The Big Question

[tumble]

If Karr took JB downstairs by saying her parents wanted her, would a 6 year old really have remained quiet through all of this? Would she have voluntarily gone to the lower level? If Karr forced her, did he tape her mouth before they went to the basement? How did Karr remove his fingerprints from duct tape? Ever try to tear duct tape with gloves on?

The tape on her mouth had perfect imprints of her lips left on it indicating she was dead or unconcious when it was applied. Which means staging, why duct tape the mouth of an unconcious child.

Would she have remained quiet being awaken or stumbled upon by a intruder, IMO not very likely, she was afraid of the dark...

How did Karr remove his fingerprints from duct tape?

Leather gloves maybe. But I think this would have showed up after analysis.
Fiber gloves would have left an abundant amount of fibres on the glue.

 

[Bev]

just one of the dumber of Smit's proclamations. The walkways might have been clear of snow, but one thing they wouldn't be clear of is frost. In fact, a very light layer of frost would have covered the driveway, the sidewalks, the walkways and the grass. Why? Because there is always a dew point level that peaks during the early morning hours and if it is cold, the dew frosts over.

 

[tumble]

just one of the dumber of Smit's proclamations. The walkways might have been clear of snow, but one thing they wouldn't be clear of is frost. In fact, a very light layer of frost would have covered the driveway, the sidewalks, the walkways and the grass. Why? Because there is always a dew point level that peaks during the early morning hours and if it is cold, the dew frosts over.

Yes, very strange to dismiss the footprint issue by looking at photos from 9.00.
Why not just believe the cops coming to the house in the morning who said there were no prints, maybe they saw frosted dew on the pathways or maybe even snow that had melted my 9.00. John Fernies prints seem to already have melted away by 8.00.

 

[Bev]

Just idle speculation, but I sometimes wonder if one of the reasons the body was left in the house, is that a car's tires would have left tracks in the driveway.

 

[tumble]

Just idle speculation, but I sometimes wonder if one of the reasons the body was left in the house, is that a car's tires would have left tracks in the driveway.

I think there were many reasons the body was kept at home. And leaving tiretracks out of the garage may very well be one of them.
If Burke was not involved leaving the house without him may kept them from doing it.
Also I think they were concerned about a 'proper burial' among other things.

 

[BBB167893]

"I think it is also important to recognize that JBR's DNA in the blood in which the foreign DNA was found was not that degraded. If they were deposited at the same time they should be of the same quality."

Exactly

"Some say fibres were found on the paintbrush...so? Maybe she was in her basement painting xmas morning or maybe they transfered from JonBenet to the burh or whatever. Even if she didnt, fibres can be in the air and can get onto people as they walk around."

She said she never wore that sweater in the basement!

"If it was such a simple case pointing to their guilt then obviously they'd have been arrested for it but they haven't so there is OBVIOUSLY something that shows it isn't so simple like some here are trying to imply."

The cops WANTED to arrest them! But the prosecutors said no. Why? Because they couldn't figure out which parent did what.

"The above quote really stands out to me, and bothers me greatly as to how exactly were these fibers explained away?"

They WEREN'T! That's the thing!

"In other words why did they not carry more weight in solving the case and a possible arrest? How in the world would fibers from a mother's sweater be intwined in tape or the garotte if the person wearing the sweater was not there?"

That's the big question.

"I have watched it on the news and even better on Closing arguments with Nancy Grace and I just dont see a motive for the mother."

Hannah, most people think it was unintentional.

"But then again John Mark Karr had very many holes in his confession. Like the fact that he said the 2 abrasions on her body where from him using a taser gun, when the autopsy report said they were from her clothes or buttons on her close. Then he goes on to say he drugged her, and again the autopsy said nothing about drugs in her system."

No, unless you know something I don't, it was SMIT who said they were Taser marks.

"I could be wrong. I'm only 15 and I'd like to grow up and take a career in the police force. Dont be to hard on me haha."

And i thought I was young!


"And then...reading in the autopsy report... I'm really curious about this sad note: "Abrasion and vascular congestion of vaginal mucosa."
Did this type of congestion occur due to a "stimulation" of the area (prior to death), or is this type of congestion consistent with asphyxiation?"

Not only "stimulation" before her death, but very likely from before that NIGHT!

