The Case of JonBenet Ramsey-CBS Sept. 18 # 2

[FinallyRegistered]

OH, OK. I'm fine with that. Did not know that. I seriously wish the owner would also ban theories on prepubescent bondage, and excrement. Makes this thread very hard to read. There is no evidence tying in either directly, other than fantasy. Yuck.

Different cord? God, its hard to keep up. I'm looking at what I read again about the fibers, and it is from a Judge Carnes in a libel case.

PS I had no idea if there is some background politics here.

I was reading that case today, too, and I'm glad you brought it up because it was the first time that I saw the cord information that you were discussing earlier in the thread. I can't tell if it is bad information from someone's book or if the court/attorneys are misstating the facts and evidence of the case.

Here's the link for those interested - the facts and theories are wonky, so be warned:
http://www.leagle.com/decision/20031576253FSupp2d1323_11466/WOLF v. RAMSEY

 

[Brendon]

The excrement is well documented. 2 house keepers witnessed it. Plus it was found smeared in JBR bedroom on her chocolate box.

No official investigation has counted it as direct or useful circumstantial evidence regarding the killing afaik. It is just sick fantasy. jmo

 

[HarmonyE.]

No official investigation has counted it as direct or useful circumstantial evidence regarding the killing afaik. It is just sick fantasy. jmo

Whose sick fantasy do you reckon this is? There is more than one "feces" source. The housekeeper's report of issues with it in the bed and on the walls and independently the cops noting the chocolate box.

Pick one, please.

1) Both sources are sick and making it up! Just a coincidence that its the same weird thing.
2) One is lying, the other telling the truth. Just a coincidence that its the same weird thing. But the one who is lying is sick and making it up!
3) Both sources are telling the truth, but that's totally normal behavior for kids that age. Stop making something of it!

 

[Brendon]

Whose sick fantasy do you reckon this is? There is more than one "feces" source. The housekeeper's report of issues with it in the bed and on the walls and independently the cops noting the chocolate box.

Pick one, please.

1) Both sources are sick and making it up! Just a coincidence that its the same weird thing.
2) One is lying, the other telling the truth. Just a coincidence that its the same weird thing. But the one who is lying is sick and making it up!
3) Both sources are telling the truth, but that's totally normal behavior for kids that age. Stop making something of it!

or

4)Not disputing it. Still no connection to the killing. Still a sick fantasy imo.

 

[Frigga]

or

4)Not disputing it. Still no connection to the killing. Still a sick fantasy imo.

How exactly would you know there was no connection to the killing? It's sick alright but I wouldn't link it to anyone's idea of a fantasy. Are you saying these people lied- including Kolar?

 

[Sparko96]

or

4)Not disputing it. Still no connection to the killing. Still a sick fantasy imo.

Psychological patterns of abusive, dominating behavior are uncomfortable to you because you have an agenda here. And it is not free discourse.


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[HarmonyE.]

or

4)Not disputing it. Still no connection to the killing. Still a sick fantasy imo.

Again, whose sick fantasy exactly?

 

[Brendon]

How exactly would you know there was no connection to the killing? It's sick alright but I wouldn't link it to anyone's idea of a fantasy. Are you saying these people lied- including Kolar?

Do you know of any link?

 

[Brendon]

Again, whose sick fantasy exactly?

I'm saying it is a sick fantasy if it is just plucked out of the air, as it were, with no basis for evidence to the killing.

How do you have a problem with that? Please explain.

And please, I don't need multiple posters ganging up on me. That is bullying.

 

[BBB167893]

Or the was Patsy that desperate for the limelight part?

That's the one I meant.

See I don't think she would kill her daughter to get in the limelight, I see her as being crazy, just not THAT crazy.

Agreed. I know it's been out there, but I don't buy it.

But I do see her getting a high off finding herself in the limelight and getting hooked on that and playing that role once she found herself there. But plotting the crime for the limelight, I just don't see it.

Agreed, again.

 

[HarmonyE.]

I'm saying it is a sick fantasy if it is just plucked out of the air, as it were, with no basis for evidence to the killing.

How do you have a problem with that? Please explain.

And please, I don't need multiple posters ganging up on me. That is bullying.

No, it's not bullying. It's a message board.

Again, this came from different sources. It was not plucked out of thin air, as it were. Many people out here believe Burke was the murderer and that if he was smearing feces over bathroom walls and his sister's candy, this is evidence that he was a sick boy.

James Kolar worked for the DA's office and had access to all of the available investigative reports.

