The actual vs. desired outcome

[Holdontoyourhat]

Well, yeah, that and breathe.

As if RDI was alive or something. Thats an assumption based on a whole series of unsubstantiated and uncorroborated claims:

JBR was abused prior to that night.
Painting cord 'slings' existed at some point in the R's house.
PR was violently angry with JBR.
PR wrote the note.
PR bought the cord.
The cord was fashioned as a crime scene staging prop.
The DNA belongs to a factory worker.

These are all self contradictory fictional accounts apparently lacking any viable support or consensus from LE.

 

[Ames]

Cops were called pigs, true. But what you said isn't true. Spend more than one minute looking it up, and you'll find that wasn't the context they were using it in.

Charles Manson said that 'pig' meant 'the establishment', and another Manson victims wall had 'political piggy' written on it. Now does that sound like policemen to you??

The establishment = law enforcement

Political piggy = lawmakers that make the laws.

So, yes, that sounds like policemen, and lawmakers...

 

[Ames]

The victims in the Charles Manson cases were rich, affluent, and its they who were considered the pigs or piggies, not policeman as another poster incorrectly asserted.

Of course 'fat cats' and 'pigs' are related. They're both socioeconomic references that were used in the written rantings found at crime scenes of vicious killers. To say simply 'no' they aren't is to obfuscate the truth. Of course, thats what RDI has to do all the time just to exist.

From WIKIPEDIA...


The hypotheses of homicide [change]
They are not known exactly the motives that pushed the gang of Manson to kill. Some experts advance the hypothesis that Manson was obsessed from the fame: not having succeeded in becoming a rockstar as you/he/she had always dreamt, he would have chosen the easiest alternative: of the insane homicides that attracted the attention of the public opinion.
Others believe that Charles, lives in the poverty and in the middle of the road, he hated the rich and famous people. Because of this he wanted to kill more illustrious people possible.
Others believe that with the writing "DEATH TO PIGS" Manson wanted to show his own fury towards the stars of the show, calling them "pigs" for their worldly life and flood of excesses.

Holdon....nowhere does it say for SURE what "DEATH TO PIGS" means....looks like everybody has different opinions. The only person that would know...is Charlie Manson himself....and, by the way....what in the world has this got to do with the JonBenet Ramsey case?

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

From WIKIPEDIA...


The hypotheses of homicide [change]
They are not known exactly the motives that pushed the gang of Manson to kill. Some experts advance the hypothesis that Manson was obsessed from the fame: not having succeeded in becoming a rockstar as you/he/she had always dreamt, he would have chosen the easiest alternative: of the insane homicides that attracted the attention of the public opinion.
Others believe that Charles, lives in the poverty and in the middle of the road, he hated the rich and famous people. Because of this he wanted to kill more illustrious people possible.
Others believe that with the writing "DEATH TO PIGS" Manson wanted to show his own fury towards the stars of the show, calling them "pigs" for their worldly life and flood of excesses.

Holdon....nowhere does it say for SURE what "DEATH TO PIGS" means....looks like everybody has different opinions. The only person that would know...is Charlie Manson himself....and, by the way....what in the world has this got to do with the JonBenet Ramsey case?

Wow, I think your post supports my argument on Manson better than my post. Manson's hate of the rich and famous is ALL OVER the JBR murder, as the RN author calls JR a 'fat cat', an obvious reference to his status. The ransom note could be a reference to JR's bonus, probably to highlight the excesses you noted above.

Thanks.

 

[JMO8778]

From WIKIPEDIA...


The hypotheses of homicide [change]
They are not known exactly the motives that pushed the gang of Manson to kill. Some experts advance the hypothesis that Manson was obsessed from the fame: not having succeeded in becoming a rockstar as you/he/she had always dreamt, he would have chosen the easiest alternative: of the insane homicides that attracted the attention of the public opinion.
Others believe that Charles, lives in the poverty and in the middle of the road, he hated the rich and famous people. Because of this he wanted to kill more illustrious people possible.
Others believe that with the writing "DEATH TO PIGS" Manson wanted to show his own fury towards the stars of the show, calling them "pigs" for their worldly life and flood of excesses.

