevant.
As far as the bad side effects of marijuana, many of the studies were performed in countries where it isn't actually illegal. The psychotic effects of high THC marijuana have been one of the leading causes of some forms of psychosis in places like Afghanistan for a long time.
Also it can trigger a subject with the predisposition for schizophrenia to have their first psychotic break.
So yes, it can be dangerous to use. Especially with the United States now having marijuana readily available that compares to the THC levels routinely found in samples like Afghani Hash.
It depends on the user and the actual marijuana they have smoked.
Unless the defense can come up with some reason to suggest that Trayvon was experiencing any type of psychosis relating to his marijuana usage, it is entirely irrelevant, IMO.
For the record, I'm not on any "side" except the side of justice. Only a jury with all of the facts can make an informed decision.
jmo

 

[whateva]

IMO.... the presence of THC in general is a very minor issue... but in the context of the case it will have significant import:

the entire case is: who initiated the fight?

team G will no doubt pile up a stack of evidence to portray T's character as:
an adult sized football player, involved with drugs, on drugs that night which reduced his inhibitions, emulating gang behavior with tattoos grills etc., bragging about acts of violence on twitter, suspended for burglary tools / marijuana / etc.... and T decided he was going to teach a Watch volunteer a lesson for following him.

The THC positive result is another problem for the State in pressing a prosecution.... and it's significant....

 

[Aedrys]

IMO.... the presence of THC in general is a very minor issue... but in the context of the case it will have significant import:

the entire case is: who initiated the fight?

team G will no doubt pile up a stack of evidence to portray T's character as:
an adult sized football player, involved with drugs, on drugs that night which reduced his inhibitions, emulating gang behavior with tattoos grills etc., bragging about acts of violence on twitter, suspended for burglary tools / marijuana / etc.... and T decided he was going to teach a Watch volunteer a lesson for following him.

The THC positive result is another problem for the State in pressing a prosecution.... and it's significant....

No, it's not. There were TRACES of it in his blood. I guess a lot of people here don't understand what TRACES means. According to merriam-webster.com, "trace" is an amount of a chemical constituent not always quantitatively determinable because of minuteness. Dictionary.com further defines "trace" - an extremely small amount of some chemical component: a trace of copper in its composition. We're talking minute quantities so small it doesn't make a darn bit of difference to what happened that night.

There is no proof of anything about the THC that night except that it was in trace amounts in his system. That is it. It does not automatically prove that it made TM aggressive or that he intiated the fight. Now, if there were mass amounts of THC in his system, that would be a different story. But we're talking TRACE AMOUNTS here, and some people are making a dang mountain of a molehill. We don't even know that he smoked it that night. I can see the defense maybe using it for character assassination, but I don't think the prosecution is going to do anything with it. It's too dang small to be of any difference to what happened that night.

 

[beach]

Mod warning:

What is it with LONG TIME MEMBERS who continue to quote and respond to a post with a link that is questionable instead of alerting???

I have removed the original post with the blog link and surrounding posts quoting it. Everyone here is responsible for continuing this bickering instead of alerting the post. One person alerted it and that person did not respond. Thank you.

Tired of the petty bickering. Have some respect and act like adults.

 

[SNOWINMEMPHIS]

The fact is that traces of marijuana can be found in a person's blood and urine for at least 28 days following usage. Period.
Since Trayvon had been suspended because of the empty baggie containing traces of marijuana, isn't it possible that his last usage was at that time? If I'm not correct on the timeline of his suspension in relation to the time of his death, I apologize.
Yes more than likely the defense will try to have this admitted in at GZ's trial. I think it is foolish to do so. Unless the jury is made up almost entirely of totally uninformed people (concerning marijuana and its' effects), I don't see it playing a role in GZ's defense.
Seems to me it is being used to try to justify GZ's words on his call saying "looks like he's on drugs or something". I have no idea what was going through GZ's mind at the time and I am not trying to crucify him. I do not see him as a sociopath or a psychopath, which are almost interchangeable. Rather he seems to me to be a somewhat typical 28 year old male. As Trayvon seemed to be a typical 17 year old male.
This shooting should not have happened. Period. I'm not sure that a charge of 2nd degree murder without a lesser included charge of criminally negligent homicide will work for the prosecutor. Not knowing what they have besides what has been released already, I can only hope that they did not overcharge him in response to the public outcry.
Since this thread is about the THC in Trayvon's system, I'm sorry for going a bit off-topic. Pitting GZ's prescription drugs against TM's THC is just a red herring. It's all just to incite more anger from both sides.
For example, we all know how totally anti-drug and alcohol Jane Velez-Mitchell is. However, is it just me or does she seem to be putting much more emphasis on GZ's prescription drugs than Trayvon's THC? I don't get it at all as it seems more than a little hypocritical to me.
jmo

