The actual vs. desired outcome

[Holdontoyourhat]

Yes, Holdon- I think the first one's it. Either that or Number 6- rage attack gone wrong. Either way- sexual abuse gone wrong or rage attack gone wrong- the killers did not set out to kill JBR. All the more reason for me that it points to a family member and not an intruder.

So you think that probably the original desire was to assault JBR. What about the tape and cord? Do you think they were bought by the R's for an innocent purpose?

 

[DeeDee249]

So you think that probably the original desire was to assault JBR. What about the tape and cord? Do you think they were bought by the R's for an innocent purpose?

Yes, I do. I have said that before. PR likely bought both at McGuckin's for transporting her paintings, and as they were bought shortly before the murder, possibly in order to bring them along on her trip.
I am a former fine arts teacher. As a student, I used to make a sling for transporting unframed watercolors by rolling them up into a tube, taping around the tube (except I used masking tape) and running a thin cord through the opening. If they were thin enough, you could roll them into the cardboard tube inside gift wrap or paper towels, then run a cord through the hole and make a sling to go over your shoulder. They sell hard plastic carriers, but they were too expensive for me as an art student.
I have always thought that both the cord and tape were bought for innocent purposes. Like the paintbrush, they were used for the garotte because they were THERE. Handy right there in the basement, in the paint tote.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Yes, I do. I have said that before. PR likely bought both at McGuckin's for transporting her paintings, and as they were bought shortly before the murder, possibly in order to bring them along on her trip.
I am a former fine arts teacher. As a student, I used to make a sling for transporting unframed watercolors by rolling them up into a tube, taping around the tube (except I used masking tape) and running a thin cord through the opening. If they were thin enough, you could roll them into the cardboard tube inside gift wrap or paper towels, then run a cord through the hole and make a sling to go over your shoulder. They sell hard plastic carriers, but they were too expensive for me as an art student.
I have always thought that both the cord and tape were bought for innocent purposes. Like the paintbrush, they were used for the garotte because they were THERE. Handy right there in the basement, in the paint tote.

So that would've been the first use of the cord and tape, and there wouldn't be any evidence they'd used it elsewhere. OK where's the rest of the cord and tape?

 

[DeeDee249]

So that would've been the first use of the cord and tape, and there wouldn't be any evidence they'd used it elsewhere. OK where's the rest of the cord and tape?

Smuggled out of the house- either the night of the 26th by the Rs, who left the house UNSEARCHED wearing winter coats. OR hidden away by the Rs, to be retrieved later by Aunt P, possibly in that golf bag JR HAD to have IN WINTER IN COLORADO. Please consider how small the tape and cord were. A roll of duct tape is smaller than a grapefruit. The cord was thin and flat. A large amount isn't really that bulky. Either would fit in a winter coat pocket OR be hidden underneath. They are simply not that large an item. BR also likely brought SOMETHING to the White's when he was sent there. No one in LE supervised preparing BR to go leave the house.
The Rs were not stupid. They may have forgotten about the pineapple, but they would have known to hide the tape and cord they used to make the garotte.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Smuggled out of the house- either the night of the 26th by the Rs, who left the house UNSEARCHED wearing winter coats. OR hidden away by the Rs, to be retrieved later by Aunt P, possibly in that golf bag JR HAD to have IN WINTER IN COLORADO. Please consider how small the tape and cord were. A roll of duct tape is smaller than a grapefruit. The cord was thin and flat. A large amount isn't really that bulky. Either would fit in a winter coat pocket OR be hidden underneath. They are simply not that large an item. BR also likely brought SOMETHING to the White's when he was sent there. No one in LE supervised preparing BR to go leave the house.
The Rs were not stupid. They may have forgotten about the pineapple, but they would have known to hide the tape and cord they used to make the garotte.

Original purchase of cord for innocent purposes. Not yet used for innocent purpose when adapted for use on garrote. Secretly hidden and/or smuggled out. Is this right?

 

[DeeDee249]

Original purchase of cord for innocent purposes. Not yet used for innocent purpose when adapted for use on garrote. Secretly hidden and/or smuggled out. Is this right?

Right. That's how I see it, IMHO.

 

[JMO8778]

What about murder for thrill/sex?

This is where the perp set out to kill JBR for the thrill or the sex of it. That again seems like too much risk to take for a pedophile. Usually they don't work in the house where the parents are. I'd think if it were a murder for the thrill/sex, the perp would've taken JBR to another location.

I agree.

Its possible though. The fancy garrote and JBR's condition says she may have been murdered for thrill and/or sex.

the perp's behavior does not,though.IF that were the case,said perp would want to get her out of the house first,he would make SURE he had her out of the house first,to ensure he had her to himself and to ensure he'd be alone w/ her.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Right. That's how I see it, IMHO.

Is this the first time they used this type of cord or tape for the innocent purposes, or had they used the same type before and and ran out?