"If, at first, there was an accident or a stroke of anger that caused a head bang, it seems very likely JBR would have gone unconcious. There was no laceration it seems, so however her head got banged, it doesn't seem possible that someone looking at the head would have seen the huge fracture to the skull (to say, oh dear, we better finish her off.) If this occurred prior to the ligature, whoever had her at the time (if they had a brain), would have noticed she was still breathing - and if they checked, her heart was still beating. The staging of a ligature would have had to be done very quickly afterwards to show the bruising that it did without a long time for the brain to continue bleeding."

Actually, some pathologists think that there was up to an HOUR between the head bang and the garrote.

"Could it have been a molestation, causing the congestion, then the child screamed and got banged on the head to shut her up? After the head bang...perhaps things had gone too far, so a quick staging with the ligature had to be done?"

Possible.

"The tape on her mouth had perfect imprints of her lips left on it indicating she was dead or unconcious when it was applied. Which means staging, why duct tape the mouth of an unconcious child."

Right.

 

[Texana]

My big question has always been...why the grand jury didn't indict anyone.

I'm sure it's been answered before, but I'd like to hear it again, please.

 

[BBB167893]

"My big question has always been...why the grand jury didn't indict anyone.

I'm sure it's been answered before, but I'd like to hear it again, please."

Okay; number one: naivete. They couldn't believe a parent could kill their child like this, notwithstanding the numerous murders of children by their parents.

Two: they couldn't decide which parent did what specifically.

 

[aspidistra]

With the arrest of Karr and everything that has come out, some previously puzzling things could be explained. These are details that people say are "impossible", such as the intruder spending hours in the house writing the note. I don't think these are at all impossible but certain other things are way more puzzling.

- if he attended the party at the Ramsey's on the 23rd, with his brother (this is the story he told the woman in Calif. in 2001), he would have not only met JBR, spent time with her so she would not fear him when he appeared in her house on Xmas night; he would have chatted with the guests and found out the Ramseys would be at the Whites' house for a party on the 25th, and thus he would know he had a certain number of hours to explore the house, write a practice note and a note, before they returned home. All this hinges on his being at that party. Is there a list of guests? The Ramsey family all have said they don't remember Karr. If Karr's brother worked for Ramsey, and Karr was tagging along at the party, it's possible no one would notice him. In fact this intruder theory was talked about on forums 8 years ago, the young man who was a pedophile who went and waited in the house, exploring it, for hours while they were at the party.

There are two parties - the Ramsey party on the 23rd where he would have attended, circulated, met and played with JBR, at some time unlocking the basement window to let himself in at a later time; and the White party on the 25th where he knew they would be going for several hours and which gave him time to enter the Ramsey house thru the window, explore it, write the note, and wait until they came home. All this hinges on him being in Colorado and attending that party with his brother. His wife says he was with her at Xmas 1996. If it is proven that he was really with his wife in Alabama, then all the rest of his stories fall apart and he is just a wacko.

- knowing what we know now about his obsession with little girls and even his desire to become female now, the odd things done in redressing her and staging the body would fit with his personality. (the evil side of him did the crime; the gentle side of him redressed her and arranged the body, etc.) What doesn't fit is the violent crime. In his own words now he says it was an accident and he is sorry she died. He has never confessed to killing her, only to being there and not being innocent. I think this points to multiple personality (he disapproves of his violent side and doesn't feel it was his "real" self). Either that or he had a partner, which seems improbable since he is such a loner type.

These are just some of the many points of discussion based on what has unfolded so far - certain things could already be explainable if he is the one. To my eye the handwriting on the note could be his. It is very similar to the yearbook, in parts, especially the d's and a's. But other things have to be explained.

What is the most puzzling is why an effeminate man like this would be attracted to little girls. Why if he loved them and loved JBR he would commit a brutal crime, and use such overkill, and call it an accident.

We now know he went to a sex change clinic. I noted in photos he looks like he already had surgery to remove his adam's apple. He already had the facial hair removed and has the white skin and slight frame that make him look so feminine. He appears to be wearing mascara and eyeliner all the time. What is the story here? There is no evidence he molested or killed anyone else, but a lot of proof he was a pedophile. This is one reason he is seen as just a wacko by so many.

If he was attracted to girls he was a heterosexual pedophile. So why would he become a woman now, ten years later? Do men become lesbian pedophile transsexuals (I have never heard of such a thing), or is he trying to make amends now by getting rid of that part of himself that did the crime, or what?For me this is much more puzzling than figuring out how and why he wrote the ransom note, or other details. I feel he has been wracked with guilt for ten years and that is the only reason he was caught - he never would have been caught, if he had not talked to people about it, especially the long emails to the professor. This too indicates a split personality.