 

[lonetraveler]

I disagree completely here. I have never heard of anyone getting violent because they were withdrawing from cannabis. Actually, I've never heard of anyone withdrawing from cannabis. It's not that kind of drug. Good luck on the defense finding someone to say that. The only things I've ever heard in conjunction with cannabis is mellowing out, reaction time slowing down so people shouldn't do things like drive, and getting the munchies. It's not a hard drug and it's very prevalent in society. I hear someone smokes pot, I shrug my shoulders. They aren't dangerous unless they are operating heavy machinery. Most just smoke at home, and lot use for medicinal purposes. I don't immediately think cannabis = homicidal maniac on the loose. The ones I worry about are people who get high on heroin, cocaine, meth, etc. Those people get violent and kill each other for the next high.

I agree with your post up to the last two comments. You might want to quantify that "some" people have become violent and have killed for the next high........instead of lumping them all in the same basket. JMO.

 

[lillygator]

it doesnt really matter - IMO trayvon could have sat under a tree and been nodding off from a heroin fix and that still doesnt make it okay for someone to walk up to him and shoot him.

I've seen it said that everyone's trying to play like trayvon was perfect, no one is perfect, I for one never think any such thing. what trayvon WAS, was a normal teenager. come on, we were all in high school....anyone playing the "GASP!! but marijuana is ILLEGAL" thing is coming off as rather...innocent.

I don't believe for one second that anyone walked up and shot him...there was more going on than that.

What does smoking pot have to do with breaking into houses? And GZ did not know about the THC in TM's system. This would not help him. A lot of people smoke pot and it tends to stay in the system for a long time afterward. This is just a red herring distraction, nothing more.

as a pp stated, I think it leads more into, that he was willing to do illegal activity, hence he could have been casing houses and looking suspicious that night.

I don't think this will become an issue in the court room.

....being caught on a public school campus with drug residue and paraphernalia and not being charged is a huge pass here...I am pretty sure FL has strict laws on that. Unless they have changed recently.

 

[whateva]

No, it's not. There were TRACES of it in his blood. I guess a lot of people here don't understand what TRACES means. According to merriam-webster.com, "trace" is an amount of a chemical constituent not always quantitatively determinable because of minuteness. Dictionary.com further defines "trace" - an extremely small amount of some chemical component: a trace of copper in its composition. We're talking minute quantities so small it doesn't make a darn bit of difference to what happened that night.

There is no proof of anything about the THC that night except that it was in trace amounts in his system. That is it. It does not automatically prove that it made TM aggressive or that he intiated the fight. Now, if there were mass amounts of THC in his system, that would be a different story. But we're talking TRACE AMOUNTS here, and some people are making a dang mountain of a molehill. We don't even know that he smoked it that night. I can see the defense maybe using it for character assassination, but I don't think the prosecution is going to do anything with it. It's too dang small to be of any difference to what happened that night.

a bunch of sarcasm about the definition of 'trace' is unnecessary.... I thought I was clear... the case that Team G will attempt to pitch is one of a bad kid / gang emulator / drug user... and T having a positive THC test result helps them... and the test is significant because it helps complete their story on drugs: it definitively proves he used them... they are illegal... and they have definite effects on behavior which includes suppression of inhibition which could have resulted in the fight

I don't think it's as significant as the drugs GZ was supposedly taking at the time. After all, TM had no recorded history of violence, nor is marijuana use shown to increase aggression.

GZ has a history of assault, and the drugs he was prescribed are often reported to increase agitation and aggression.

I have no doubt that O'Mara will use all at his disposal to dirty up the victim, be it the THC levels or anything else he can show that will play into negative stereotypes. IMO.

what drugs G was on are immaterial to this thread but the incidence of aggression is less than .5% with Temazepam making it not 'often'... in fact it makes it almost statistically irrelevant and not conclusively linked to the drug...

marijuana use has not been shown to increase aggression, but it has been shown to reduce inhibition which can easily result in the same outcome