The Case of JonBenet Ramsey-CBS Sept. 18 # 2

[MaryMac250]

And you think Burke wasn't mentally ill?

The thing is, what would PR have to gain from killing her daughter? Was she THAT desperate for the limelight?

If it was an accident, why not stage it differently? Why so gruesome?

Burke, yes. But I think the question about Patsy is a good one. IMO, she shows behaviors indicative of sociopathy/psychopathy through out the interviews...except maybe one. I don't see her crying....or very little...as she talks about Jonbenet. I know that doesn't sound like much. But, one indicator of S/P is the ability to rationalize and/or cut off from one's feelings. For the sake of argument, I can see her doing this....talking abt sad events, not crying, by rationalizing to herself, "Well I am not really responsible for Jonbenet's death.,,,so, as she said so many times, "I did not kill my daughter." Just thinkin.....Sociopathy/Psychopathy are personality disorders....different DSM axis than depression, anxiety, etc.

 

[MaryMac250]

As I recall there was a chair nearby - not that I think Burke put the body there, but I think he could get into that room anytime he wanted to.

Yes, I can see that possibility, or using a stick (or something) to move the block. I'm thinking though, the GJ, agreeing with the notion Burke did not put the body there, figured John or Patsy did.

 

[HarmonyE.]

Just wanted to gather your thoughts.

If most think BR as a 9yr old kid showed inappropriate responses for a newly bereaved brother in his interviews, possibly betraying signs of sociopathy/psychopathy, a child who most likely had harboured natural resentment and jealousy towards his sister for 6 years (zero defence of him intended), I'm interested to hear what people think about Patsy, being able to detach from the grief of the ending of the life of her 6 year old daughter, to plot and write a long rambling ransom note containing elements of dark humour, allowing her mind to be creative and imaginative, and then being able to spend a day in the company of friends betraying no signs of grief for 7 whole hours, from 6am to 1pm. I don't think I could delay my grief upon losing one of my children if I wanted to.

The diamonds and mink for CNN does nothing to erase this picture either.

This is an excellent question and one of thought about for years.

On Oprah sometime after Patsy died, JR said she always carried around a blue dress so she would be prepared for an impromptu TV interview when the "real killer" was found. Apparently she thought blue looked best on camera. I mean, who thinks like that?

I think Patsy was a sick character who raised a sick boy.

 

[ThinkHard]

I know this is a random picture and could mean nothing. But I couldn't help but notice the positioning of everyone in the photo.

JB is postioned btw her parent. Both girls are standing in front of their mothers. FW3 is close to his father....but Burke is pretty much as far away from his family as he can be....

 

[johnjay]

Just wanted to gather your thoughts.

If most think BR as a 9yr old kid showed inappropriate responses for a newly bereaved brother in his interviews, possibly betraying signs of sociopathy/psychopathy, a child who most likely had harboured natural resentment and jealousy towards his sister for 6 years (zero defence of him intended), I'm interested to hear what people think about Patsy, being able to detach from the grief of the ending of the life of her 6 year old daughter, to plot and write a long rambling ransom note containing elements of dark humour, allowing her mind to be creative and imaginative, and then being able to spend a day in the company of friends betraying no signs of grief for 7 whole hours, from 6am to 1pm. I don't think I could delay my grief upon losing one of my children if I wanted to.

The diamonds and mink for CNN does nothing to erase this picture either.

I think working on the ransom note blunted the incredible pain she was in and that encouraged the note to get too long. It was a momentary escape from the horrible reality.

 

[MaryMac250]

I know this is a random picture and could mean nothing. But I couldn't help but notice the positioning of everyone in the photo.

JB is postioned btw her parent. Both girls are standing in front of their mothers. FW3 is close to his father....but Burke is pretty much as far away from his family as he can be....

Yes! Excellent pickup.

 

[Thisisbull]

Is there a place I can look to better understand how everyone was related to each other or connected....I would like to be more familiar with that, thanks!

