The “Undoing” of the Ramseys.

[TeaTime]

Why can no one remember what they did when they got home from the gift deliveries? So many versions. Why can't John remember who went into the Stine's? Either he was alone in the car waiting, or he wasn't.

 

[Annapurna]

CorallaroC , if you look at the floorplans BR's room is through the playroom. Maybe that's what he means? Otherwise I suspect he just misspoke. The children both had TVs in their rooms, JB's was in a closet. Maybe BR's was too. He could have meant that bed was in the area of the tv, where BR could see it, and they were saying room so many times he just said room instead.

Teatime, no one can remember because they're all lying. There is only one version of the truth. I believe their lawyers encouraged the "Ramnesia". When in doubt, or whenever something was a sensitive detail, just forget. I've recently come to believe that there is some important detail being concealed in the encounter with the Stines. I think it is likely that JB did indeed get out say hello, BR would have been saying hello to Doug and she probably wanted to tag along. I don't think anything happened at the S's house exactly, but maybe it was the beginning of a conflict between the siblings.

 

[TeaTime]

Anna - I think the initial injury was done at the Stine's house and it was BR and Doug playing with a hockey puck and stick or hit the puck with a golf club. There was a lot made in the book by the R's about JR not wanting BR to play hockey, even forbidding him to own a hockey stick but Doug gave him a used puck which JR let him keep. There is no reason for any discussion about freaking hockey except that it had something to do with the death of JBR.

I have always thought that JBR was injured at the Stines which is why JR 'can't remember' who went into the house, that she was carried by PR to the car and rode home on PR'slap. PR felt the indentation of the skull on the way home and didn't say anything to JR because he was so adamant about not allowing BR to play with hockey sticks and she let him do it. JBR slipped into unconsciousness which is why it was said that she was 'asleep' and carried upstairs. PR knew that something was wrong, called Nedra and Nedra said it was just swelling, to give her some pineapple and tea, diuretics, to reduce the swelling and to check on her every hour. PR was able to rouse JBR long enough to give her the 'diuretics' and put her back in bed. She was trying to tell Nedra that it was a dent, but Nedra brushed it off. I absolutely believe that Nedra was called that night and helped with the RN as well. It is pure Nedra.

THIS is the reason that PR didn't want to go to the Fernie's house.

When PR couldn't rouse JBR again she woke JR in a panic and told him what happened. They knew JBR was not going to recover from that blow and her breathing was becoming more and more labored and shallow. If they called 911, the paramedics would take the child to the hospital where they would have to explain the injury to the head and eventually to the vagina. If doctors at the hospital were able to save JBR, she would likely remain in a vegetative state for what the Rs imagined would be years. She was dying and PR decided that she should die on Christmas day, as the ultimate gift from her to Jesus - not on Dec. 26th. She fashioned the cord, dragged JBR into the wine cellar with the cords, pulled them tightly so JBR could no longer breathe, wrapped her body and latched the door behind her. JR watched, in complete panic but he was having nothing to do with it at all. He did however, mention the fact that the previous sexual assault would be noticed, and therefore the sexual assault was staged by PR to cover the past assaults. As for the sexual assault, Nedra would have told PR, 'she can never be Miss America now because she may announce that she was a victim of sexual assault and it will embarrass the whole family!" It is so Nedra.
"She was a little bit molested."

Image was everything. Keeping up appearances was of vital importance to the Paugh's and JR was right up there in that image saving mode. They didn't want to have BR labeled as 'the kid who molested and killed his sister'.

Doug Stine was going to spend the night with Burke but didn't. PR said it was because they were headed out early to MI, but it was the Stines that left early on the 26th and despite being the last people to see JBR alive besides immediate family members, they weren't called to the R home. A lawyer and a pediatrician were called along with the Whites and the Fernies.