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

I agree.



the perp's behavior does not,though.IF that were the case,said perp would want to get her out of the house first,he would make SURE he had her out of the house first,to ensure he had her to himself and to ensure he'd be alone w/ her.

OK. I'd agree pedophile doesn't want JBR in her own house while her parents are there.

I'd say also that kidnap for $118,000 would get her out of the house too. JBR would be the bargaining chip for the money, and that chip isn't much good in the house, alive or dead.

 

[JMO8778]

Yes, Holdon- I think the first one's it. Either that or Number 6- rage attack gone wrong. Either way- sexual abuse gone wrong or rage attack gone wrong- the killers did not set out to kill JBR. All the more reason for me that it points to a family member and not an intruder.
Many people get confused by the "accident" concept here. When we read things like "this was no accident"- it implies premeditated murder. While I am firmly in the RDI camp, I do not think for a moment that they planned to kill their daughter that night. The head blow was intentional (a shove in anger, a whack with a bat or flashlight or golf club) but done in a split-second of emotion- rage or to stop her from screaming. But her death was not what was intended. Her silence was.

sure,but by intentional,I don't necessarily think it means planned..no one planned to kill her beforehand that night..however,what if a split second decision was made to do away with her? would that still be an accident? what if it was pondered for more that a split second..over a period of a few minutes,perhaps? (second degree murder,I believe).But then,(either in ST's book,or PMPT)...a description of everyone coming out of the meeting of evidence leaves some saying, 'looks like we got it,Murder One'.

This may sound strange coming from an RDI, but regardless of what anyone thinks about the Rs and their parenting skills- regardless of how PR paraded her daughter in the pageants, and even regardless of whether JR (or JAR or BR) was sexually abusing JBR, they loved their daughter, and were both horrified that she'd been killed, though they were responsible. In the case of sexual abuse- it sadly does happen with little girls and fathers (and stepfathers) but rarely leads to the murder of the child. I can't think of any case where a father killed his little girl after abusing her. This kind of abuse usually goes on for years, until it is discovered, the child grows old enough to resist or grows past the abusers age of attraction. With JBR, her death stopped what the abuser was unable to stop him/herself.
Here's another thought- I believe they were both actually relieved she was dead. Here's why- PR had been building up the "Mega-JBR" thing into an entity of its own, and one she was frightened of losing control over if she died. It was getting away from her, and she knew it. Even her friends knew it. The crescendo of emotion leading to her death instantly put a stop to something PR could not stop herself.
As for JR, if he was abusing JBR, as I think he was, her death gave him the same release- it stopped what he was unable to stop himself. And if PR was aware of or suspected the abuse, it was double release for her. Mega-JBR had ceased to exist, and her fears that her husband was sexually abusing her daughter were instantly and forever rendered moot.
That explains a lot about their post-death behavior. For years after.

well-said,only thing I would add is that it's common to blame the victim,even if it's a child.the killer rationalizes that he/she couldn't be all that bad of a person,so it must be (at least in part) the victim's fault.
SD mentioned the 'Snow White' syndrome,and I wonder about that,too.I think it could be plausible.If JR was abusing 'Mega-JonBenet',then Patsy wasn't the fairest one of them all anymore,(even if it was of her own creation),and I think it very likely she couldn't handle that.

 

[icedtea4me]

Yes, Holdon- I think the first one's it. Either that or Number 6- rage attack gone wrong. Either way- sexual abuse gone wrong or rage attack gone wrong- the killers did not set out to kill JBR. All the more reason for me that it points to a family member and not an intruder.
Many people get confused by the "accident" concept here. When we read things like "this was no accident"- it implies premeditated murder. While I am firmly in the RDI camp, I do not think for a moment that they planned to kill their daughter that night. The head blow was intentional (a shove in anger, a whack with a bat or flashlight or golf club) but done in a split-second of emotion- rage or to stop her from screaming. But her death was not what was intended. Her silence was.
This may sound strange coming from an RDI, but regardless of what anyone thinks about the Rs and their parenting skills- regardless of how PR paraded her daughter in the pageants, and even regardless of whether JR (or JAR or BR) was sexually abusing JBR, they loved their daughter, and were both horrified that she'd been killed, though they were responsible. In the case of sexual abuse- it sadly does happen with little girls and fathers (and stepfathers) but rarely leads to the murder of the child. I can't think of any case where a father killed his little girl after abusing her. This kind of abuse usually goes on for years, until it is discovered, the child grows old enough to resist or grows past the abusers age of attraction. With JBR, her death stopped what the abuser was unable to stop him/herself.
Here's another thought- I believe they were both actually relieved she was dead. Here's why- PR had been building up the "Mega-JBR" thing into an entity of its own, and one she was frightened of losing control over if she died. It was getting away from her, and she knew it. Even her friends knew it. The crescendo of emotion leading to her death instantly put a stop to something PR could not stop herself.
As for JR, if he was abusing JBR, as I think he was, her death gave him the same release- it stopped what he was unable to stop himself. And if PR was aware of or suspected the abuse, it was double release for her. Mega-JBR had ceased to exist, and her fears that her husband was sexually abusing her daughter were instantly and forever rendered moot.
That explains a lot about their post-death behavior. For years after.