I reviewed an investigator’s report that documented a 1997 interview with former Ramsey nanny – housekeeper Geraldine Vodicka, who stated that Burke had smeared feces on the walls of a bathroom during his mother’s first bout with cancer. She told investigators that Nedra Paugh, who was visiting the Ramsey home at the time, had directed her to clean up the mess.

There were other police reports in the files that documented what I thought could be viewed as related behavior. CSIs had written about finding a pair of pajama bottoms in JonBenét’s bedroom that contained fecal material. They were too big for her and were thought to belong to Burke.

Additionally, a box of candy located in her bedroom had also been observed to be smeared with feces. Both of these discoveries had been made during the processing of the crime scene during the execution of search warrants following the discovery of JonBenét’s body.

 

[Hatfield]

One of the most chilling things he said in that interview, with the psychiatrist, 13 days after his sister had been murdered..."I know what happened!" he said....And said he was "going on with my life." That interview would have had the hair standing up on my head if I were the psych.

Absolutely.

The one that got me was something like "i know what happened". Its not just the words but the way in which he said it and how he said it. I about fell out of my chair. The sheer confidence in how he said it and the timing of how that came out of him was very important.

And like others have mentioned the other one put the icing on the cake for me.
"going on with my life". So here is a boy with barely single digits in years of his life and he is ready to move on with this life. What profound event in his young life would make him say that? Something like a murder of a sister sure would.

It reminded me so much of the Little Rascals when Alfafa goes....

"I'm sorry Spanky, I have to live my own life""

 

[spitsthetruth]

The CBS documentary laid out the bones of the Grand Jury path for indictment and so many people missed it. The story was in the subtle suggestions of Lee and Spitz. No they were not going to come out and make sexual abuse accusations against anyone on National TV but if you know your stuff, you sure no what was implied by cover up. The subtle documentary even gave away the one piece of evidence that may have stopped JR and PR from being prosecuted.

I am reading post saying " why all the elaborate staging for an accidental killing " or " Murder 1, how were they ever gonna prove that and BR cant be charged anyways ".

You missed the point.....this was never about covering up an accidental death, it was about covering up long term sexual and physical abuse.

The Murder 1 charges were not for BR.....they were levied at JR and PR.

Watch the documentry again, become familiar with the work of Lee and Spits from the beginning of this case, get a copy of the ME report and a copy of the McCann, Wecht, Spitz ect....findings on the sexual abuse and a minimal amount of research on Colorado law and you will see the bulk of the case presented to the grand jury. The subtle things that were not said for legal reasons are the most important. Note things like what the pineapple represents....It makes BR the last known person to see JBR alive. Note Henry Lee's reference to the condition of the pineapple in the small intestine....it establishes time of death.

If you follow the path laid out in the show...and apply the listed material you will fill in every charge listed on the Grand Jury charges. You will have both causes of death listed in the autopsy, and you will see the one piece of evidence Henry needed for this case to be prosecuted.

Here is the sequence...JBR last known alive with BR at breakfast bar between 10:45 and 11:20...BR hits JBR in head with blunt object causing unconsciousness ( brain dead but hearth still beating )(Knowingly placing a child in an abusive situation leading to death). JR and PR find body and staging begins as JR knows ME is sure gonna notice signs of sexual abuse. What better way to cover-up sexual abuse then to try and stage it happened from and intruder. JR or PR apply garrote killing JBR and now we have death by asphyxiation and also pre-meditated( murder 1). sexual abuse is staged with paintbrush causing small particles to be found in JBR vagina. ( see McCann report on acute vs. chronic sexual abuse found ).

Seasoned vets on here can apply what they know about each item used in the cover up and almost tell who staged what. IE...Duct tape....PR fibers. Panties....JR fibers. This case wasn't prosecuted for many political reasons. However, if you note that both JR and PR are charged with Murder 1 you understand that there is yet to be a determination which one applied the garrote and this is prolly the excuse to not prosecuting them as murder is a specific charge. cant just go into court and say " one of them did it". This is why Henry refers to testing the knot in the garrote 4 times in the show as the " most important piece of evidence" you find which ones DNA in the knot, you have your killer.

also note the charges seem to reflect that BR was the one who was abusing JBR and JR and PR had knowledge of this.

The references to the golf club incident and the smearing of the fecal matter were mentioned in the show as subtle demonstrations of BR mental state and reflect history of abusing JBR.

