The Case of JonBenet Ramsey-CBS Sept. 18 # 2

[DeDee]

I have read the majority of the media putting suspicion on the Ramseys.

As for co-operating, regardless of the Ramsey's innocence or guilt, generally speaking if you don't have a great alibi, and you are cliche suspect material (spouse, family member, neighbor, in the vicinity), you could be in big trouble. The Olympic Park bombing is a classic case. Richard Jewell couldn't have been any more accomodating to the authorities. And within a few days they were leaking to the press, and it was all over: Jewell, did it. I mean just look at the guy. He's weird. He's guilty...and so on and so forth. I'm sure the authorities have a bias to playing the percentages when looking at suspects. And once they get their hooks in, they are very determined and play hard, and they take a large proportion of the public with them. The only way they think you are co-operating is if you confess, and you can't do that if you are innocent. It destroyed Richard Jewell's life, anyway.

Bumping this comment to answer a query that you posted earlier on thread #2.

Absence of evidence of a break-in imo is weak evidence ruling out an intruder. Especially for that home where many people had visited and people outside the family had been in the possession of keys. Another poster he says that all the keys were accounted for. That is impossible because it does not take into account that a key could be copied.

What about the fibre found at JB's bed, you did not comment on that. I would be interested to hear you explain that.

Brendon, perhaps you have confused the two different kinds of rope found in the home. One was used for strangling JonBenet. Those rope or cord fibers were not found on her bed. The rope fibers found on JBs bed were from the rope found in JARs room in the brown paper bag. It is a thicker, stronger rope used for rock climbing. Thus, it is a totally different rope than the white cording that was used to asphyxiate JonBenet.

BTW ~ Tricia Griffith, the owner of this website, does not allow Intruder theories on the JonBenet Ramsey forum any longer and hasn't in a while. She has documented that fact for a reason. There was No Intruder in the Ramsey home the night JonBenet died.

 

[Tortoise]

What he's is talking about here is something that is referred to as "Theory of Mind" aka the ability to out yourself in someone else's shoes.

However what I will disagree with him on, as I will with many experts who seem to overlap these two things when they do not always overlap......is that someone can struggle with "Theory of Mind" without lacking empathy.

You see if you do not think about things the same way as everyone else, you will not react to things the same way everyone else does, and thus it can be difficult to understand the other person perspective, or why they are so upset when it's over something you find no big deal. One example is that kids with aspergers are often so infirmation focused, it's hard for them to think of facts and feelings at the same time. So they might go on and on about a subject of interest, yet never pick up cues that the other person is board or not grasp that the person wouldn't be interested because it is simply so interesting to them, how can it not be to others.

That however does not mean the person also lacks empathy, and doesn't care when they have hurt someone, or when they hear a sad story, or see someone in pain.

So they can go hand in hand, but they do not always, and he takes a big leap saying because someone who can't interpret the world through others eyes also doesn't care about anything. I mean for the RN writer this could very well be true....but it's still a leap to assume that just because "theory of mind" is absent.

Interesting. I also thought it was a big leap, but not when viewed in relation to her behaviour. She was able to perform the task of writing the note within minutes of knowing her daughter was dead. That is by no means small or insignificant. I've followed another case this year (I went to the court to watch the trial) where a 6 year old daughter was murdered in a fit of rage by her stay at home father, and her mother was summoned home from work to help him cover it up and make it look like an accident. They spent an hour staging the bedroom to make it look like the daughter had fallen from a stool, then washing their clothes and removing incriminating items from the house before calling an ambulance. The mother admitted perverting the course of justice (knowing her daughter was dead in her room for an hour, but not knowing it wasn't an accident from falling) and was also found guilty of child cruelty - not seeking medical treatment for her daughter's broken shoulder a month before the murder. It isn't the same situation as the writing of the ransom note. I'm talking about the capacity of a person of no mental disorder, in the aftermath of the death of their child, to even think about using lines from movies, brown paper bags for the money, getting rest, and 'good southern common sense' etc. That is a flight of fantasy and it has to be said, a sign of detachment from grief. Later we have Patsy acting on the 911 call, and the phone operator hearing her dropping the charade when she thinks she can't be heard. And even later still, after JonBenet is brought up from the basement, we have Patsy screaming. Now if that is not an act I don't know what is. It is turned on for the benefit of the audience, because she already knew all day. Also the detective noticing Patsy crying with her hands up over her face while peering at him between her fingers. Now here she had an opportunity to really cry and feel grief stricken, but she is thinking about witnesses and their reactions.

I've seen a lot to convince me that Delmar England was not wrong.

 

[DeDee]

I've never seen anything in the way of proof that it was BR's feces in JB's room, and not her own. Does anyone have this?

