The Case of JonBenet Ramsey-CBS Sept. 18 # 2

[andreww]

What is confusing about all this is that the knot on the garrotte is supposedly complex, yet the hand restraints were of poor caliber, like they were tied by a 9 rear old. So does burke hit her with the flashlight, prod her with the train track in an attempt to awake her, then tie her and tape her mouth? Could be, but that wouldn't explain Patsy's sweater fibres on the inside of that tape.

 

[spitsthetruth]

I usually hate any documentaries on this case as we know they tend only snippits of a single theory with a short amount of time to cover 1000 of hours of case study in one of the most convoluted cases in history. Typically people with little research then offer opinions half cocked. I see a lot of post after the CBS documentary from some of the new sleuths whos first issue with the theory is " Why such and extensive, drawn out violent cover up for a 9 year old who committed and accidental death and why make the crime look worse?" I also have see a lot of post questioning the Murder 1 charge by the grand jury as it indicates pre-meditated murder. ( How could they ever prove premeditation right, much less against BR).

I'm sure some of the more experienced folks on here that picked up on subtle references to things that were omitted for legal reasons I'm assuming
realize that this documentary just laid out what the prosecutors approach was to be in the grand jury.

If you take the theory laid out in this documentry and add the McCann, Wecht, Spitz study of the autopsy report concluding sexual abuse both past and immediate I think it lines up perfectly with every charge brought to the grand jury as well as most conclusions from the ME report and it explains much of the elements believed by all sides to be staged.

The staging to me was never about covering up and accidental death from BR, it was about covering up ongoing sexual abuse.

The best way to do that would seem to stage it to look like a perv just sexually assaulted her.

Following this chain of events....BR strikes JBR with blunt object knocking her unconscious and eventually brain dead but heart still beating. ( cause of death 2 on ME report ). BR pokes JBR with train track to see if she is ok. JR or PR or both find body. JR realizes an ME will surely notice signs of sexual abuse and staging begins. JR or PR apply garrot finally killing JBR by asphyxiation due to strangulation. ( cause of death 1 on ME report ) The strangulation resulting in full death would be pre-meditated at this point.

I also believe from carefully reading the charges brought to the GJ and also reading the conclusions of Dr. McCann's group and many early observations of BR that prosecutors believed BR had been the one sexually assaulting JBR but believe it may have been with an object.

I also believe since murder 1 was on both PR and JR indictments that it could not be determined which applied the garrotte.

I'm not saying that this is the only path for this case but it seems to fit the path the prosecution presented to the grand jury.

 

[ThinkHard]

See this is the exact reason these cases need to be solved and the perps charged and convicted. Just because the Ramsey's were rich, does NOT exclude them from being suspects. How can anyone say that PR and JR and BR aren't capable when there are so many cases that prove different? Seriously it makes me sick to my stomach to hear that. The more I read, the more it becomes obvious that the family did it and covered for each other in one way or another. There was no intruder. Imho that's complete hogwash. The reason they weren't charged (as the GJ found) was because they had the cash to fund a substantial smear campaign for anyone that was close to them and people who couldn't defend themselves. JR went broke doing so. That alone tells me that he was willing to throw away everything he worked to earn just to keep them from being prosecuted. LW is just a money hungry lawyer that's willing to sell his soul to make the mighty buck. He could care less if his clients go broke or if JBR ever receives justice. Disgusting to me. MOO
These poor kids are being killed by those they believe love them and unless people stand up and say enough! There will never be justice.

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Ok but what does that have to do with AR family, they were by no means rich.

 

[ThinkHard]

Ya know, I think you could be right, that JR was more involved than I have believed for the longest time. Thus making it look like he himself was a target of the kidnapper, to try and direct atttention away from the family. It was his idea because I highly doubt PR was even able to think coherently during that time. JR, totally cool and collected, that's what I think now.

JR was a successful businessman, if he was the mastermind, that ransom letter wouldn't have sounded nearly as childish or ridiculous. And their would have been far fewer mistakes and slip ups and contradictions in the staging.

