The Case of JonBenet Ramsey-CBS Sept. 18 # 2

[madeleine]

Kolar article

The undoing shows that one person was responsible for the injuries and someone else was responsible for covering her up, concealing her and trying to in their own mind make her comfortable following the violence. I think two different sets of hands were involved, not literally, but this was fairly vicious. When you look at the blow to her head, we don’t know if it was intentional to kill her but it was a pretty heavy blunt object that was used to strike her in the head. Then there’s the pretty severe garrotting taking place, which seemed to be overkill for someone of her size or age. An adult could have easily suffocated her with a hand or strangled her with a hand versus using a cord to end her life.

So those are pretty vicious attacks when you look at the violence involved in the injuries and then, contrary to that, she’s placed and wrapped in a blanket “like a papoose”, according to John’s statement of the discovery of his daughter. That’s more of a caring act towards the victim compared to leaving them sprawled out on the floor for discovery and not protected in a blanket with her favourite nightgown next to her.




ETA link

https://www.realcrimedaily.com/debu...what-was-the-familys-real-role-in-the-murder/

 

[UKGuy]

I am not ThinkHard, but I can think hard..;--)

My theory on the cord length is that JBR was tied to something. Be it a chair, a hook in the wall, something that would keep her in place. I am even going so far to theorize, that BR may have tried to
"copy" the MYTWINN doll bindings on to JBR! He may have tried to make her "look like the doll" in the box she got for Christmas.

That's why I was asking during a chat, if there were any boxes left in the basement or in the garage, where they stored the Christmas trees. Not sure, if they were artificial or not.

Again, in my book she was tied to something, possibly at a higher point, than her head. She may have been tied to a hook in the wall while standing on a chair for example. There was a chair discussion I recall concerning the location of a chair. According to JR there was a chair in front of the train room door. He had to move it to access the door according to his statement. Awwww, here goes the intruder theory - once again..

-Nin

No it's not,
If she was tied prior to her death she does not appear to have any cord abrasions on her? Its more likely BR faked an assault by using the cord as fake restraints, which was later reused?

.

 

[Niner]

Still reading the other thread.... cguru:


otg Thanks for the explaination of Burke talking to Doug Stine about the strangulation story!

I am seeing that said on several other media sites as well. I haven't watched any of the shows on JB nor do I plan to do so.

:wave: oceanblueeyes! If you aren't going to watch any of the shows, how are you going to get a objective/theory on this case? Have you followed this case from the beginning? Don't recall if you said if you did.


Okay - I've been thinking :thinking: what if Burke and JonBenet had pineapple when they returned from the Whites. If I recall - Burke said at first that when they were going up stairs for bed - JonBenet was right in front of him. Than later Burke goes down and wants more pineapple and play with his new toy. JonBenet hears him down there and goes down - wants pineapple - and Burke says "NO" - and chases her down to the basement... Just a thought!


Way, way behind on these threads... okay back to reading...

 

[CoreyRocks]

As far as the ransom note I believe it may have been dictated by John as Patsy wrote. Wouldn't it read, "Read Carefully" or "Follow Carefully" ... you can't really LISTEN carefully if no one is actually talking.

Imho John was more involved than some think. I think he had more control. Even though PR seems all tough, we know what an actress she was. John, imho, is also narcissistic, large and in charge. PR would probably do whatever he said, including writing the note as John spoke it to her. If she was under his thumb so to speak like a submissive wife. He seemed to be controlling in their interviews too, mouthing words as she spoke, as if scripted. Some of my prior posts said how JR could have been the mastermind, and made it look like PR so she could take the blame. Alot do blame her, so it worked, but I just feel John is more involved than we think.

I've heard ad nauseum that he had tenderness for JonBenet, but I don't see it.

MOO

 

[PositiveLight]

ThinkHard,
Why bother with all that if all you want is a ligature, not saying you are wrong just that it appears quite complex behavior?

.