It is my opinion that JR asked the lawyer what the age of accountability was in CO when he arrived, found out that being still only nine years of age, BR was safe and that the pediatrician was there to combat any accusations of past sexual assaults which may arise when JBR's body was found. JR never thought it would take so long to find her and when LA said 'go search the house from TOP to BOTTOM' for anything out of place; he ran straight to the BOTTOM, the basement, with FW is hot pursuit. The body was found within minutes, after a brief train room visit where JR pointed out the broken window to FW.

The RN was done to explain why JBR was nowhere to be seen, to invent a story to explain why she would be found dead, to mis-direct the investigators and to buy time for all the friends to arrive and destroy the crime scene. The Rs wanted witnesses to their horror, witnesses who would never believe that the Rs had anything to do with the crime.

 

[andreww]

Anna - I think the initial injury was done at the Stine's house and it was BR and Doug playing with a hockey puck and stick or hit the puck with a golf club. There was a lot made in the book by the R's about JR not wanting BR to play hockey, even forbidding him to own a hockey stick but Doug gave him a used puck which JR let him keep. There is no reason for any discussion about freaking hockey except that it had something to do with the death of JBR.

I have always thought that JBR was injured at the Stines which is why JR 'can't remember' who went into the house, that she was carried by PR to the car and rode home on PR'slap. PR felt the indentation of the skull on the way home and didn't say anything to JR because he was so adamant about not allowing BR to play with hockey sticks and she let him do it. JBR slipped into unconsciousness which is why it was said that she was 'asleep' and carried upstairs. PR knew that something was wrong, called Nedra and Nedra said it was just swelling, to give her some pineapple and tea, diuretics, to reduce the swelling and to check on her every hour. PR was able to rouse JBR long enough to give her the 'diuretics' and put her back in bed. She was trying to tell Nedra that it was a dent, but Nedra brushed it off. I absolutely believe that Nedra was called that night and helped with the RN as well. It is pure Nedra.

THIS is the reason that PR didn't want to go to the Fernie's house.

When PR couldn't rouse JBR again she woke JR in a panic and told him what happened. They knew JBR was not going to recover from that blow and her breathing was becoming more and more labored and shallow. If they called 911, the paramedics would take the child to the hospital where they would have to explain the injury to the head and eventually to the vagina. If doctors at the hospital were able to save JBR, she would likely remain in a vegetative state for what the Rs imagined would be years. She was dying and PR decided that she should die on Christmas day, as the ultimate gift from her to Jesus - not on Dec. 26th. She fashioned the cord, dragged JBR into the wine cellar with the cords, pulled them tightly so JBR could no longer breathe, wrapped her body and latched the door behind her. JR watched, in complete panic but he was having nothing to do with it at all. He did however, mention the fact that the previous sexual assault would be noticed, and therefore the sexual assault was staged by PR to cover the past assaults. As for the sexual assault, Nedra would have told PR, 'she can never be Miss America now because she may announce that she was a victim of sexual assault and it will embarrass the whole family!" It is so Nedra.
"She was a little bit molested."

Image was everything. Keeping up appearances was of vital importance to the Paugh's and JR was right up there in that image saving mode. They didn't want to have BR labeled as 'the kid who molested and killed his sister'.

Doug Stine was going to spend the night with Burke but didn't. PR said it was because they were headed out early to MI, but it was the Stines that left early on the 26th and despite being the last people to see JBR alive besides immediate family members, they weren't called to the R home. A lawyer and a pediatrician were called along with the Whites and the Fernies.

It is my opinion that JR asked the lawyer what the age of accountability was in CO when he arrived, found out that being still only nine years of age, BR was safe and that the pediatrician was there to combat any accusations of past sexual assaults which may arise when JBR's body was found. JR never thought it would take so long to find her and when LA said 'go search the house from TOP to BOTTOM' for anything out of place; he ran straight to the BOTTOM, the basement, with FW is hot pursuit. The body was found within minutes, after a brief train room visit where JR pointed out the broken window to FW.