No I think JR was late to the party, not the brains behind the operation. He may have his own devious reasons he wanted to protect for going along with it, but in my opinion no way no how was he the mastermind.

 

[ThinkHard]

It's not something that I spent time thinking on, it was just one of those things that popped into my head, like a man is going to make or cut a length of cord and unravels a larger length than a smaller person does, just because they are built bigger and act in bigger ways. Plus, whoever made it had in mind adding a garrote which although not used as a garrote would leave that impression to whoever found it, so they knew it would have to look long enough to have been used in a twisting fashion. I don't know, I was just looking for any reason why it had been cut in a long piece. Brain storming ideas.

My apologies, I don't follow, like at all. And I don't want to misunderstand your meaning.

In my experience kids always over estimate how much string they need for an art project or the like, and I'm always like well not that much, that's too long...I feel like adults have a much more realistic concept of length then an a child, and I actually think there is a higher probability a child would cut far more line then they actually needed.

Also How do you know who ever made it had in mind a garrote? .... I can honestly just see a kid rigging something like that up, it's simple hitch knots around a paint brush handle. Hardly sophisticated. Those type of knots are designed to tie line to a pole, so you can't tie hitches without something to tie it too. That to me doesn't mean it was intentionally a garrote. I see it as being more something a boy would build and swing around, as they would numchucks.

Also what do you mean by it would look that way to whoever found it? Are you suggesting the creator and the user were two different people?

I don't really understand why the maker would have to make it so someone else would know to use it in a twisting fashion?

Not trying to be snarky at all, just feeling lost, and am afraid maybe I missed what point you are trying to make. Thanks in advance.

 

[ThinkHard]

What is confusing about all this is that the knot on the garrotte is supposedly complex, yet the hand restraints were of poor caliber, like they were tied by a 9 rear old. So does burke hit her with the flashlight, prod her with the train track in an attempt to awake her, then tie her and tape her mouth? Could be, but that wouldn't explain Patsy's sweater fibres on the inside of that tape.

What is complex about the knots on the garrote?

Also its possible with a fuzzy sweater, that they could have been transferred from Burke. Sweater fuzz has the tendency to stick to other materials, so if she touch Burke, hugged him in the sweater while he was in the same clothes he murdered her in, this could account for her sweater fibers under that tape.

I suppose it depends on how much was found, and how fuzzy the sweater was, and how adhesive with said fuzz whatever Burke was wearing that day was.

As anyone with pets can attest, different fabrics attract different amounts of hair, and certain fur is more apt to stick to certain materials.

 

[Tortoise]

I don't follow, like at all.

In my experience kids always over estimate how much string they need for an art project or the like, and I'm always like well not that much, that's too long...I feel like adults have a much more realistic concept of length then an a child, and I actually think there is a higher probability a child would cut far more line then they actually needed.

Also How do you know who ever made it had in mind a garrote? .... I can honestly just see a kid rigging something like that up, it's simple hitch knots around a paint brush handle. Hardly sophisticated. Those type of knots are designed to tie line to a pole, so you can't tie hitches without something to tie it too. That to me doesn't mean it was intentionally a garrote.

Also what do you mean by it would look they way to whoever found it? Are you suggesting the creator and the user were two different people?

I don't really understand why the maker would have to make it so someone else would know to use it in a twisting fashion?

Not trying to be snarky at all, just feeling lost, and am afraid maybe I missed what point you are trying to make.

Well I think I have explained, and I don't think what I wrote was difficult to follow. Maybe you just have a different idea and it doesn't fit with what I suggested? I wasn't trying to make a point.

 

[PositiveLight]

Ok but what does that have to do with AR family, they were no means rich.

