The case for murder

[cynic]

Do four separate injuries to her head suggest she was hit by something or hit something four separate times?

Both are possible, although whatever produced the injuries was not sharp enough to produce lacerations - it was blunt force trauma.

 

[arielilane]

This is suspect to me. Questionable... I just don't get it. jmo

From the AR:
Toe prints, apparently from the right foot, were close to the balcony railing and in line with an area of dirt clearing on the top of the balcony railing and in line with an area of dirt clearing on the top of the balcony railing and with the point at which the rope hung over the balcony.

 

[sorrell skye]

Cynic- thank you so much for the diagram! You did a fantastic job!

I agree that the illustration is only an approximation of the location of the hemorrhages, and without exact measurements it's impossible to know precisely where each of these injuries occurred.

Photo of the cranial bones:

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/imagepages/9057.htm

Based on the AR description of the location of the injury on the "right superior parietal scalp", I would place it more on top of the head (since it was described as superior), and less laterally, but that's just my opinion (I hope you don't mind my feedback - I have a degree in kinesiology).

Again - thank you for going to the trouble of creating the diagram! A visual is very helpful!

 

[scorekeeper]

I'll bet the police and the ME tried to visualize it too, and came up empty handed. That's why they have offered no reconstruction of their theory of how she fell.

There were no abrasions or bruises on her torso.

cynic,

nice to meet you and sunnieRN totally respects you; so I do too!!

Thank you for answering my questions, I keep trying to apply logic to an illogical explanation given by LE.

It's kinda' like being :crazy: doing the same thing over and over the same way but expecting different results...

Thanks again and I really appreciate and enjoy all your posts!

score

Could someone had thrown her over the balcony and received the same results?

 

[cynic]

Facial congestion, broken hyoid bone on left side of the neck and broken cartilage in the left superior horn of the thyroid. There are petechiae present also. All of these signs are indicitive of strangulation, not hanging.

Manual strangulation could have produced the injuries that you described.
In a typical, “kick the chair out from under your feet,” hanging you would not see those injuries; however, in a long drop hanging you would see those injuries.
My problem with the long drop hanging scenario as is given to us by LE and the ME, is that there should have been serious spinal injuries as well.

 

[sorrell skye]

A thought just occurred to me - if the noose knot was on the right side of the back of RZ's neck (which it was described as in the AR), it would seem that the pressure from the knot on the back of her neck would have tilted the right side of her head & face skyward, and would have pushed her face & head AWAY from any obstacles, not toward them.

Yet, she sustained 4 subgaleal hemorrhages to the right side of her head.

 

[cynic]

Based on the AR description of the location of the injury on the "right superior parietal scalp", I would place it more on top of the head (since it was described as superior), and less laterally, but that's just my opinion (I hope you don't mind my feedback - I have a degree in kinesiology).

Again - thank you for going to the trouble of creating the diagram! A visual is very helpful!

Thank you for the feedback, I appreciate it.
I was actually trying to give the impression of it being on top of the head by having half the "circle" in mid-air, LOL, but i guess I should have presented a view looking down at the top of the head.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

If LE was so concerned with protecting the family and ostensibly RZ, why did they leave her naked body in full view of media helicopters & neighbors on roof tops for 12 hours?

Was RZ's body left in the courtyard for the public to see? Apparently, by LE's actions, they believed so, otherwise they would have found a way to shield her body from view.

I find it outrageous that a woman's deceased body is allowed to be viewed by the public via the media, but a message on a door that is characterized as something other than a suicide note is withheld from the media & the public.

RZ's immediate family members have discussed the message on the door since Sept. 2, and have also disputed the wording of it, and have disputed that it was Rebecca who wrote it.

Search warrants were obtained for the mansion. Until then the homicide team which had been assigned to the case had to wait until the search warrant was in place and that can take several hours if they can find a Judge that isn't busy.

The body is the last thing to be removed from the scene and even though it may seem disrespectful to the victim... LE does not disturb any of the evidence that may be on the body until the ME can come out and go over the body. Covering the body can result in evidence lost. And the San Diego ME office does 2,700 autopsies a year which means more than likely at the time when they were notified they were busy doing other autopsies.

I really don't think LE expected the media to swoop in and take the video of Rebecca and air it all over the world. I was shocked myself even though I know the media has sunk to new lows and care more about ratings than anything.