The RN was done to explain why JBR was nowhere to be seen, to invent a story to explain why she would be found dead, to mis-direct the investigators and to buy time for all the friends to arrive and destroy the crime scene. The Rs wanted witnesses to their horror, witnesses who would never believe that the Rs had anything to do with the crime.

That's a entertaining piece of fiction but it has more holes than Swiss cheese. First off, if JB had been hurt whilst innocently playing, they would have called 911. The Ramsey's had shown no hesitation to take her for medical treatment in the past, why would they now deny her help when she needed it most? Secondly, if JB were rendered unconscious at the Stine's, how would she have eaten the pineapple that was on the Ramsey's kitchen counter?

I believe it might be worth investigating whether the Stine boy had decided to join the Ramsey's on the Charlevoix trip, and that he and Burke may have sexually assaulted JB, setting off a chain of events that resulted in her death.


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[observation]

Anna - I think the initial injury was done at the Stine's house and it was BR and Doug playing with a hockey puck and stick or hit the puck with a golf club. There was a lot made in the book by the R's about JR not wanting BR to play hockey, even forbidding him to own a hockey stick but Doug gave him a used puck which JR let him keep. There is no reason for any discussion about freaking hockey except that it had something to do with the death of JBR.

I have always thought that JBR was injured at the Stines which is why JR 'can't remember' who went into the house, that she was carried by PR to the car and rode home on PR'slap. PR felt the indentation of the skull on the way home and didn't say anything to JR because he was so adamant about not allowing BR to play with hockey sticks and she let him do it. JBR slipped into unconsciousness which is why it was said that she was 'asleep' and carried upstairs. PR knew that something was wrong, called Nedra and Nedra said it was just swelling, to give her some pineapple and tea, diuretics, to reduce the swelling and to check on her every hour. PR was able to rouse JBR long enough to give her the 'diuretics' and put her back in bed. She was trying to tell Nedra that it was a dent, but Nedra brushed it off. I absolutely believe that Nedra was called that night and helped with the RN as well. It is pure Nedra.

THIS is the reason that PR didn't want to go to the Fernie's house.

When PR couldn't rouse JBR again she woke JR in a panic and told him what happened. They knew JBR was not going to recover from that blow and her breathing was becoming more and more labored and shallow. If they called 911, the paramedics would take the child to the hospital where they would have to explain the injury to the head and eventually to the vagina. If doctors at the hospital were able to save JBR, she would likely remain in a vegetative state for what the Rs imagined would be years. She was dying and PR decided that she should die on Christmas day, as the ultimate gift from her to Jesus - not on Dec. 26th. She fashioned the cord, dragged JBR into the wine cellar with the cords, pulled them tightly so JBR could no longer breathe, wrapped her body and latched the door behind her. JR watched, in complete panic but he was having nothing to do with it at all. He did however, mention the fact that the previous sexual assault would be noticed, and therefore the sexual assault was staged by PR to cover the past assaults. As for the sexual assault, Nedra would have told PR, 'she can never be Miss America now because she may announce that she was a victim of sexual assault and it will embarrass the whole family!" It is so Nedra.
"She was a little bit molested."

Image was everything. Keeping up appearances was of vital importance to the Paugh's and JR was right up there in that image saving mode. They didn't want to have BR labeled as 'the kid who molested and killed his sister'.

Doug Stine was going to spend the night with Burke but didn't. PR said it was because they were headed out early to MI, but it was the Stines that left early on the 26th and despite being the last people to see JBR alive besides immediate family members, they weren't called to the R home. A lawyer and a pediatrician were called along with the Whites and the Fernies.

It is my opinion that JR asked the lawyer what the age of accountability was in CO when he arrived, found out that being still only nine years of age, BR was safe and that the pediatrician was there to combat any accusations of past sexual assaults which may arise when JBR's body was found. JR never thought it would take so long to find her and when LA said 'go search the house from TOP to BOTTOM' for anything out of place; he ran straight to the BOTTOM, the basement, with FW is hot pursuit. The body was found within minutes, after a brief train room visit where JR pointed out the broken window to FW.