I am just stating that too many kids are dying at the hands of family members. Those who aren't rich enough will pay for it. As they should. Those who do have the money, can buy their way to freedom.
I'm hoping the AR family finds closure soon. I think they will too. Because those guilty don't have millions to waste on a powerful defense team. I'm hoping that they don't have to wait 20+ years to find the killer.
Parents who harm their kids do see these cases. They probably think they can get away with it too. Anthony did. (Grrrr!)
Anyway I just had a bee in my bonnet that money and threats are keeping JBR from obtaining justice.
Tooooo manyyyy kids are dying. It's alarming!
I'm not sure on the facts about what I'm about to say but...imho....from what reaches the news media and has been broadcast...(we know here there's so many more cases that don't make headlines) it seems to me that more parents kill their own kids now than say, before the 1980s.
MOO but am I the only person who seems to notice this trend? Maybe it's just that there's more main stream media that makes it seem that way.
Like for example there was a period of time (still going if you ask me) where teens were shooting up schools and other places if for nothing more than becoming infamously known. See what I mean?

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[ThinkHard]

I usually hate any documentaries on this case as we know they tend only snippits of a single theory with a short amount of time to cover 1000 of hours of case study in one of the most convoluted cases in history. Typically people with little research then offer opinions half cocked. I see a lot of post after the CBS documentary from some of the new sleuths whos first issue with the theory is " Why such and extensive, drawn out violent cover up for a 9 year old who committed and accidental death and why make the crime look worse?" I also have see a lot of post questioning the Murder 1 charge by the grand jury as it indicates pre-meditated murder. ( How could they ever prove premeditation right, much less against BR).

I'm sure some of the more experienced folks on here that picked up on subtle references to things that were omitted for legal reasons I'm assuming
realize that this documentary just laid out what the prosecutors approach was to be in the grand jury.

If you take the theory laid out in this documentry and add the McCann, Wecht, Spitz study of the autopsy report concluding sexual abuse both past and immediate I think it lines up perfectly with every charge brought to the grand jury as well as most conclusions from the ME report and it explains much of the elements believed by all sides to be staged.

The staging to me was never about covering up and accidental death from BR, it was about covering up ongoing sexual abuse.

The best way to do that would seem to stage it to look like a perv just sexually assaulted her.

Following this chain of events....BR strikes JBR with blunt object knocking her unconscious and eventually brain dead but heart still beating. ( cause of death 2 on ME report ). BR pokes JBR with train track to see if she is ok. JR or PR or both find body. JR realizes an ME will surely notice signs of sexual abuse and staging begins. JR or PR apply garrot finally killing JBR by asphyxiation due to strangulation. ( cause of death 1 on ME report ) The strangulation resulting in full death would be pre-meditated at this point.

I also believe from carefully reading the charges brought to the GJ and also reading the conclusions of Dr. McCann's group and many early observations of BR that prosecutors believed BR had been the one sexually assaulting JBR but believe it may have been with an object.

I also believe since murder 1 was on both PR and JR indictments that it could not be determined which applied the garrotte.

I'm not saying that this is the only path for this case but it seems to fit the path the prosecution presented to the grand jury.

When someone is in a car accident, do they always do a full autopsy report?

The reason I ask, is because you made me consider why your mind would automatically go there when you had just been confronted with the death of your child.....But what if JR's daughters autopsy had revealed she had been sexual assaulted? Can you even tell that in an adult women? I'm not sure....anyone?

Just thinking if the police had come to him, and said her autopsy found....xyz, or perhaps she kept a suicude note with allegation listed directly or indirectly? Hmmmm, I need to check more on the circumstances behind her death....

I'm just thinking if that had happened to you, it would make a lot of sense why your head would automatically jump to ME report and what it could reveal.

 

[ThinkHard]

Well I think I have explained, and I don't think what I wrote was difficult to follow. Maybe you just have a different idea and it doesn't fit with what I suggested? I wasn't trying to make a point.

I'm not trying to be snarky at all. I am genuinely trying to understand your point. And I am so sorry but I 100% have no idea what you are trying to imply, I'm not trying to be rude or fresh. I was being sincere when I was trying to gain clarity on your point of view.