Holdon....nowhere does it say for SURE what "DEATH TO PIGS" means....looks like everybody has different opinions. The only person that would know...is Charlie Manson himself....and, by the way....what in the world has this got to do with the JonBenet Ramsey case?

not a darn thing,he's grasping for straws.it's the old IDI spin dr team at work.

 

[Ames]

Wow, I think your post supports my argument on Manson better than my post. Manson's hate of the rich and famous is ALL OVER the JBR murder, as the RN author calls JR a 'fat cat', an obvious reference to his status. The ransom note could be a reference to JR's bonus, probably to highlight the excesses you noted above.

Thanks.

LOL..you are welcome.

I can admit when I am wrong....but, even though it says SOME PEOPLE believe that is what Manson meant, by 'Death to Pigs'....it doesn't state for SURE that's what he meant. Like I said..you can not say for sure...and I can not say for sure...what "Death to Pigs" really means. And unless you can prove what "death to pigs" means...then you cannot say that I am wrong....as you did in an earlier post. We will have to call a truce on this one...

 

[BBB167893]

Were'nt you going to elaborate on the garrote ligature cord fibers found on JBR's bed? And how to rearrainge RDI accident/coverup to accomodate these fibers?

I've believed for a while that the staging began in her bedroom.

Please note that 'could not be excluded' is RDI's way of saying PR wrote the note,

You're more right than you know. Most QD analysis is based on elimination, not matching.

With Epstein "strong indications" and Liebman "90-95%", both HIRED by RDI and they still leave it open.

I would have thought that showed professionalism.

BTW, both 'disguised handwriting' and 'staging' are concepts that allow the available evidence to be interpreted in ways other than what they appear to be.

Wrong. Those are concrete concepts that many, many people have devoted their lives to understanding. The note was block printed, Holdon. That is a CLASSIC method of disguise.

Only after-the-fact armchair experts with autopsy photos and text.

Armchair experts? Hardly. These were the top of the top, with the credentials to prove it. If after-the-fact analyses weren't worth anything, there wouldn't BE any trials because no cases could be proven.

Many hired by the tabloids.

ONE, not many.

BESOP, really I wanna be RDI. Give me some corroboration and I'll gladly be like you, content that while there were no arrests (the R's being rich and all), at least we know where the killer is.

I don't believe you.

Holdon, I've studied true crime for years. Murder is my personal favorite. All kinds of it. Murder by race, by color, by religion, by ethnic origin, by national origin, by age, by gender, by occupation, by income level, by geographical location, by season of the year, by time of day. Murder by poison, by stabbing, by gunshot, by beating, by strangulation.

Take murder by poison, subdivided by the different types of poison, such as corrosive, irritant, systemic, narcotic, alkaloid, protein, neurotoxic, and so on.

Murder by gunshot, subdivided by different bullets calibers, subdivided by the different kinds of guns, revolvers, pistols, rifles, shotguns and on. Subdivided by manufacturers, like Colt, Smith & Wesson, Sturm Ruger, etc.

Murder by strangulation, subdivided by manual and ligature, subdivided by the different kinds of ligatures, such as ropes, cords, wires, chains, rubber tubing and clothing.

But in all that, neither I nor anyone else has ever come across a single case even remotely resembling this one. No, sir. You and the rest of the IDIs will have to come up with something monumentally better than what I've heard so far. Like the showers at my high school gym, no soap.

 

[coloradokares]

Wow, I think your post supports my argument on Manson better than my post. Manson's hate of the rich and famous is ALL OVER the JBR murder, as the RN author calls JR a 'fat cat', an obvious reference to his status. The ransom note could be a reference to JR's bonus, probably to highlight the excesses you noted above.

Thanks.