The RN was done to explain why JBR was nowhere to be seen, to invent a story to explain why she would be found dead, to mis-direct the investigators and to buy time for all the friends to arrive and destroy the crime scene. The Rs wanted witnesses to their horror, witnesses who would never believe that the Rs had anything to do with the crime.

TeaTime- there is a lot of merit in your theory and from all the reading I have done on this case- I find it very interesting. JB coat was found in the family car that PR identified as the one she wore to the Whites. Thanks for sharing your observations. Once in the house they tried to get her to eat the pineapple for the swelling.


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[AndHence]

This is a well-reasoned sequence of events, however wasn't the blow believed to be of such force that it rendered JB unconscious almost immediately? I don't think she'd have remained awake at the Stines, lapsed into unconsciousness in the car, and then briefly come to long enough to have a piece of pineapple to "reduce swelling".

 

[FrankieB]

So she received the head blow at the party and several hours later, before dying at home she was taken to the basement to be molested, staged and strangled? At what point did the Ramseys also decide to throw down into the scene the cute pictures, Dr. Seuss book and stained blanket? And Am I also being asked to believe Nedra dictated the Ransom note over the phone? Can you honestly picture anybody assisting with such task over the phone? Sorry but nothing in the theory is remotely possible.

 

[rob]

When a parent has a child killed, in their own home, then has to "negotiate" speaking to LE about it, something just ain't right. Somebody in that house did it, and all of them know who. For whatever reason, keeping it secret was more important than their child.
And I don't think their financial worth would have anything to do with it.
MOO
Can't wait to see the statement analysis of BR's 3 day talk with Dr Phil

 

[reintarnation]

This is a well-reasoned sequence of events, however wasn't the blow believed to be of such force that it rendered JB unconscious almost immediately? I don't think she'd have remained awake at the Stines, lapsed into unconsciousness in the car, and then briefly come to long enough to have a piece of pineapple to "reduce swelling".

At the time, some believed the blow to the head was the cause of death. Ever since that was disproven, the consensus of medical experts, LE, and anyone else qualified to make an opinion has been that the blow to the head would have rendered JBR unconscious immediately. Not only that, but she would have eventually died of the injury if she hadn't been strangled, even with medical intervention. The severity of the injury means that we have to accept that from that point on JBR was essentially lifeless.

 

[UKGuy]

The Stine link was a pivotal part of BlueCrab's theory, but we have no forensic evidence linking any Stine to the crime-scene. It's possible Susan Stine knows whether JonBenet was awake or asleep including her husband, since they both ended up being employed by the Ramseys.

The Stine's definitely have dirt on the R's this includes the son Doug who has remained friends with BR over the years, they facechat and hang out online.

Its interesting to note Doug Stine was a guest at the R's Christmas Party, including
Fleet White's son
Fernie's son
Friend of the Fernie's son
Burke Ramsey

So if anything innaproriate took place he might know, as well as Susan Stine who answered the door to police first responder?


BR says JonBenet walked into the house, the pineapple in her stomach says she made it alive to the house, her dressed ponytails suggest Patsy dressed her for bed in the same pajamas she wore the night before?

.

 

[CorallaroC]

Seems like a couple of yrs ago, the youtube video containing part of a SS interview on a tv program, was taken down. It was part of a program like dateline or something. I simply can't find it these days.

It is the tv interview where she basically says that the family seemed totally normal and in fact bubbly. Which surprised me b/c the R's version is that only PR went to their door, and there was no mention of any of the S's coming out to the car to chat.

I sure wish someone could find that video. It was the only public interview I had ever seen

 

[cynic]

Seems like a couple of yrs ago, the youtube video containing part of a SS interview on a tv program, was taken down. It was part of a program like dateline or something. I simply can't find it these days.