 

[ukrberserker23]

I still feel that the hand restraints were made as slip knots because he hung her up by her hands. In order to jab her vagina with the stick. If she were still conscious and lying on the floor, she could have moved away from him. It was stated she had a bruise on the inside of her thigh. Probably from BR holding her leg while he jabbed her. I think she screamed, and passed out after that. Then he took her down, and later poked her with the railroad track. The garotte may have been to wrap around an artificial tree to hold its branches against the trunk. My dad rigged up something like this for his artificial tree. It has folding branches. Guess I forgot a step. He bashed her in the head with flashlight after she screamed. Not sure if he garotte her, or someone else.

 

[CoreyRocks]

JR was a successful businessman, if he was the mastermind, that ransom letter wouldn't have sounded nearly as childish or ridiculous. And their would have been far fewer mistakes and slip ups and contradictions in the staging.

No I think JR was late to the party, not the brains behind the operation. He may have his own devious reasons he wanted to protect for going along with it, but in my opinion no way no how was he the mastermind.

If he wanted to make it look like PR HE did it perfectly imho.

 

[ukrberserker23]

Most here have agreed that BR was molested before he did this to his sister. Big question is who molested BR to start this whole chain of events?

 

[PositiveLight]

I still feel that the hand restraints were made as slip knots because he hung her up by her hands. In order to jab her vagina with the stick. If she were still conscious and lying on the floor, she could have moved away from him. It was stated she had a bruise on the inside of her thigh. Probably from BR holding her leg while he jabbed her. I think she screamed, and passed out after that. Then he took her down, and later poked her with the railroad track. The garotte may have been to wrap around an artificial tree to hold its branches against the trunk. My dad rigged up something like this for his artificial tree. It has folding branches. Guess I forgot a step. He bashed her in the head with flashlight after she screamed. Not sure if he garotte her, or someone else.

Well the only thing that leads me to believe she wasn't actually tied by her wrists to any object, at least while conscious is there was no abrasions to the wrist. I believe the cord to her wrists was applied during the staging.
I do have a question. Is it possible that she somehow had the ligature to the neck applied by BR during rough play, like cowboy and Indians for example and was initially meant to just "keep her tied up" or even acting as if JonBenet was a puppy and 'tied' her to an object to "make her be a good doggie" and somehow, JonBenet pulled on the ligature and tightened it to the point she was choking? (I'm seriously trying to give the benefit of doubt to BR although very hard) Then BR and JonBenet both dug at the cord leaving the possible fingernail marks around the ligature? Out of panic he hit her over the head with the flashlight to make her stop screaming? When she did stop screaming, he thought she was dead because she wasn't responding to prodding with the train track. But what he didn't realise is she was only brain dead and laid there until the ligature finished strangling her or he finished her off. Then told his parents? I'm not even close to being a Ramsey supporter. Far from it. But for the sake of theories, could this be a possible scenerio? Could this line up with timeline?
Personally I think it was all intentional by him but, I want to see and hear all the possibilities out there.

Eta: maybe this could be the reason the knife was found near her. Maybe he tried to cut it off of her.
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[PositiveLight]

I can give an example of something that happened to my son. It was a complete accident but he could have easily died had my grandfather not been near him with a pocket knife. He was about 6-7 yrs old and loved yo-yos. He had learned all kinds of tricks with his. One day out of the blue, the yo yo ricochetted off this wall and wrapped around his neck so fast he panicked and started yanking on the string. By yanking he was only tightening it. All of us were there watching him do his new tricks and all were trying to get it off. My papa knocked us all away and calmly cut it with his pocket knife. Had he not been calm and had his knife, I don't even want to think what the outcome would have been. It happened in seconds and all of the family probably 10 adults was right there when it happened. Yet none of us could calm my son down or calm ourselves down. Only my grandfather. My son wasn't allowed to play with his yo yos ever again. When he went to college he started with them again and I cannot stand it. I can't for the life of me watch. It makes me panic and hyperventilate. So I know accidents can happen. However.... this was covered up. There was staging. Had it just been an accident, there would have been no reason to cover up.

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[ThinkHard]

Most here have agreed that BR was molested before he did this to his sister. Big question is who molested BR to start this whole chain of events?

The most likely suspects are always the people who had acces to time alone with Burke. The "usual suspects" in no particular order would be; teachers, coaches, clergy, anyone who worked in the home regularly, immediate family, extended family, family friends.