Actually ThinkHard you may have a good idea going. Many have said the garrote was made at an earlier time. Possibly for another reason. The housekeeper stated one just like it was around a box in the basement. Now if you go a long with this theory, it would make sense. If you are using the cording to keep something closed for an extended period of time, you wouldn't want it to fray. Imho it is melted at the end. So it could be a possible scenerio. Whoever did the strangulation just used something already nearby. It would make sense.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

 

[PositiveLight]

ThinkHard,
Possibly, one thing I've always wondered about, was why it was so long in length?


.

This may have been already replied to. Just catching up now. I strongly believe it was initially used for something else. Maybe to close a large box? I know that we use rope to close our Christmas tree boxes. With their Christmas trees still in use, it could be possible that these kind of ropes were laying around until the Christmas trees were put back up in storage. Just a thought.

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[DeDee]

I guess my thinking was, if they had way more evidence then we ever will, and still can't implicate PR anymore heavily over JR, then perhaps that's a clue to Burke having a far heavier hand in all this?

I concur with BR having a heavier hand in the death of his sister, as listed in the True Bills signed by the GJ. So much more of the facts and evidence makes sense to me now.

ThinkHard,
Possibly, one thing I've always wondered about, was why it was so long in length?


.

*GRAPHIC WARNING *
Scroll and roll
Length of cording:

The broken paint stick was attached by a length of cord long enough to enter JBs vagina to violate and penetrate without her permission or consent. If so, then the murder weapon was also used to sexually torture JB. We know that JonBenet was hurt badly enough for her to cry prior to death because of the mucous stains on her precious little face.

"Monster" is the right word for the kidnapper, James Kolar.

 

[No it's not]

No it's not,
If she was tied prior to her death she does not appear to have any cord abrasions on her? Its more likely BR faked an assault by using the cord as fake restraints, which was later reused?

.

That 's one possibility. How about BR ties her up, while she is sitting on a chair. She may even be dressed as the doll? Are they playing "kidnapping"? He applies the sling to the neck and runs the cord through something- the back of the chair? He pulls too hard and she starts shouting, he hits her on the shoulder to be quiet. Now she screams, and he hits her hard on her head in a panic. Complete panic. He pokes her with the train track prongs? He is crying and panicking. He eventually wakes up one or both of his parents. In the meantime JBR has convulsions and had fallen off the chair. She accidently strangulated herself or he was later finished up that way in the belief she had already died from the head trauma.

-Nin

 

[SecretaryGal]

Oh MY GOD! There's more I just thought of when I zoomed in on the photos.....the end of the line on the garrote is melted.

When you cut line like that in sailing one of the most common ways to do this is to heat a paint scrapper with a blow torch so when you slice the line the heat melts it on both sides and it doesn't fray.

So then I think of how the knife belonging to Burke was found near hear body, and then I think....where would he get a flame? ......which makes me think of the cigar box! ..... Not as effective as a blow torch, but to a resourceful child with sailing exposure, this might just make sense to use as materials.

View attachment 102132View attachment 102133

This is great work Thinkhard!

 

[reintarnation]

Pausing for a moment here.

I read an article today from a journalist in Maine drawing comparisons between JonBenet and a 20-month old named Ayla Reynolds. Ayla went missing in 2011. There is history of abuse by the father, and she was last in her father's home on the night of her disappearance. Blood, saliva, and vomit was found in the father's home and vehicle - not just a little bit, either, but enough for the police to declare that they are not expecting to find Ayla alive. But somehow, the father is NOT being prosecuted for this crime. It's baffling and frustrating and heartbreaking.

If you go to the websleuths forum on this case (link below), you'll see some recent links to two podcasts about Ayla as well as links to a petition for Justin's prosecution and Ayla's Go Fund Me page to raise money for pursuing her case.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...lle-17-December-2011-10/page46&highlight=ayla

We all know that JonBenet deserved better, and she deserves for the truth to come out. Ayla, too, deserves better. She deserves to be found and properly laid to rest. She deserves to have her killer prosecuted.

I never make pleas like this, but Ayla's case has touched me just as JonBenet's had. There are so many sad cases, I know. Just for your consideration, and many thanks.