Next you will claim Manson was behind the Intruder

 

[DeeDee249]

Actually, if you revisit the Manson murders, you will see that Charles Manson was an untalented, failed wannabe writer who had had some business dealings that went sour with Terry Melcher, the son of actress Doris Day. Manson had sought a contract for his work, and when that did not happen,(and this so SO typical of untalented losers), he blamed Melcher for screwing him. The home that the Manson killers invaded had originally belonged to Terry Melcher, and it was HE who Manson actually targeted for murder. Melcher no longer lived at the house, but when Manson and his band of demons broke in, they killed whoever they flound living there, thinking it was Melcher's friends or family.
I believe the "pigs" Manson referred to were the rich and famous, who he hated and resented because he had failed to become one of them.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Actually, if you revisit the Manson murders, you will see that Charles Manson was an untalented, failed wannabe writer who had had some business dealings that went sour with Terry Melcher, the son of actress Doris Day. Manson had sought a contract for his work, and when that did not happen,(and this so SO typical of untalented losers), he blamed Melcher for screwing him. The home that the Manson killers invaded had originally belonged to Terry Melcher, and it was HE who Manson actually targeted for murder. Melcher no longer lived at the house, but when Manson and his band of demons broke in, they killed whoever they flound living there, thinking it was Melcher's friends or family.
I believe the "pigs" Manson referred to were the rich and famous, who he hated and resented because he had failed to become one of them.

Its not like that. Charles Manson isn't simply an untalented loser who suddenly snapped because things didn't go his way one day. Charles Manson was actually a 'career criminal' with several violent assaults and felonies under his belt, who evolved himself into something of a cult leader. He dabbled in music. His childhood was one trauma after another, which predestined him for big trouble.

JBR's could be a cult murder. The evidence of that is the ransom note that identifies a 'foreign faction' and a 'group of individuals'. The only way you're going to get several people to go along with a brutal child murder is with some sort of brainwashing, and nothings better than a cult to do that.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

LOL..you are welcome.

I can admit when I am wrong....but, even though it says SOME PEOPLE believe that is what Manson meant, by 'Death to Pigs'....it doesn't state for SURE that's what he meant. Like I said..you can not say for sure...and I can not say for sure...what "Death to Pigs" really means. And unless you can prove what "death to pigs" means...then you cannot say that I am wrong....as you did in an earlier post. We will have to call a truce on this one...

Charles Manson himself said what pig means: its 'the establishment'.

Anyway, it seems reasonable that RN author's 'fat cats' and Charlie Manson's 'pigs' could be similar. They both relate to affluence, wealth, excess, etc.

 

[JMO8778]

I think someone should start writing that comic book...

 

[Ames]

Charles Manson himself said what pig means: its 'the establishment'.

Anyway, it seems reasonable that RN author's 'fat cats' and Charlie Manson's 'pigs' could be similar. They both relate to affluence, wealth, excess, etc.

The establishment....there are all sorts of establishments....what establishment is he talking about?? And how do any of us actually know what he meant by that?? Pigs is not slang anywhere in the world that I am aware of, for wealth or excess. Back when the murders occurred, PIGS meant police...or any law enforcement. If DEATH TO PIGS meant the wealthy, it was something that he made up in his own mind.

I agree, if he DID mean wealth, fat cat does mean the same thing. But, I still don't think that there were even one intruder, much less three of them.

 

[jeena]

Actually, if you revisit the Manson murders, you will see that Charles Manson was an untalented, failed wannabe writer who had had some business dealings that went sour with Terry Melcher, the son of actress Doris Day. Manson had sought a contract for his work, and when that did not happen,(and this so SO typical of untalented losers), he blamed Melcher for screwing him. The home that the Manson killers invaded had originally belonged to Terry Melcher, and it was HE who Manson actually targeted for murder. Melcher no longer lived at the house, but when Manson and his band of demons broke in, they killed whoever they flound living there, thinking it was Melcher's friends or family.
I believe the "pigs" Manson referred to were the rich and famous, who he hated and resented because he had failed to become one of them.

Yes, and I think Terry Melcher and Candace Bergen moved out of Cielo Drive because they were afraid of Manson. I was in Hollywood in April 2007, and when I mentioned this to someone who makes a living based on Hollywood tragedy he disagreed with me, but I think it's more than likely.
I was driving around near Cielo Drive, and the "murder house" as been torn down and a Italian villa has been built on the property, it looks like a big monstrosity from the road.