In this case, ultimately either his father, or an extended family member would be my guess. It's possible JAR did it to him also, but in that case, someone would have done it to JAR or unless JaR had age innapropriate issues in that regard, but to my knowledge we have heard no such thing. If JAR did know that Butke was ill and/or bring molestated....his forgiveness statement would make a lot of sense. Perhaps he understood what drove Burke more then anyone.

I wonder if when Burke started acting out, they would punish him, and keep JBR closet. Dotting on her, giving her more attention, all in an attempt to make up for the abuse she suffered at the hands of her brother. Much like parents often over compensate to keep their children happy during a divorce.

The problem was Burke was likely acting out for attention in large part. He saw the attention once focused only on him, get taken away and directed at JBR. He acts out, because he lacks strong expressive language skills. But when he does it back fires, and JBR just gets more attention....he doesn't get why, and gets more frustrated, and he still can't expressive so he acts out. I think the animosity was building for a while, and I think the parents efforts to "comfort" JBR after such incidents may have added to his increased rage.

In his head he might have truly thought he could just get rid of her, and it would all get back to normal.

 

[ThinkHard]

Hmmm also just thinking....it's potentially possible that his abuse began around the time of her birth....and he somehow blamed her for that as well. Maybe in his head everything was safe and perfect and fine until JBR came into the world.....then he began being abused, his mother got cancer and went away, he moved, he didn't get as much attention. To him it could have seemed like JBR was the cause of everything going bad....and at his level of maturity (not intelligence), believed the solution to making life good again was getting rid of JBR.

I definetly think he was ill, but I think this case was almost the perfect storm of illness and circumstance.....perhaps if any number of things had been different, Burke would still be odd but not angry. And JBR would be alive.

 

[UKGuy]

The most likely suspects are always the people who had acces to time alone with Burke. The "usual suspects" in no particular order would be; teachers, coaches, clergy, anyone who worked in the home regularly, immediate family, extended family, family friends.

In this case, ultimately either his father, or an extended family member would be my guess. It's possible JAR did it to him also, but in that case, someone would have done it to JAR or unless JaR had age innapropriate issues in that regard, but to my knowledge we have heard no such thing. If JAR did know that Butke was ill and/or bring molestated....his forgiveness statement would make a lot of sense. Perhaps he understood what drove Burke more then anyone.

I wonder if when Burke started acting out, they would punish him, and keep JBR closet. Dotting on her, giving her more attention, all in an attempt to make up for the abuse she suffered at the hands of her brother. Much like parents often over compensate to keep their children happy during a divorce.

The problem was Burke was likely acting out for attention in large part. He saw the attention once focused only on him, get taken away and directed at JBR. He acts out, because he lacks strong expressive language skills. But when he does it back fires, and JBR just gets more attention....he doesn't get why, and gets more frustrated, and he still can't expressive so he acts out. I think the animosity was building for a while, and I think the parents efforts to "comfort" JBR after such incidents may have added to his increased rage.

In his head he might have truly thought he could just get rid of her, and it would all get back to normal.

ThinkHard,
An alternative to someone assaulting BR is two things: peer group pressure, i.e. other older boys, and an attachment disorder brought on by PR simply neglecting him, in favor of JonBenet.

With JR away at work and PR concentrating on JonBenet, BR was left to his own devices, I'll just mention sleepovers and leave it at that.

.

 

[PositiveLight]

Most here have agreed that BR was molested before he did this to his sister. Big question is who molested BR to start this whole chain of events?

Good question. I used to think JR didn't have the time to groom him enough. I did read somewhere that Patsy's dad used to babysit them. If it's true he possibly abused Patsy's sister's, then I could see the cycle continuing. JMOO

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[RL2]

Good question. I used to think JR didn't have the time to groom him enough. I did read somewhere that Patsy's dad used to babysit them. If it's true he possibly abused Patsy's sister's, then I could see the cycle continuing. JMOO

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I thought the same thing about PR's father when I read that he spent a lot of time in Boulder and that he was a primary babysitter...