Hiya, Tortoise. The crime lab did not test the feces. The fact of its presence on the box of chocolates came from James Kolar's book.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?227384-Feces/page2

 

[CoreyRocks]

I don't think BR had ANY problem recognizing what was in this bowl - https://www.bing.com/images/search?...ba622a530ff709b9feb19fo0&mode=overlay&first=1 he was just having difficulty admitting to it... My eyesight's not that great but this is clearly pineapples.

Re: not identifying the pineapple ... the interviewer asked Burke if it is cereal? Burke responds No and points to one specific piece and says something like this one piece is too big (for cereal) ..... hmmmmm.

 

[ThinkHard]

June 1998

So when he would have been trying to throwing his sailing buddy FW under the bus about ?

 

[Tortoise]

Hiya, Tortoise. The crime lab did not test the feces. The fact of its presence on the box of chocolates came from James Kolar's book.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?227384-Feces/page2

Thanks DeDee. So it was a smearing and we are no further along in knowing who smeared it, or whether it was deliberate or not.

Maybe it led to the head bash even. JB is going to tell Mom and he stops her in her tracks. So many possibilities.

 

[Tortoise]

So when he would have been trying to throwing his sailing buddy FW under the bus about ?

Good one.

 

[ThinkHard]

Bumping this comment to answer a query that you posted earlier on thread #2.



Brendon, perhaps you have confused the two different kinds of rope found in the home. One was used for strangling JonBenet. Those rope or cord fibers were not found on her bed. The rope fibers found on JBs bed were from the rope found in JARs room in the brown paper bag. It is a thicker, stronger rope used for rock climbing. Thus, it is a totally different rope than the white cording that was used to asphyxiate JonBenet.

BTW ~ Tricia Griffith, the owner of this website, does not allow Intruder theories on the JonBenet Ramsey forum any longer and hasn't in a while. She has documented that fact for a reason. There was No Intruder in the Ramsey home the night JonBenet died.

WOAH! I just had a thought! Sailing line is the same kind of line used in rock climbing, it's that nylon braided line......anyway, it's a certain type of nylon on the outside where the color is....but this is braided around white thinner line in the middle.

And it just occurred to me that inner line looks EXACTLY like the line used on the garrot!

Like EXACTLY......

 

[ThinkHard]

Interesting. I also thought it was a big leap, but not when viewed in relation to her behaviour. She was able to perform the task of writing the note within minutes of knowing her daughter was dead. That is by no means small or insignificant. I've followed another case this year (I went to the court to watch the trial) where a 6 year old daughter was murdered in a fit of rage by her stay at home father, and her mother was summoned home from work to help him cover it up and make it look like an accident. They spent an hour staging the bedroom to make it look like the daughter had fallen from a stool, then washing their clothes and removing incriminating items from the house before calling an ambulance. The mother admitted perverting the course of justice (knowing her daughter was dead in her room for an hour, but not knowing it wasn't an accident from falling) and was also found guilty of child cruelty - not seeking medical treatment for her daughter's broken shoulder a month before the murder. It isn't the same situation as the writing of the ransom note. I'm talking about the capacity of a person of no mental disorder, in the aftermath of the death of their child, to even think about using lines from movies, brown paper bags for the money, getting rest, and 'good southern common sense' etc. That is a flight of fantasy and it has to be said, a sign of detachment from grief. Later we have Patsy acting on the 911 call, and the phone operator hearing her dropping the charade when she thinks she can't be heard. And even later still, after JonBenet is brought up from the basement, we have Patsy screaming. Now if that is not an act I don't know what is. It is turned on for the benefit of the audience, because she already knew all day. Also the detective noticing Patsy crying with her hands up over her face while peering at him between her fingers. Now here she had an opportunity to really cry and feel grief stricken, but she is thinking about witnesses and their reactions.

I've seen a lot to convince me that Delmar England was not wrong.

I only meant it was a big leap for someone solely using the RN as a reference point.

I am however not convinced that the only possibility for that note was Patsy, I think Burke was capable of executing this entire thing, right down to planning out the staging before he committed the crime.

That doesn't mean I don't think PR isn't crazy, they do share DNA after all. I just think it's less likely her crazy manifested into murder, I think it's more likely Burke is the one who would have gone there, he was the one least likely to understand the entire ramifications of the bigger picture, even with the capability to stage a crime scene.

I think he thought, she's the problem, I want her gone, they'll be sad, but they'll move on, and life will go on with them all to myself and life will be back to normal again. I think he genuinely thought that's what would happen. Of course jmo.

 

[ThinkHard]

Here are two knots that would have been taught in Sailing (and perhaps boy scouts).

Clove hitch & half hitch.

View attachment 102130View attachment 102131

 

[Frigga]

WOAH! I just had a thought! Sailing line is the same kind of line used in rock climbing, it's that nylon braided line......anyway, it's a certain type of nylon on the outside where the color is....but this is braided around white thinner line in the middle.

And it just occurred to me that inner line looks EXACTLY like the line used on the garrot!

Like EXACTLY......

View attachment 102125View attachment 102126View attachment 102127

Wow! Great work!