Anyway, an interesting point about the Manson case is one of the female members (I think it was Sandra Goode) of the Manson cult had lived at Cielo Drive with her father before the Polanski's moved in, and Tex Watson visited several times so he knew the layout! Bugliosi, the D.A., didn't bring this out at trial because he wanted to pin the murders on Manson, and didn't want the jurors to cast all the blame on Watson and the girls.

The Ramsey and Sharon Tate case might be similar due to the fact if an IDI, the person could be a serial killer, known to the Ramsey's. Many celebrities befriended Manson not knowing he was a killer. JR admitted several people had keys to his home, so the layout would be familiar to the killer as in the Tate case, assuming the intruder is someone who had access to the house.

Note to DeeDee: Manson didn't break into the Polanski/Tate house as you stated above, he didn't go with them, that's why Bugliosi had to be careful of what he said at trial and left out the info of Watson knowing the layout, he needed to convince the jury that Manson masterminded the murders and brainwashed his followers because he wasn't at the murder scene.

 

[Solace]

LOL (but your post does seem a little excited, I mean you're even repeating yourself)

I know its ridiculous. But maybe the intruder-perp, apparently fascinated with crime movies, could be obsessed with crime itself.

Maybe thats why the ransom note was so long and handwritten. Maybe thats why the parents were home at the time (JBR not taken from the street). Perhaps the perp wanted the crime to appear super-criminal either to himself, or to others.

The perps a braggart.

You should know Holdon.

 

[Solace]

Maybe two went upstairs while the third waited. These are probably alot like Manson followers, brainwashed enough to do almost anything.

That RN is politically charged in the exact same way the Manson murders were. Dont you think, that 'Death to Pigs' is the ideological equivalent to 'you're not the only fat cat so dont think that killing will be difficult'?

Maybe they stopped over at the MacReynolds and brought them along Holdon. Maybe there were five. FIVE VERY VERY CLEAN intruders. :slap:

 

[Solace]

LOL..you are welcome.

I can admit when I am wrong....but, even though it says SOME PEOPLE believe that is what Manson meant, by 'Death to Pigs'....it doesn't state for SURE that's what he meant. Like I said..you can not say for sure...and I can not say for sure...what "Death to Pigs" really means. And unless you can prove what "death to pigs" means...then you cannot say that I am wrong....as you did in an earlier post. We will have to call a truce on this one...

Ames,

Once again Holdon's back is up against the wall as far as facts and the reference to Pigs is just another example of how she does not understand what is in front of her. PPolice are there to make sure there is law and order. Manson took police to be the enemy and he referenced them as pigs along with anyone who was rich.

And that, as they say, is that.

 

[Solace]

Actually, if you revisit the Manson murders, you will see that Charles Manson was an untalented, failed wannabe writer who had had some business dealings that went sour with Terry Melcher, the son of actress Doris Day. Manson had sought a contract for his work, and when that did not happen,(and this so SO typical of untalented losers), he blamed Melcher for screwing him. The home that the Manson killers invaded had originally belonged to Terry Melcher, and it was HE who Manson actually targeted for murder. Melcher no longer lived at the house, but when Manson and his band of demons broke in, they killed whoever they flound living there, thinking it was Melcher's friends or family.
I believe the "pigs" Manson referred to were the rich and famous, who he hated and resented because he had failed to become one of them.

Yes, the rich and the famous were also referred to as pigs. Anyone with money and those that guarded them, e.g. police.

 

[Solace]

Charles Manson himself said what pig means: its 'the establishment'.

Anyway, it seems reasonable that RN author's 'fat cats' and Charlie Manson's 'pigs' could be similar. They both relate to affluence, wealth, excess, etc.

What are you bringing Manson into this for. It is hard enough for you to concentrate on one case. :slap:

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

The establishment....there are all sorts of establishments....what establishment is he talking about?? And how do any of us actually know what he meant by that?? Pigs is not slang anywhere in the world that I am aware of, for wealth or excess. Back when the murders occurred, PIGS meant police...or any law enforcement. If DEATH TO PIGS meant the wealthy, it was something that he made up in his own mind.

I agree, if he DID mean wealth, fat cat does mean the same thing. But, I still don't think that there were even one intruder, much less three of them.

Between the front two smoke stacks is a floating, you guessed it, pig.