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These pictures lack the definition to allow us to say much with any degree of authority. (We can speculate, though.
)I don't know, it might even be a photo artifact of some sort.
No, Ann obtained all of that information from the AR, she just didn't use the jargon.
Hey Carioca,
but after seeing the picture of the lower legs I was actually quite surprised to see the degree of lividity that was present. Prior to this we had only the language of the autopsy report which was remarkably vague and seemed to be silent about ANY lividity in the legs and feet.
No, not that I'm aware of.
These pictures lack the definition to allow us to say much with any degree of authority. (We can speculate, though.
For example, we have a PERFECT view of the posterolateral area of the right fourth (little) finger where the autopsy report says there, "is a small amount of dried blood," but I don't see it.
I don't know, it might even be a photo artifact of some sort.
It's disheartening when you can't even see what according to the autopsy should be there as I mentioned above.
The rope does exit through the fingers of the right hand, but between the index and second finger, not the second and third where we see the red blotch. From the AR:
There is an 84 inch segment of rope extending from a slip knot on the left wrist. This 84 inch segment pulls through the slip knot. This segment extends from the left wrist into the right hand and exits between the right index and middle fingers.
No, Ann obtained all of that information from the AR, she just didn't use the jargon.
Hey Carioca,
Please forgive me for disagreeing
From the AR, At 2000 hours rigor mortis was marked in the upper and lower extremities, neck, and jaw. Livor mortis was posterior, red and fixed.There is also red livor mortis on the upper chest. There is green discoloration of each lower quadrant of the abdomen.
Curiously, Lucas seemed to confirm that there was no lividity there:
From the Sept.2, 2011 press conference.http://www.sdsheriff.net/coronado/
Reporter: Dr. Lucas, Im sure its in your initial report, but somewhere theres some language about lividity in the body, and this has come up in a lot of internet sites that there was liviidity in her back but was there lividity in her feet and can it transfer if shes hanging for three hours and she gets lividity in her feet, can it transfer to her back after shes laying in the courtyard for 15 hours and isnt it better for a medical examiner to examine the body for lividity in the feet, like right away, like go and see if theres lividity within 90 minutes rather than waiting 15 hours to go and examine the body?
Dr. Lucas: The lividity pattern is an easy explanation, and youre absolutely right, lividity is simply the blood, the dark red discoloration on the body when the blood settles with gravity after death and it follows gravity if you turn the body, or move the body, for the first 10 or 12 hours it will just follow gravity, so thats precisely why she was found certainly less than 12 hours after she died, it was actually, I think, only a few hours or so, more or less, and laid down on the grass and once that happened, the minute she got on the grass, the blood started to re-settle and remained in her back. As to the length of time between the death or the discovery I should say and our arrival, we in this particular case, its critical that evidence around the body be processed by the Sheriffs department or any other law enforcement agency before we get there because they cant have us walking through the crime scene and then removing the body is actually also a fairly disruptive process and we want to make sure evidence is collected around the body first and the Sheriffs department is very good about expediting that as fast as possible, given the case.
Reporter: In the initial photographs that were taken, early on after the 911 call, were there photographs taken showing that there may be red splotches or lividity found in her feet or did anyone from your office walk up to the body and notice lividity in her feet early on?
Dr. Lucas: No, our office did not have a representative there until several hours in, I dont know the exact time, so we werent there to examine it until the time at which the body was removed.
Reporter: Did you see any photographs ever showing lividity in the feet?
Dr. Lucas: The photographs that I can recall of the top of my head, I never saw anything that would be inconsistent with the scenario as we understand it, so I didnt see anything out of sorts, I didnt see lividity against gravity and especially if shes only been dead for a few hours lividity is going to transfer real quick.
Reporter: So your opinion is that if someone had examined the body right when she was cut down and if she had been there for say three hours there would have been some noticeable lividity in her feet and once she lay there for a half a day then the lividity from her feet went away.
Dr Lucas: Yes, the moment she was cut down if there was a photograph when that occurred its logical to conclude that she would have had lividity in her feet, probably her hands as well, but she was so fresh when she was brought down that that would have re-settled pretty quickly.
Reporter: And that by the time you got there, you never noticed any lividity in her feet.
Dr. Lucas: I wouldnt have expected it to be there by the time we got there.
Thinking that there was no evidence of lividity in her lower legs and feet, it prompted me to ask Cyril Wecht on the Nov 20/11 Websleuths radio show to comment.
Cynic: From the lower legs, how in the world is that blood going to get just by gravity, which of course is always pulling it down toward the ground, how is it going to end up away from those legs
Dr. Wecht: I agree, there would have been some residual settling of blood in the distal calves and feet, I agree with you.
http://www.blogtalkradio.com/websleu...dr-cyril-wecht
As Dr. Wecht correctly stated, if Rebecca was hanging for several hours, her legs would been loaded with blood from the upper body and while there would have been some resettling given the position in which she was found, the picture that we see with quite apparent lividity in the calves and feet makes sense.
The estimates with respect to the length time it takes for lividity to become fixed does vary, although, the most frequently cited range is 8-12 hours.
That range is also commonly dubbed as typical.