When I was researching this case months ago I came across acandyrose.com and found at the top it says "wiki-who's who" and that helped me. I'm sorry I'm still trying to get familiar with everything on webslueths so I don't know how to post a link directly yet. Heck...I'm still trying to navigate thru all the different links and threads on this site (why I haven't posted much since becoming a member, always just used guest)

 

[MaryMac250]

When I was researching this case months ago I came across acandyrose.com and found at the top it says "wiki-who's who" and that helped me. I'm sorry I'm still trying to get familiar with everything on webslueths so I don't know how to post a link directly yet. Heck...I'm still trying to navigate thru all the different links and threads on this site (why I haven't posted much since becoming a member, always just used guest)

Also, Steve Thomas' book Jonbenet: Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation has, in the back of the book a Dramatis Personae section that lists the cast (so to speak)

 

[PositiveLight]

Just wanted to gather your thoughts.

If most think BR as a 9yr old kid showed inappropriate responses for a newly bereaved brother in his interviews, possibly betraying signs of sociopathy/psychopathy, a child who most likely had harboured natural resentment and jealousy towards his sister for 6 years (zero defence of him intended), I'm interested to hear what people think about Patsy, being able to detach from the grief of the ending of the life of her 6 year old daughter, to plot and write a long rambling ransom note containing elements of dark humour, allowing her mind to be creative and imaginative, and then being able to spend a day in the company of friends betraying no signs of grief for 7 whole hours, from 6am to 1pm. I don't think I could delay my grief upon losing one of my children if I wanted to.

The diamonds and mink for CNN does nothing to erase this picture either.

Imho. She was also a sociopath. So is Burke.
Check out this link. Pretty interesting the signs and symptoms.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/201305/how-spot-sociopath

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

 

[molly1255]

This is an excellent question and one of thought about for years.

On Oprah sometime after Patsy died, JR said she always carried around a blue dress so she would be prepared for an impromptu TV interview when the "real killer" was found. Apparently she thought blue looked best on camera. I mean, who thinks like that?

I think Patsy was a sick character who raised a sick boy.

I agree. My thoughts are that there might be some some Cluster B issues with both P and B.

I'm not a professional in this area, but I had some dealings with someone who was Cluster B (I didn't know it at the time). In addition to fooling me, I watched him manipulate and fooled a psychologist and a minister.

I do believe that many in LE have a pretty good sense of what they are dealing with when they encounter a Cluster B. But it is a mistake to believe these folks always have a criminal record because not all of them do. Some of them are very careful to cover their tracks and some just haven't been caught yet.

Edited to add: These people tend to cause incredible damage.

 

[PositiveLight]

I think it's hard for us to imagine not having the normal emotions that most people have. The thing is, sociopaths have never felt those emotions so they don't know that their behavior is out of the norm. They can't feel what we feel so therefore they have no emotions (normal) to turn off and on. Patsy lived her life like she was in a movie. She did a fabulous job acting her way through life. She deserved an Oscar. When she needed to she would follow others cues and cry (fake) and "you raised Lazarus from the dead! Raise my baby from the dead too". Where she made her fatal flaw is overdoing the emotions. Burke doesn't give a flying flip whether his emotions are proper or not. Remember Burke said when his daddy told him JonBenet was in heaven he "sobbed and then cried" because his daddy was and probably was told to cry imho. Patsy was all about social status and being the center of attention. Which IMO is why she called her friends over. She wanted an audience. JMOO

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

 

[Frigga]

^^^ Just when I start to feel sorry for her I am brought back down to reality. I'm afraid you're probably right.

 

[molly1255]

I think it's hard for us to imagine not having the normal emotions that most people have. The thing is, sociopaths have never felt those emotions so they don't know that their behavior is out of the norm. They can't feel what we feel so therefore they have no emotions (normal) to turn off and on. Patsy lived her life like she was in a movie. She did a fabulous job acting her way through life. She deserved an Oscar. When she needed to she would follow others cues and cry (fake) and "you raised Lazarus from the dead! Raise my baby from the dead too". Where she made her fatal flaw is overdoing the emotions. Burke doesn't give a flying flip whether his emotions are proper or not. Remember Burke said when his daddy told him JonBenet was in heaven he "sobbed and then cried" because his daddy was and probably was told to cry imho. Patsy was all about social status and being the center of attention. Which IMO is why she called her friends over. She wanted an audience. JMOO

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

It is indeed very hard to imagine not having normal human emotions, particularly empathy, and I agree, sociopaths never experience these emotions. It can be very difficult to spot one of these "people" until after the damage is done and their mask comes off.