He said something like, It was not the way it seems. This could mean anything - it could even mean he took the fall for someone else. We do not know, we just have pieces of information, some may be true, some may be made up; but some are actual fact: evidence found; known actions of his, etc.

Many theories have been proposed, including that he was in a child *advertiser censored* ring; that there was a group molesting her, either including the parents or not; that he didn't know the family or JBR at all but learned about it all thru studying the case and is fantasizing that he was involved; only one theory can be true and I don't think we have all the pieces of the puzzle yet.

 

[aspidistra]

In a story today from Denver
http://www.9news.com

It is noted that other physical evidence which was preserved may link Karr with the crime.
- the palm print on the cellar door
- the shoe print
- hair and fibre samples

Suppose the dna matches Karr, and the palm print matches Karr. Wouldn't that be convincing proof he was there? We have to wait and see the results of the tests.

 

[PagingDrDetect]

Originally Posted by Lurking Steve
But dumping the body is pretty easy. Just drive up the mountains onto a forest service road, hike a little bit, and place her down.

Dumping the body is how most people get caught, and if the Ramsey's were involved in this, they would have been terrified of that.

Relocating the body leaves one wide open to being seen. It would also leave a plethora of evidence. Consider how taking away and dumping the body would leave a trail right back to you...

--You would have to put the body in your car which would possibly leave criminal evidence behind in the car,

--You have to open the garage door and drive away which VERY close neighbors would probably see, hear or both. Recall that this is Christmas night, and many people stay up very late partying. IIRC, there was a big party in progress down the street.

--You may be remembered by someone who drove past you on your way to where ever you decided to dump the body,

--You have to carry the body into a wooded area or field or otherwise secluded place which will leave forencic evidence on you and your clothes, particularly your shoes, so then you would have to think about not only getting rid of those shoes and clothes, but cleaning up yourself without leaving any forencic evidence in your shower drain. Many a perp has been nailed by some teensy bit of dirt or vegetable matter lodged in their drain, shoes, shoe lace, clothing, hair, etc.,

--You have to drive back to your street, into your driveway and into your garage again (same problem with neighbors seeing or hearing as when you left),

--Your car would have engine evidence of about the time it was last driven,

--At some point, the body will be found. If it's your bad luck that it's found soon enough, your physical evidence is going to be all over it.

--How would it be explained that an intruder took the body and left it somewhere without any foreign evidence on it??? That's a big enough problem in the case as it is now, which is not supporting the intruder theory.

No, taking the body away and dumping it is clearly not easy, and if the Ramsey's were involved in a cover up is FAR too much of a risk. Physical evidence if the body is left in the house is FAR easier explained away since it's YOUR house and your hairs, fibers and DNA are all over it. Consider the mystery hair found on the blanket (which I believe was traced back to JAR)... if it was your hair, it can be explained away as having been deposited there at some other time in some innocuous way since it's a blanket from a house you live in, as it was explained away in JAR's case (he'd slept on that blanket in the past).

 

[close_enough]

In a story today from Denver
http://www.9news.com

It is noted that other physical evidence which was preserved may link Karr with the crime.
- the palm print on the cellar door
- the shoe print
- hair and fibre samples

Suppose the dna matches Karr, and the palm print matches Karr. Wouldn't that be convincing proof he was there? We have to wait and see the results of the tests.

i've read that the palm print was melinda's...John's other daughter...
...if LE can put Karr in Boulder, xmas 96 along w/a DNA match, it's all over....
.

 

[Tristan]

Welcome to Websleuths! Your post is excellent, and I agree with all of your
points as to why the body was not removed from the home.
An intruder would likely have taken the child with him....after all,
he'd already risked so much in breaking into the house, writing the note
and taking the child from her bed, etc. WHY wouldn't he just take her
with him and have her in a "safe" place where he can spend a much longer
time with her?

Many perps have taken children from their home (Polly Klaas, Jessica Lundsford, etc), but ALL of them took the child outside.
NONE molested the child in their own homes.

A Ramsey committed this crime. Plain and simple.
I smell a cover-up.

 

[exoromeo]

excellent post doc.

And I agree Tristan. An intruder/kidnapper/whatever is not gonna take time to do what he's gonna do in the house. Grab the kid and get the hell outta dodge ASAP..then do whatever later is likely what would happen (seems to in about every other case, just not this one for some reason).

 

[JBean]

Bumping for RDI-IDI debate

 

[BBB167893]

Doc, I was fair-haired boy till you showed up! Welcome!