It is the tv interview where she basically says that the family seemed totally normal and in fact bubbly. Which surprised me b/c the R's version is that only PR went to their door, and there was no mention of any of the S's coming out to the car to chat.

I sure wish someone could find that video. It was the only public interview I had ever seen

Susan Stine was interviewed for the 1998 - shamelessly pro-Ramsey - documentary by Michael Tracey & David Mills, “JonBenet's America”
https://youtu.be/hPeJRI33UNQ

"They came to our house and I talked to Patsy for a while maybe 10 or 15 minutes and they all seemed perfectly normal. They were all the same - bubbly about Christmas and about where they were going and we, my husband and I, waved good-bye to them as they were leaving and that was the last time we saw them as an intact family."

 

[Tadpole12]

http://www.acandyrose.com/s-susan-n-glenn-stine.htm


And
21 she came back out and we went to the Stines and
22 she had a gift for them.
23 LOU SMIT: Now did you and Burke and JonBenet
24 stay in the car, do you remember?
25 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't remember.

4 LOU SMIT: And then you go to the Stines?
5 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.
6 LOU SMIT: How far a drive is the Stines?
7 JOHN RAMSEY: Two minutes, three minutes.
8 Pulled up out the front of their house. Patsy
9 certainly went in, I don't think I did. I don't
10 remember if Burke did or not. I don't think
11 JonBenet did. But I don't remember for sure.
12 It wouldn't have been unusual for Burke to go in
13 because that was his buddy, Doug.
14 LOU SMIT: Did you have a gift for Doug?
15 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't know.

PMPT Page 75sb
"When the Ramseys left the Whites' house, they stopped off at their friends the Walkers' to drop off some presents and then stopped briefly at the home of the Stines, who were also

PMPT Page 76sb

friends. Glen Stine, forty-eight, was vice president for budget and finance at CU. The Stines' son, Doug, was about Burke Ramsey's age. Patsy talked to Susan Stine for about ten minutes. By that time, JonBenet was asleep in the backseat of the car."

 

[Tortoise]

[FONT=&amp]17 we had a gift for the Fernies and we debated[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]18 whether we should go over there. But that's[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]19 probably 15 minutes away and we wanted to get home[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]20 and to bed. And we didn't know what time we would[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]21 get back. So we left the Stines and drove home.[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]22 LOU SMIT: So your concern then was mainly you[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]23 didn't want to spend that extra time (INAUDIBLE).[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]24 Why?[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]25 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, it was 15 minutes over[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]0110[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp] 1 there and both the kids might want to go in and it[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp] 2 would have been half an hour, 45 minutes before we[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp] 3 went home. And we had to get up early next[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp] 4 morning. They were tired. They had been up all[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp] 5 day. So we said, well, we'd do that when we got[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp] 6 back.

http://www.acandyrose.com/1998BPD-John-Interview-Complete.htm
[/FONT]

 

[UKGuy]

[FONT=&amp]17 we had a gift for the Fernies and we debated[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]18 whether we should go over there. But that's[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]19 probably 15 minutes away and we wanted to get home[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]20 and to bed. And we didn't know what time we would[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]21 get back. So we left the Stines and drove home.[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]22 LOU SMIT: So your concern then was mainly you[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]23 didn't want to spend that extra time (INAUDIBLE).[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]24 Why?[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]25 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, it was 15 minutes over[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]0110[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp] 1 there and both the kids might want to go in and it[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp] 2 would have been half an hour, 45 minutes before we[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp] 3 went home. And we had to get up early next[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp] 4 morning. They were tired. They had been up all[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp] 5 day. So we said, well, we'd do that when we got[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp] 6 back.

http://www.acandyrose.com/1998BPD-John-Interview-Complete.htm
[/FONT]

Tortoise,
Yup , we assume BR and JonBenet were wide awake enjoying their distribution of Santa largesse. If JonBenet wa sound asleep why does JR not cite this as a reason for heading home?