The message was a personal message left by Rebecca. It was not intended to be broadcast around the world. Yes, the family did disclose it but far better for the family to make the decision to do so than LE.

In fact for a suicide death this case has been more revealing than any I have seen of its type. Usually LE doesn't release nearly this amount of information. They just usually say the death was a suicide and then state if it was a hanging, overdose, gunshot wound or whatever and that is about it.

IMO

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Parietal Ridge: This is the point where the top of the head curves downward to become the sides of the head. The term parietal ridge refers to the bony ridge along the upper sides of the head. The Parietal Ridge begins approximately three finger-widths above the top of the ear.


http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...ead.htm+superior+parietal+skull+area?&ct=clnk

http://www.hairfinder.com/info/headanatomy.gif

 

[sorrell skye]

Manual strangulation could have produced the injuries that you described.
In a typical, “kick the chair out from under your feet,” hanging you would not see those injuries; however, in a long drop hanging you would see those injuries.
My problem with the long drop hanging scenario as is given to us by LE and the ME, is that there should have been serious spinal injuries as well.

bbm

This is the same problem I have with the 9'2" drop - there should have been at the very least displacement of cervical vertebrae (resulting in injury to the spinal cord) or cervical spine fractures.

And then there's this from the Dr. Drew show (aired Sept. 8, 2011):

Another thing, by the way, the rope expert mentioned to me before he went out during the break was that the rope, when it went over the railing, there would have been 600 pounds of pressure when she hung there, and there should have been some indentation or something of the rail that the rope was over, as well as there should have been some effect on the rope. Apparently, he says, the ropes have certain signs of that kind of pressure being exerted.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1109/08/ddhln.01.html

9'2" fall, with 600 pounds of pressure at the end of that fall.

But the AR states there were no vertebral fractures and no spinal cord injuries.

 

[sdcali]

Ditto this- I honestly am having a hard time visualizing this. What does angular mean? It can't mean horizontal because of the 11 inches. Does it mean vertical but on her side? Doesn't the last toe print disprove that since, if I recall correctly, it isn't diagonal but straight back?

Imagine this scenario, she is hoisted manually by a third person (or two), from the bedroom from bent position, faced over the balcony. As she is lifted, her body limp, because she is already dead or unconcious, shifts to one side. Thus the "angular" position. IMO

 

[Dr. Know?]

http://www.physics.usyd.edu.au/pdfs/foundation/STW10/02_ForensicPhysics.pdf

(at the link look at the pictures, it is in depth but informative.)

 

[Dr. Know?]

I think the height of the tree/shrub has been stated and the cactus, I think. Has the depth of them been stated anywhere? 2', 3'D? TIA

 

[scorekeeper]

http://www.physics.usyd.edu.au/pdfs/foundation/STW10/02_ForensicPhysics.pdf

(at the link look at the pictures, it is in depth but informative.)

I thought trying to interprete Jose's flip charts about hair, leaves, etc was mind boggling.....

Now I have to understand that X and Y stuff.....

:floorlaugh::floorlaugh::floorlaugh:

Can someone from Pixar make us a film?????

 

[sorrell skye]

Parietal Ridge: This is the point where the top of the head curves downward to become the sides of the head. The term parietal ridge refers to the bony ridge along the upper sides of the head. The Parietal Ridge begins approximately three finger-widths above the top of the ear.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...ead.htm+superior+parietal+skull+area?&ct=clnk

http://www.hairfinder.com/info/headanatomy.gif

The parietal subgaleal hemorrhage was not on the "parietal ridge" (I've never actually heard of a "parietal ridge" in medical terminology - I think it's hair stylist terminology). The parietal subgaleal hemorrhage was described in the AR as being located on the right superior parietal scalp, which means the right side of the top (superior) surface of the head.

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&...TItOWM1Mi00NGE4LWEyZDgtMjc3OWUxZTYzYmY5&hl=en

Anything on the side of the head (and still on the parietal surface) would be considered the lateral parietal region. If on the suture between the parietal bone & the temporal bone, it would be referred to as the temporo-parietal region.

Since the AR described this particular injury as being on the right superior parietal scalp, I'm seeing it as being on the right side of the top of the head, based on my understanding of kinesiology & human anatomy.