:clap: :clap: :clap:


-Tea

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

The cord and tape appear just long enough to kill JBR and then all trace vanishes again. There's no evidence that cord or tape, or even similar cord or tape, was ever used for any legitimate application at any time, before or after the murder.

It would be a more believable RDI if the cord and tape were purchased for an intended assault or murder. That would at least explain why there's no cord or tape except that which was found on JBR.

For now, it seems unlikely that there was a rage or assault for control on JBR that accidentally killed her, because there's no evidence there was ever any legitimate use for this cord or tape that was supposedly purchased and supposedly smuggled out.

 

[coloradokares]

The cord and tape appear just long enough to kill JBR and then all trace vanishes again. There's no evidence that cord or tape, or even similar cord or tape, was ever used for any legitimate application at any time, before or after the murder.

It would be a more believable RDI if the cord and tape were purchased for an intended assault or murder. That would at least explain why there's no cord or tape except that which was found on JBR.

For now, it seems unlikely that there was a rage or assault for control on JBR that accidentally killed her, because there's no evidence there was ever any legitimate use for this cord or tape that was supposedly purchased and supposedly smuggled out.

Oh but it did have a legitimate reason for purchase the painting slings.

 

[trixie]

:laugh:

I think the original plot was to get some sleep that night. Nothing more, nothing less.

Burke slept, John slept, JonBenet died, Patsy pulled an all-nighter.

:laugh: This tickled my funny bone! And I agree with it too.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Oh but it did have a legitimate reason for purchase the painting slings.

There were no painting slings found that used any of the cord or tape. The cord and tape came and went with the crime.

Its very unlikely JBR died as the result of an accident, because there's no evidence the cord and tape were already on hand. Unlike the paintbrush, paper, and pen.

 

[BOESP]

There were no painting slings found that used any of the cord or tape. The cord and tape came and went with the crime.

Its very unlikely JBR died as the result of an accident, because there's no evidence the cord and tape were already on hand. Unlike the paintbrush, paper, and pen.

It is very common to use "duct" tape and a slick-type cord (such as parachute cord) to wrap, roll, and/or bind and back paintings for travel or protection, particularly oil paintings. They are a part of most every painter's kit I've seen, along with masking tape or draftsman's tape. They are used at the time you carry them or for temporarily mounting paintings, or for carrying heavy canvas. It's not something necessarily prepared ahead of time. Oil paintings, in particular, can be temporarily mounted using the duct tape and brown paper and a simple display frame. The same for watercolors. If I recall, weren't some brown paper and blue paper bits found on JonBenet?

When you have a fine-arts instructor who has already stated this and a couple of painters here confirm these uses, it can't be dismissed. Of course, we could be hired hands just saying what we've been paid to say, but I know beyond doubt its a fact that I paint and I have some confidence in the others who've made these claims as well. Dismiss our view if you like. :snooty:

I don't think we can assume much just because the tape nor cord was found. I don't think we can assume much either just because the Ramseys said they didn't own any similar tape or cord. What is forensically useful are the fibers consistent with Patsy's jacket and where they were found. Fibers entwined in a ligature noose and found under the tape on JonBenet's mouth hardly seem coincidental. I might question the fibers inside the blanket since Patsy rolled around on JonBenet upstairs after her body was brought up but that won't account for those entwined in the cord. It won't account for fibers found under the tape either -- John said he immediately ripped that tape off (and we assume threw it on the wine cellar floor based on Fleet White's reported statement). It would be extremely unlikely John transferred those fibers in such a brief movement.

 

[icedtea4me]

There were no painting slings found that used any of the cord or tape. The cord and tape came and went with the crime.

She could have decided to switch over to different cord and tape for the painting slings.


-Tea

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

She could have decided to switch over to different cord and tape for the painting slings.


-Tea

What painting slings??

 

[coloradokares]

So that would've been the first use of the cord and tape, and there wouldn't be any evidence they'd used it elsewhere. OK where's the rest of the cord and tape?

Aunt Pam Then it was on to Mickey D's to get some courtesy refresments not that Aunt Pam was courteous, dont get confused . How to describe Aunt Pams behavior....braggin how shed made her first million and could not seem to spring for her own McDonalds and screaming to get those gloves off her hands. I swear Id of gone through all that contraband evidence that walked out of that house and exchanged the rubber gloves for handcuffs and there would I am sure have been enough to make the charges stick. That whole deal would have come tumbling down like a house of cards. That is my opinion.

 

[coloradokares]

What painting slings??

You need to acquaint yourself to the facts of this case if you dont know what painting slings. Patsy was into painting and she would make slings for transporting those paintings out of the very materialls purchased at McGuckins . The very materials that also could make a garrote along with the broken paint brush and tape Jon Benets already silenced screams.