If you check the sources you find JR working hard to insert himself into the case, e.g. samsonite suitcase, broken window, chair in front of the door, i.e. JR's interaction is not mandated.

It's similar with PR, except its more subtle since people just accept much of Patsy's remarks as gospel.

Consider, from memory, PR in one of the first televised interviews JR remarks no one has been cleared, PR interrupts, and says except Burke

mmm, really, why is Patsy so concerned about 9-year old Burke? He is hardly Freddy Kreuger or Hannibal Lecter, that she has to issue her injunction?

Similar reasoning applies to PR saying she redressed JonBenet in Burke Ramsey's longjohns, no problem if its correct, but what if she is taking a bullet for BR?

The salient point being, for RDI afficionados, is that if Patsy was staging herself out of the case , why should she inject BR, when JonBenet's wardrobe offered a plethora of choice?

Answers on a postcard to Ramsey Enterprises Colorado.

PR tells us herself that JonBenet's pajama bottoms were unavailable, so she went for the long johns, i.e. PR is stating by the time she was involved JonBenet's pajama bottoms had vanished?

What Patsy fails completely to also detail is the underwear JonBenet was wearing, its not noticed, or disregarded as she dresses JonBenet for bed.

Yet JonBenet is revealed to be wearing a Wednesday pair of size-12 Bloomingdales, how come Patsy does not say Oh I put those on her because what she wore to the White's was soiled?

Its obvious the size-12's and longjohns are someone elses attempt at staging?



The staging is not required if all that is needed is evidence of an intruder kiling JonBenet in her bed.

 

[Tortoise]

rsbm

Tortoise,
If you check the sources you find JR working hard to insert himself into the case, e.g. samsonite suitcase, broken window, chair in front of the door, i.e. JR's interaction is not mandated.

My favourite is the extraordinary effort JR went to to make sure they knew he opened the refrigerator.

The staging is not required if all that is needed is evidence of an intruder kiling JonBenet in her bed.

She wasn't dead in bed though?

 

[Cottonstar]

The Rams had their Christmas party on the 23rd. Walker, Stine, Fernie were all at the party. The Rams were supposed to leave on the 26th to Michigan. Why didn’t the Rams just exchange/give the gifts away to the families the 23rd? This whole sequence has never smelled right.


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[BoldBear]

rsbm

My favourite is the extraordinary effort JR went to to make sure they knew he opened the refrigerator.

She wasn't dead in bed though?

Those door latches can sometimes take a lot of force to operate. That would have been a nightmare for me if I had small children. I know it doesn't make sense when you have a ransom note in your hand, but I would have worried about it all the time too.

 

[Tortoise]

Those door latches can sometimes take a lot of force to operate. That would have been a nightmare for me if I had small children. I know it doesn't make sense when you have a ransom note in your hand, but I would have worried about it all the time too.

Oh you think he was really checking to see if she was in there?

 

[UKGuy]

rsbm


My favourite is the extraordinary effort JR went to to make sure they knew he opened the refrigerator.



She wasn't dead in bed though?

Tortoise,
BBM: Really, how do you know? If JonBenet was assaulted in any other family members room, then they do not want her left there, so the default location must be JonBenet's bedroom.

Neither the ransom note or the wine-cellar staging tell us where JonBenet was actually killed, she could have been asphyxiated upstairs?

Kolar's theory makes a lot of sense if you think all the parents did was stage the wine-cellar crime-scene and invent rationale for compromising forensic evidence.

Something about Kolar's theory I cannot square is the train track theory, its a nice explanation, but where does BR get the train tracks from?

The more controversial part is that JonBenet's death might have been premeditated an aspect of BR's personality which includes an obsession with feces, and assaulting JonBenet.


Looks like JonBenet was in either her own bed or one in BR's bedroom, she was dressed for bed and had had her pineapple snack, BR had drunk a glass of tea, and all was well in Ramsey land.

What happened next is up for speculation.

.