 

[PositiveLight]

Do you know of any link?

http://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/re...o/news-story/069f26ece61772eacb0ef8caa22c76d2

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...d-older-brother-Burke-smeared-feces-wall.html

 

[dizzychick]

Let's learn together. Microscopic examination from the autopsy:

focal interstitial chronic inflammation - vaginal mucosa
interstitial chronic inflammation infiltrate - thyroid
mild chronic inflammation - trachea

vascular congestion - vaginal mucosa, lungs, thymus; and perhaps kidney (mild, only in cortex with no inflammation)

I think that many believe that the changes in the vaginal mucosa were evident on gross examination, but they were not - they were noted under microscopic examination.

What do all of those body parts have in common? It isn't "chronic sexual abuse" but rather remnants of the injuries immediately preceding death (vaginal mucosa) and the death by strangulation itself (thyroid, trachea, lungs, thymus) leading to vascular congestion and inflammation. JMO

her neck injuries that Smit said was half moon shaped nail marks IMO is Petechiae hemmorage from being strangled nothing more...

 

[Brendon]

No, it's not bullying. It's a message board.

Again, this came from different sources. It was not plucked out of thin air, as it were. Many people out here believe Burke was the murderer and that if he was smearing feces over bathroom walls and his sister's candy, this is evidence that he was a sick boy.

James Kolar worked for the DA's office and had access to all of the available investigative reports.

I'm not a child psychartrist, but it is fairly odd behaviour to me. .........Oh, just checked. fecal smearing can occur if the child has some autism. Aspergers is very related to autism. Like a high functioning version. And I'm a layman expert on that. And if BR isn't an aspy, I'll eat my hat. They come in all shapes and sizes. But I'm pretty sure he is on the spectrum. Plays video games. Works at computers. Socially awkward. And if you look at his movements during the interviews, physically awkward. They sprout walk. Can't read people. Ask me anything. Never heard of fecal smearing though. He would be happy to be left alone.

That woman on that special, when I saw her light up and try to explain what and why, when she was looking at the BR interview, I could not believe how ignorant she was. I could pick his every move. Why he did what he did, and his jerky physical movements, and the way he arranged his body. But then again, I've had years and years experience. And I knew exactly why he was looking intently at the bowl. And I know why he smiles, even though it is at what others judge at inappropriate times. I know why his parents were so protective of him.

Poor Burke.

 

[Tortoise]

Does anyone know who was looking after Burke and Fleet Junior at the White's house that day, 26th Dec?

 

[Tortoise]

I'm saying it is a sick fantasy if it is just plucked out of the air, as it were, with no basis for evidence to the killing.

How do you have a problem with that? Please explain.

And please, I don't need multiple posters ganging up on me. That is bullying.

The way I see it, everything in the house is circumstantial evidence. With a family denying responsibility events have to be pieced together, using logic, by what was in the house. If Burke was placing faeces in JonBenet's bedroom then it speaks of his relationship with JonBenet. If being the operative word.

 

[Tortoise]

Absolutely.

The one that got me was something like "i know what happened". Its not just the words but the way in which he said it and how he said it. I about fell out of my chair. The sheer confidence in how he said it and the timing of how that came out of him was very important.

And like others have mentioned the other one put the icing on the cake for me.
"going on with my life". So here is a boy with barely single digits in years of his life and he is ready to move on with this life. What profound event in his young life would make him say that? Something like a murder of a sister sure would.

It reminded me so much of the Little Rascals when Alfafa goes....

"I'm sorry Spanky, I have to live my own life""

And yet he said the killer took a knife and demonstrated plunging it into his sister.

That doesn't add up.

I think he was referring to knowing his sister had been taken from her bedroom to the basement and killed, and that is explained by him being told that's where his sister's body was found. He never mentioned strangulation and he mimicked a stabbing. I'm not buying his reaction as an indicator that he did it. The head blow possibly, but then again, why say it was a hammer?

 

[ThinkHard]

No official investigation has counted it as direct or useful circumstantial evidence regarding the killing afaik. It is just sick fantasy. jmo

It's distinguishing that you would apply the word "fantasy" and "bondage" to a serious discussion about very serious childhood mental and emotional issue. Whether you like it or not these types of problems in childhood do exist and they are very serious. They have nothing to do with bondage or fantasy. A child simply doesn't think like that, even when they do act out is a sexually aggressive manner. Which sadly given what we have heard, and seen, could have been something Burke and his family were struggling to deal with and even understand at a time when research in thus field was in it infancy.

So respectfully please do not pooh pooh on a serious conversation about a real and serious topic, by making it something twisted and dirty, when it is something that is serious and sad.