 

[Bonepile]

I really wonder with 11 investigators going over this case if they ever once questioned it as a murder, ever once thought of someone else as the perp, ever once questioned many of the things we have questioned (and continue to question) here, and will ever re-open a case which seems finalized by them as suicide?

 

[IWannaKnow]

Bringing an old post of mine over:
https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&...TItOWM1Mi00NGE4LWEyZDgtMjc3OWUxZTYzYmY5&hl=en

Page 9:
Bold and color by me~

HEAD AND NECK:
Posteriorly, there is a parallel, thin, red line situated 1/8 inch below the dried ligature furrow for a distance of 2-1/2 inches and separated from it by an area of pallor.

and, same page, same section:

On the lateral and anterolateral right neck, roughly parallel with the ligature furrow above the thyroid cartilage and the 2-3/4 inch red extension on the right neck, and perpendicular to the pale compression furrow on the posterolateral right neck, there is a pair of thin linear marks. They converge from being separated by a distance of 1 inch posteriorly to a distance of 1/2 inch anteriorly, just to the right of the midline.

Maybe cynic or Sunnie or sorrell skye will see something different in those statements, but for me that says there were OTHER marks on her neck, other than the ligature furrow - SEPARATED BY AN AREA OF PALLOR. Hmmmmmm. Where would those come from? The t-shirt was over the rope, so that doesn't work. If the rope simply slipped, there should be abrasions, but those are not mentioned.

 

[SunnieRN]

BBM

I dont think that is a 100% absolute, imo.

Violent Asphyxia Deaths

Definition:It is Asphyxial death caused by suspension of the body by a ligature around the neck, the constricting force being the weight of the body.Classification (types) of hanging:A) It may be either complete or partial:Complete: the feet are not touching the ground. Partial: the feet are touching the ground.B) It may be either typical or atypical:Typical: the ligature is above the thyroid cartilage and runs symmetrically upwards onboth sides of the neck to the occipital region. Atypical: any other position of the ligature.
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Page 2
Mechanism of death:1. Cerebral anoxia: is due to bilateral occlusion of the carotid arteries.It is the most common cause.2- Cerebral congestion: is due to occlusion of the neck veins.3- Asphyxia: is due to direct compression of the air passages or lifting of the larynxto be closed by the root of the tongue.Reflex vagal inhibition: is due to stimulation of baroreceptors situated in the carotid sinuses and the carotid body When death occurs as a result of vagal inhibition (reflex cardiac arrest),Asphyxial signs will be absent. If death results from a cause other than vagalinhibition, Asphyxial features (already described) will be present. However, in any case, the following signs are also seen:Externally:The neck is stretched. The face is pale (veins and arteries are occluded) or bluish and congested (only the veins are occluded). The rest of the body is cyanosed. Ligature mark:Shape:It is a depression at the site of the ligature. In the bed of the depression abrasions,contusions and fibers from the ligature may be found. Situation:Above the level of the thyroid cartilage.Asymmetrical: (being deepest opposite the point of suspension).Oblique: sloping upwards and incomplete (if fixed noose).Transverse and complete (if running noose).
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Page 3
The pattern of the ligature:May be imprinted on the neck as a pressure abrasion.Internally:Fracture of the hyoid bone (outward fracture).Petechial hemorrhage and ecchymosis of the subcutaneous tissue under the ligature. Absence of other cause of death.Is it suicidal, homicidal, or accidental hanging? Suicidal: (most common):Circumstantial evidence (history of failure).Absence of signs of struggle. Presence of signs of previous suicidal attempts. Homicidal: (very rare):Circumstantial evidence (history of threat). Presence of signs of struggle. Evidence of poisoning by drink or drugs. Accidental: (rare):Children playing with ropes. falling and hanged by ropes.
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Page 4
Ligature strangulation: A violent Asphyxial death caused by constricting the neck by a ligature.Mechanism of death:Asphyxia: from compression of air passages. Cerebral congestion or apoplexy: Reflex vagal inhibitiono Cerebral anoxia:Combination of any of the above:Autopsy appearances:On postmortem examination Asphyxial features (previously described) will only be evident in cases where death was due to any cause other than reflex vagalinhibition. Asphyxial features are usually absent when death results from reflex vagalinhibition. However, in any case the following signs are also seen:Externally:The face is either pale or bluish and congested. The rest of the body is cyanosed.The tongue may be protruded, swollen and bitten.Ligature mark:Shape: as in hanging.Situation:At the level of thyroid cartilage or below.Symmetrical (the force is equal all around the neck).Transverse and complete (this is the usual).May be oblique (if the victim has been dragged by the ligature).