 

[Heymom]

But LE did find records of the purchase of just the white cord, yes? Pretty sure I remember that the cord was able to be placed in the house, even if LE never found the rest of it.

 

[UKGuy]

But LE did find records of the purchase of just the white cord, yes? Pretty sure I remember that the cord was able to be placed in the house, even if LE never found the rest of it.

Heymom,
Just a receipt with a price matching that of the cord, i.e. no product description, from memory a week or so before Christmas, nothing that would stand up in court.


.

 

[ThinkHard]

Oh MY GOD! There's more I just thought of when I zoomed in on the photos.....the end of the line on the garrote is melted.

When you cut line like that in sailing one of the most common ways to do this is to heat a paint scrapper with a blow torch so when you slice the line the heat melts it on both sides and it doesn't fray.

So then I think of how the knife belonging to Burke was found near hear body, and then I think....where would he get a flame? ......which makes me think of the cigar box! ..... Not as effective as a blow torch, but to a resourceful child with sailing exposure, this might just make sense to use as materials.

 

[UKGuy]

Interesting. I also thought it was a big leap, but not when viewed in relation to her behaviour. She was able to perform the task of writing the note within minutes of knowing her daughter was dead. That is by no means small or insignificant. I've followed another case this year (I went to the court to watch the trial) where a 6 year old daughter was murdered in a fit of rage by her stay at home father, and her mother was summoned home from work to help him cover it up and make it look like an accident. They spent an hour staging the bedroom to make it look like the daughter had fallen from a stool, then washing their clothes and removing incriminating items from the house before calling an ambulance. The mother admitted perverting the course of justice (knowing her daughter was dead in her room for an hour, but not knowing it wasn't an accident from falling) and was also found guilty of child cruelty - not seeking medical treatment for her daughter's broken shoulder a month before the murder. It isn't the same situation as the writing of the ransom note. I'm talking about the capacity of a person of no mental disorder, in the aftermath of the death of their child, to even think about using lines from movies, brown paper bags for the money, getting rest, and 'good southern common sense' etc. That is a flight of fantasy and it has to be said, a sign of detachment from grief. Later we have Patsy acting on the 911 call, and the phone operator hearing her dropping the charade when she thinks she can't be heard. And even later still, after JonBenet is brought up from the basement, we have Patsy screaming. Now if that is not an act I don't know what is. It is turned on for the benefit of the audience, because she already knew all day. Also the detective noticing Patsy crying with her hands up over her face while peering at him between her fingers. Now here she had an opportunity to really cry and feel grief stricken, but she is thinking about witnesses and their reactions.

I've seen a lot to convince me that Delmar England was not wrong.

Tortoise,
If this is the UK case its a shocking one. The mother explicitly staged and covered for the father, and not for the first time. Do you think because Patsy accomplished whatever staging she did, including the RN, then as some of the True Bill charges suggest, e.g. neglect she was already aware of prior circumstances in which JonBenet had been assaulted?

.

 

[UKGuy]

Oh MY GOD! There's more I just thought of when I zoomed in on the photos.....the end of the line on the garrote is melted.

When you cut line like that in sailing one of the most common ways to do this is to heat a paint scrapper with a blow torch so when you slice the line the heat melts it on both sides and it doesn't fray.

So then I think of how the knife belonging to Burke was found near hear body, and then I think....where would he get a flame? ......which makes me think of the cigar box! ..... Not as effective as a blow torch, but to a resourceful child with sailing exposure, this might just make sense to use as materials.

View attachment 102132View attachment 102133

ThinkHard,
Given the circumstances just cutting the cord would be sufficient?

.

 

[ThinkHard]

ThinkHard,
Given the circumstances just cutting the cord would be sufficient?

.

Yes, but it appears to be melted not cut. It could have been cut and then melted at the end afterwards to prevent fraying. Which is actually more likely then him heating the blade of the knife and then cutting with it.

 

[ThinkHard]

Tortoise,
If this is the UK case its a shocking one. The mother explicitly staged and covered for the father, and not for the first time. Do you think because Patsy accomplished whatever staging she did, including the RN, then as some of the True Bill charges suggest, e.g. neglect she was already aware of prior circumstances in which JonBenet had been assaulted?

.

Here is my question, if the GJ thought Patsy held more liability in staging then John, wouldn't there be indications of this in their wording?

 

[UKGuy]

Here is my question, if the GJ thought Patsy held more liability in staging then John, wouldn't there be indications of this in their wording?

ThinkHard,
Not really since the available forensic evidence delineates what they could prove, but I'll bet they thought Patsy played a major role?

 

[UKGuy]

Yes, but it appears to be melted not cut. It could have been cut and then melted at the end afterwards to prevent fraying. Which is actually more likely then him heating the blade of the knife and then cutting with it.

ThinkHard,
Why bother with all that if all you want is a ligature, not saying you are wrong just that it appears quite complex behavior?

.