From what I experienced and have read since my own experience, they are prolific liars, even with the truth would serve them better, and they exhibit a high degree of narcissism and self-entitlement.

 

[PositiveLight]

Wow
Read this too! Excellent read! Confessions of a Sociopath. Eye opening to say the least.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/201305/confessions-sociopath

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

 

[ThinkHard]

As I was reading your thoughts here, it made me think about the WC door. The top of the door secured by that rotating block of wood. If we assume Burke placed the body there, would he have been able to reach that? I don't think so. Someone taller, most likely an adult could easily do that.

He could if he stood on a suitcase

 

[RL2]

And you think Burke wasn't mentally ill?

The thing is, what would PR have to gain from killing her daughter? Was she THAT desperate for the limelight?

If it was an accident, why not stage it differently? Why so gruesome?

for drama... She'll be remembered forever, won't she?

Any publicity is good publicity.. Infamous

 

[WatcherInWater]

My theroy. Burke smeared her chocolates earlier with poo jealous she got them or she wouldn't let him have one, Patsy claimed he would have had a chocolate snack not fruit when asked about the snack he would have. He sneaks up to play with toy. JonBenet wets the bed and heads to his room with her pillow, where she often sleeps after wetting, but he is not there. She heads downstairs with the pillow we see on the counter and in the reinactment in the CBS special. He makes her pineapple and he has tea. When he is done, with flashlight in tow, they head downstairs to look at presents which he rips open. They leave wine celler and he grabs her by the neck and hits her for some reason, then pokes her with the tracks in the hall. He makes and uses garotte and pokes her with the paintbrush missing end. A child more likely to get her hair caught in the knots not an adult. At some point P and J comes upon this scene and JB is dead. P stages rest of cord around JB hands, pulls on the garotte to cover up and wipes her off and places tape on mouth, while J deals with B taking him and flashlight back upstairs where it is wiped. J handles B better then P i would venture to guess and it might take awhile to deal with B after these events. At some point P is upstairs getting blanket and in the bedroom where cord fragments get on JB's bed from her staging. They don't realize the significance of the pineapple, They flush the little bit of cord, and cut up the tape and flush it too, and P writes RN, flushing some of her practice attempts, then they wait until the right time to call.

 

[ThinkHard]

Burke, yes. But I think the question about Patsy is a good one. IMO, she shows behaviors indicative of sociopathy/psychopathy through out the interviews...except maybe one. I don't see her crying....or very little...as she talks about Jonbenet. I know that doesn't sound like much. But, one indicator of S/P is the ability to rationalize and/or cut off from one's feelings. For the sake of argument, I can see her doing this....talking abt sad events, not crying, by rationalizing to herself, "Well I am not really responsible for Jonbenet's death.,,,so, as she said so many times, "I did not kill my daughter." Just thinkin.....Sociopathy/Psychopathy are personality disorders....different DSM axis than depression, anxiety, etc.

She strikes me as more of the bipolar and highly medicated type more so then she does the sociopath type. Her dissociation and apathy strike me more as "nobody's home" then "nobody cares".

Though I can see a personality disorder for sure....most likely narcissism.

But of course that's just my guess.

 

[ThinkHard]

Imho. She was also a sociopath. So is Burke.
Check out this link. Pretty interesting the signs and symptoms.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/201305/how-spot-sociopath

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

Yes but we can't forget that she also had ovarian cancer, which would have effected her hormone levels.mand this would affect her behavior as well.

 

[doubtingthomas]

I am not new to WS but new to this forum. I began following here after watching the A&E and CBS episodes. IIRC there was a post wondering how PR could have done this to JBR. I wanted to toss this out to see what others thought. If it has already been discussed then disregard.

Since PR was suppose to be up packing for the next day, what if she went to look in on the kids and found that neither one of them were in their bed. She goes looking for them. She finds them in the basement and BR has struck JBR with the flashlight knocking her out. She sends BR to his room. Upon tending to JBR she is breathing but not moving. In her mind she thinks BR has hit her hard enough to cause brain damage but she is still alive. She panics knowing that JBR would never be able to enter any more beauty pageants. She would now have to take of an invalid child along with a not normal son. So she finishes her off and stages the whole thing. She may even have blamed it all on BR to JR to get him to go along with it.