Here are a couple of examples:
"8-12 hours (24-36 hours in cooler temps)"
http://www.hpregional.org/departments/science/staffhomepages/tcostello/timeofdeath.pdf
"Livor mortis develops gradually, usually reaching its maximum coloration at 812 h. At about this time, it is said to become fixed.
http://el.trc.gov.om:4000/htmlroot/MEDICAL/tcolon/forensic_med/Forensic%20Pathology/E-Books/Time%20of%20Death.pdf
Onset and fixation times are stated in very general time frames although the fact of the matter is that there is there can be considerable variation especially with respect to fixation.
Livor Mortis (Hypostasis)
Livor mortis is the result of the cessation of cardiac activity and the settling of blood in the capillaries and venules, thus distending them, in the dependent parts of the body. The dependent engorged blood vessels impart a purple-blue color to the overlying skin with the exception of those parts of the body serving as pressure points. As an example, if someone dies in a supine position (resting on their back) livor mortis will develop on their back with the exception of the shoulder blades, buttocks, calves and heels. It is these parts of the body, which are supporting its weight and thus are referred to as pressure points.
The color of livor is ultimately determined by the degree of oxyhemoglobin present at the time of death. As stated the typical color of livor is purplish-blue. However, if the body has been refrigerated, the peripheral margins of the livor can appear red to pink.
[SNIP]
Livor mortis usually appears within 30 min to 2 hours after death. There is however some variability in the literature as to the onset of livor. Adelsons used a time frame of 30 min to 4 hours for the onset, Spitz and Fisher 2 to 4 hours, Gradwohl 20 to 30 min, DiMaio 30 min to 2 hours and Knight 30 min to 2 hours.
[SNIP]
It is typically stated that if the body remains in the same position as at the time of death for 6 to 12 hours livor mortis will become fixed.
For example, should a person die lyingon their back and remain in that position for 6 to 12 hours, livor mortis will become fixed on the posterior surface of their body with the exception of pressure points and will remain so even if their body is turned over onto their stomach. This is a helpful feature that can give you insight as to whether the body position was changed after death.
Should you apply pressure with your finger onto the area of livor mortis it will not blanch. This is what is meant when the pathologist uses the phrase fixed violaceous post mortem lividity extends over the anterior or posterior surface of the body with the exception of pressure points.
Should the body be moved before fixation has taken place, the livor will shift to the new dependent position. It should be understood that the time frames given for onset of livor and development of fixation are not rigid. Francis Camps reported a case in which livor was fixed within one hour of death. John Burton observed shifting of livor in bodies moved 24 hours after death. Perhaps the best study on the issue of shifting and fixation of livor mortis was that done by Suzutani et al. In their study involving 430 bodies livor was fixed in 30% of those deaths that were 6 to 12 hours old. In over 50% livor was fixed in those who had been dead for 12 to 24 hours and no fading occurred in 70% in those who had been dead for more than 1 to 3 days. However, there was a substantial number of cases in which livor was not fixed after 3 days, thus in some cases there can be redistribution of livor up until decomposition commences with staining of the tissues due to hemolysis, which typically begins around 36 to 48 hours at a temperature of 70°F.
This is often associated with a pronounced green discoloration to the surface of the skin in the right lower abdominal region.
Due to the significant individual variation in the onset of livor mortis and the variability as to when it becomes fixed it cannot be used as a definitive reliable factor in determining time of death. This is not to suggest that livor mortis does not provide any useful information. In a general sense livor can provide some insight into the postmortem interval through its degree of development and whether a body has been moved after death. Livor found on the back of a body lying prone suggest that body has been moved several hours after death.
http://forensicmd.files.wordpress.com/2009/12/early-postmortem-changes1.pdf
See also:
Fixation of lividity is a relative, rather than an absolute, phenomenon, but nevertheless, well developed lividity fades very slowly and only incompletely. Fading of the primary pattern of lividity and development of a secondary pattern of lividity will be quicker and more complete if the body is moved within, say, the first six hours after death, than at a later period.
Even after 24 hours, moving the body will result in a secondary pattern of lividity developing. Duality of the distribution of lividity is important because it shows that the body had been moved after death. However, the timing of this movement of the body is inexact. Polson claims "it shows that the body had been moved ... within 8 to 12 hours".
Camps states more convincingly that "for the hypostasis of have value in this way, the body must have first remained in one position for a length of time, perhaps about 10 hours, sufficient for the lividity to have become well developed and it must then be examined early enough after being moved before much of the hypostasis has become redistributed".
http://www.dundee.ac.uk/forensicmedicine/notes/timedeath.pdf
Thanks iQuestion for the link to the article. I believe the following excerpts are worth noting:<snipped for focus>
I was extremely surprised at the lapse in acquiring "cell phone information." And, the reason being, the case that won Tsuida, homicide detective of the year..... there were more than 70 SEARCH WARRANTS issued for cell/phone records
But, then again..."outside" (more thorough, funded?) agencies were brought in for assistance.
San Diego Homicide Detective Angela Tsuida Named California Homicide Investigators Associations 2010 CHIA Investigator of the Year Written by Kay Ochi
http://www.scribd.com/doc/37126792/Borderline-July-2010
(just wanted to make sure I got my source in place:blushing
BBM Totally agree with you, bourne. Intentionally destroyed bodily evidence by delaying arrival of ME for 13+ hours. Brilliant move on the part of those responsible; points to premeditation IMO.