 

[SecretaryGal]

Kolar article

The undoing shows that one person was responsible for the injuries and someone else was responsible for covering her up, concealing her and trying to in their own mind make her comfortable following the violence. I think two different sets of hands were involved, not literally, but this was fairly vicious. When you look at the blow to her head, we don’t know if it was intentional to kill her but it was a pretty heavy blunt object that was used to strike her in the head. Then there’s the pretty severe garrotting taking place, which seemed to be overkill for someone of her size or age. An adult could have easily suffocated her with a hand or strangled her with a hand versus using a cord to end her life.

So those are pretty vicious attacks when you look at the violence involved in the injuries and then, contrary to that, she’s placed and wrapped in a blanket “like a papoose”, according to John’s statement of the discovery of his daughter. That’s more of a caring act towards the victim compared to leaving them sprawled out on the floor for discovery and not protected in a blanket with her favourite nightgown next to her.




ETA link

https://www.realcrimedaily.com/debu...what-was-the-familys-real-role-in-the-murder/

Maybe when JR when down there and found her that morning he grabbed the blanket from the dryer and put it over her. We really have no way to know how the blanket was on her. BR could even have tossed it over her.

 

[PositiveLight]

Pausing for a moment here.

I read an article today from a journalist in Maine drawing comparisons between JonBenet and a 20-month old named Ayla Reynolds. Ayla went missing in 2011. There is history of abuse by the father, and she was last in her father's home on the night of her disappearance. Blood, saliva, and vomit was found in the father's home and vehicle - not just a little bit, either, but enough for the police to declare that they are not expecting to find Ayla alive. But somehow, the father is NOT being prosecuted for this crime. It's baffling and frustrating and heartbreaking.

If you go to the websleuths forum on this case (link below), you'll see some recent links to two podcasts about Ayla as well as links to a petition for Justin's prosecution and Ayla's Go Fund Me page to raise money for pursuing her case.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...lle-17-December-2011-10/page46&highlight=ayla

We all know that JonBenet deserved better, and she deserves for the truth to come out. Ayla, too, deserves better. She deserves to be found and properly laid to rest. She deserves to have her killer prosecuted.

I never make pleas like this, but Ayla's case has touched me just as JonBenet's had. There are so many sad cases, I know. Just for your consideration, and many thanks.

See this is the exact reason these cases need to be solved and the perps charged and convicted. Just because the Ramsey's were rich, does NOT exclude them from being suspects. How can anyone say that PR and JR and BR aren't capable when there are so many cases that prove different? Seriously it makes me sick to my stomach to hear that. The more I read, the more it becomes obvious that the family did it and covered for each other in one way or another. There was no intruder. Imho that's complete hogwash. The reason they weren't charged (as the GJ found) was because they had the cash to fund a substantial smear campaign for anyone that was close to them and people who couldn't defend themselves. JR went broke doing so. That alone tells me that he was willing to throw away everything he worked to earn just to keep them from being prosecuted. LW is just a money hungry lawyer that's willing to sell his soul to make the mighty buck. He could care less if his clients go broke or if JBR ever receives justice. Disgusting to me. MOO
These poor kids are being killed by those they believe love them and unless people stand up and say enough! There will never be justice.

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[johnjay]

Well this was interesting: from the link provide above:

https://www.realcrimedaily.com/debu...what-was-the-familys-real-role-in-the-murder/

Why do you think Burke has never spoken to the media about his sister’s murder?

I think he probably wants to stay out of the media spotlight. I think it’s probably based on legal advice as well, to not speak to the media. There was a lot of focus and attention on this case both nationally and internationally, and I suspect that the family got tired of that as well and wanted to protect him rather than offer him up for interviews. I talked to a network producer several years ago who said they had made an approach to see if he would be interested in interviewing. I was told he wanted a pretty big sum of money to do so. It sounded like he was willing to do the interview but they weren’t willing to come up with the kind of figure they might have been talking about. That was what was relayed to me by the producer.

 

[neesaki]

As far as the ransom note I believe it may have been dictated by John as Patsy wrote. Wouldn't it read, "Read Carefully" or "Follow Carefully" ... you can't really LISTEN carefully if no one is actually talking.