Internally:Neck muscles may be injured. Fracture of thyroid cartilage may occur. Fracture of hyoid bone.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...hyoid+bone+break+in+a+suicide+hanging&ct=clnk

Manual strangulation could have produced the injuries that you described.
In a typical, “kick the chair out from under your feet,” hanging you would not see those injuries; however, in a long drop hanging you would see those injuries.
My problem with the long drop hanging scenario as is given to us by LE and the ME, is that there should have been serious spinal injuries as well.

bbm

This is the same problem I have with the 9'2" drop - there should have been at the very least displacement of cervical vertebrae (resulting in injury to the spinal cord) or cervical spine fractures.

And then there's this from the Dr. Drew show (aired Sept. 8, 2011):

Another thing, by the way, the rope expert mentioned to me before he went out during the break was that the rope, when it went over the railing, there would have been 600 pounds of pressure when she hung there, and there should have been some indentation or something of the rail that the rope was over, as well as there should have been some effect on the rope. Apparently, he says, the ropes have certain signs of that kind of pressure being exerted.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1109/08/ddhln.01.html

9'2" fall, with 600 pounds of pressure at the end of that fall.

But the AR states there were no vertebral fractures and no spinal cord injuries.

Ocean, the snips below your post are only SOME of the reasons I disagree that the injuries were caused ONLY by hanging. I have MANY unanswered questions, just the first of which is why there was not more damage to her spinal cord. If it doesn't fit, you must acquit. I acquit death by suicide.

 

[SunnieRN]

Bringing an old post of mine over:
https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&...TItOWM1Mi00NGE4LWEyZDgtMjc3OWUxZTYzYmY5&hl=en

Page 9:
Bold and color by me~


and, same page, same section:



Maybe cynic or Sunnie or sorrell skye will see something different in those statements, but for me that says there were OTHER marks on her neck, other than the ligature furrow - SEPARATED BY AN AREA OF PALLOR. Hmmmmmm. Where would those come from? The t-shirt was over the rope, so that doesn't work. If the rope simply slipped, there should be abrasions, but those are not mentioned.

Those questions are not explained on the Autopsy report. What is states to me is two types of strangulation, but that is imho only.

 

[sorrell skye]

Bringing an old post of mine over:
https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&...TItOWM1Mi00NGE4LWEyZDgtMjc3OWUxZTYzYmY5&hl=en

Page 9:
Bold and color by me~


and, same page, same section:



Maybe cynic or Sunnie or sorrell skye will see something different in those statements, but for me that says there were OTHER marks on her neck, other than the ligature furrow - SEPARATED BY AN AREA OF PALLOR. Hmmmmmm. Where would those come from? The t-shirt was over the rope, so that doesn't work. If the rope simply slipped, there should be abrasions, but those are not mentioned.

Those same marks caught my eye a few days ago when I started studying the AR more closely, and I've been trying to make sense of them.

They are described as "thin, red lines" or "thin, linear marks", which sounds as if they were not deep (like the furrow from the rope).

On the back of the neck, 1/8 inch below & parallel to the ligature furrow, there is a thin, red line measuring 2 1/2 inches in length.

On the right-front neck & the right-lateral neck, there are two thin linear marks, parallel with the ligature furrow. From the wording in the AR, I can't tell if these two marks are above or below the ligature furrow, or how long each one of them are.

I've been reading about ligature marks this morning, and I learned that if a person is strangled but the ligature is removed immediately after death, the ligature won't necessarily leave a furrow. According to what I've read, the furrow develops with prolonged postmortem contact. I didn't save the link, but if anyone wants it, I'll try to find it. It makes sense that the rope left a pronounced furrow, since she was hanging for several hours.

IMO, these three thin, red lines seem out of place. I'm wondering if she may have been strangled with a thin ligature prior to hanging (not necessarily strangled to death, but perhaps strangled to unconsciousness).

That's my current two cents regarding the thin red lines. Of course, I'm no forensic expert (nor am I a chemist lol).