Imho John was more involved than some think. I think he had more control. Even though PR seems all tough, we know what an actress she was. John, imho, is also narcissistic, large and in charge. PR would probably do whatever he said, including writing the note as John spoke it to her. If she was under his thumb so to speak like a submissive wife. He seemed to be controlling in their interviews too, mouthing words as she spoke, as if scripted. Some of my prior posts said how JR could have been the mastermind, and made it look like PR so she could take the blame. Alot do blame her, so it worked, but I just feel John is more involved than we think.

I've heard ad nauseum that he had tenderness for JonBenet, but I don't see it.

MOO

Ya know, I think you could be right, that JR was more involved than I have believed for the longest time. Thus making it look like he himself was a target of the kidnapper, to try and direct atttention away from the family. It was his idea because I highly doubt PR was even able to think coherently during that time. JR, totally cool and collected, that's what I think now.

 

[ThinkHard]

That was the only end that was sealed though. All the others were left cut and frayed. To me it looks like that was the only end that was sealed because it came from the beginning of a new roll of cord.

It might not be because it was the new end of a new cord....if the line used on the garrote was from the inner of nylon sailing or climbing line, then where that lines end was surely would have been melted at the end. You can break this crust if you work it with your fingers, and it would be possible to slide one of the inner cords out with destroying or unraveling the whole line. So it's possible that line could be melted on the end if it was pulled out of the inside in this manner.

 

[ThinkHard]

I could guess that this would be commensurate with John's arm span. I think JB was strangled before the paintbrush handle was added, it was added for drama.

Why would his arm span have anything to do with the lengths of the line?

 

[ThinkHard]

I am not ThinkHard, but I can think hard..;--)

My theory on the cord length is that JBR was tied to something. Be it a chair, a hook in the wall, something that would keep her in place. I am even going so far to theorize, that BR may have tried to
"copy" the MYTWINN doll bindings on to JBR! He may have tried to make her "look like the doll" in the box she got for Christmas.

That's why I was asking during a chat, if there were any boxes left in the basement or in the garage, where they stored the Christmas trees. Not sure, if they were artificial or not.

Again, in my book she was tied to something, possibly at a higher point, than her head. She may have been tied to a hook in the wall while standing on a chair for example. There was a chair discussion I recall concerning the location of a chair. According to JR there was a chair in front of the train room door. He had to move it to access the door according to his statement. Awwww, here goes the intruder theory - once again..

-Nin

Are you implying she was tied to something by her neck or by her hands?

 

[ThinkHard]

Tortoise,
Its a bit like the RN, overdone. Its as if the cord for the ligature had another purpose but was re purposed as a ligature?


.

I think the most likely explanation is that it was something Burke had rigged up before that night.

 

[ThinkHard]

I concur with BR having a heavier hand in the death of his sister, as listed in the True Bills signed by the GJ. So much more of the facts and evidence makes sense to me now.



*GRAPHIC WARNING *
Scroll and roll
Length of cording:

The broken paint stick was attached by a length of cord long enough to enter JBs vagina to violate and penetrate without her permission or consent. If so, then the murder weapon was also used to sexually torture JB. We know that JonBenet was hurt badly enough for her to cry prior to death because of the mucous stains on her precious little face.

"Monster" is the right word for the kidnapper, James Kolar.

Ok but that doesn't mean the cord was around her neck at the same time she was being violated. Say Burke was using the wooden part of the garrote on JBR and poked to far and she screamed and tries to get away, and trips or he trips her and pins her on the ground sitting on top of her with the garrot still in his hands from violating her with it....and to quiet her up, while sitting on her back wraps the garrot around her neck, but realizes how difficult this is, because she's stil squirming around so he reaches for the flashlight and bashes it into her head. This struggle could also account for some of the additional bruising found on her.

 

[Tortoise]

Why would his arm span have anything to do with the lengths of the line?

It's not something that I spent time thinking on, it was just one of those things that popped into my head, like a man is going to make or cut a length of cord and unravels a larger length than a smaller person does, just because they are built bigger and act in bigger ways. Plus, whoever made it had in mind adding a garrote which although not used as a garrote would leave that impression to whoever found it, so they knew it would have to look long enough to have been used in a twisting fashion. I don't know, I was just looking for any reason why it had been cut in a long piece. Brain storming ideas.