The Case of JonBenet Ramsey-CBS Sept. 18 # 2

[angelainwi]

Tonight - on TLC - JonBenet: An American Murder Mystery.

Asking again is this a new program or is this a repeat of the previous Investigation Discovery program by the same name? I have tried to search online and have not found a definitive answer.

 

[reintarnation]

There are photos in Kolar's book - the marks from the train track match up perfectly with the marks on JBR's back. It's easy to imagine a scenario where the head blow has taken place, JBR has collapsed to the floor, BR tries to rouse her unsuccessfully, and grabs the nearest object he can think of to poke her with, to see if she's faking it. Or, he actually enjoyed digging the points into his unconscious sister. We may never know the answer to that question.

One sticking point for me is that the train tracks had three prongs, and for this to work it would mean the middle prong had snapped off. Kolar mentions this in his book, stating that someone else told him those snap off "all the time." Possible, but did they find tracks like that in the house? Did they even look? Could be something that is still part of the confidential case file, and it's not enough to dissuade me from believing the train tracks did indeed cause those marks. I'm open to other theories, but that is the best one so far, IMO.

 

[reintarnation]

I've been wondering (quite a bit!) about the two hours which were edited out of the CBS series.

If you're looking for a deeper dive from the CBS special, especially in lieu of those two hours they scrapped, the Real Crime Profile podcast has done two roughly hour-long episodes about it with Jim and Laura, and there are more episodes to come.

https://soundcloud.com/real-crime-profile

 

[No it's not]

Hold the phone....THIS was in the CBS doc? Damn me for going to the bathroom and not pausing it. Gonna have to watch it again.

For anyone here who has not watched it and cant access it on any channels, it is now on Amazon Prime but you do have to pay $6.99 to view it. I'm gonna have to watch it again even though IMO it left much to be desired. I don't like missing things like that. My main hope was a lot of never before seen pics of the crime scene and cant believe I missed one.

The CBDS doc has extra footage after the official ending, the disclosure screen. The bathroom pics and some other captures are shown.

-Nin

 

[singularity]

Its honestly kind of funny to have all these freshman IDI's showing up. Little do they know many of us have been bickering for literally years! :slapfight: lol .

Its more frustrating than funny.... THis site has always had some really intelligent people discussing all aspects of the case. People like otg, UK, dave, deedee, BOESP, boldbear,madeleine, reintarnation,andhence, frankie, list goes on.... Even though I disagree with some of them for a variety of reasons, you always knew you'd either learn something or get some info you hadn't seen, had forgot, or gain a new perspective on something. Now we've got people claiming no evidence for Ramsey involvement has EVER been posted and others posting the same few things over and over mentioned in these documentaries. Some of it is bordering on trolling and the posts that aren't trolling are just extremely repetitive. This section is so active now its almost impossible to dig through the chaff to find the wheat. I still haven't seen many posters whose thoughts I like reading discussing the latest news. I may have to start clicking certain members profiles and digging through their posts that way. I'm hoping it dies down soon and goes back to normal. If not, I may start wearing out my ignore users button. No offense meant to ALL the new people posting in this section.

I could keep going, but honestly doing all the work for someone who probably won't listen anyways isn't how I feel like spending my time. .

Smart move. If you posted some long, well thought out post and even backed it up with links/sources, five minutes later they'd say the same thing they had just said to cause you to post. I call it the "running in circles" tactic and once I pick up on who does it, I simply ignore their posts.




reintarnation....

"One sticking point for me is that the train tracks had three prongs, and for this to work it would mean the middle prong had snapped off."


This fact cannot be pointed out enough. Its something MANY people forget when saying the tracks are a "perfect match".

 

[CherCher]

I have asked for actual evidence that ties any of the family to the murder. Not one answer. Because there is none. So I'm hardly grasping at straws looking at other angles, am I?

You do it: put forward actual real evidence tying in one of the family into JB's killing. Strong evidence, as you say.

Besides the RN in Patsy's disguised handwriting, the testimony of the 911 operator (even if you choose to disregard the enhanced 911 call), the pineapple eaten very shortly before JB's death, besides the fact that fibers from PR's Christmas Day sweater were found in a very strange place (look it up) , AND the R's would not submit to an official interview with the BPD until their demands were met, which included having access to all police reports, and a list of what the line of questioning would be. (which was granted).
Too much other evidence to mention.And how a person of interest acts after a crime has been committed can be circumstantial evidence. The dna? Don't get me started on that. The dna in this case is a joke.
Try drawing a theory on those facts.

 

[TeaTime]

One sticking point for me is that the train tracks had three prongs, and for this to work it would mean the middle prong had snapped off. Kolar mentions this in his book, stating that someone else told him those snap off "all the time." Possible, but did they find tracks like that in the house? Did they even look? Could be something that is still part of the confidential case file, and it's not enough to dissuade me from believing the train tracks did indeed cause those marks. I'm open to other theories, but that is the best one so far, IMO.

Usually it is three prongs on one end and two on the other.

 

[ElleElle]

ElleElle,
Because, IMO, BR fetched the bowl from the fridge and used the spoon to ladle out JonBenet a serving. Bear in mind the condensed milk would probably have been in the fridge or some cupboard, and it would need opened also, unless the serving bowl was already prepared, thus explaining PR fingerprints on it?

.

Ok, you're confusing me.

This is what you posted: "Kolars story about JonBenet taking some of BR's pineapple doesn't any sense."

The only way she could of taken the pineapple is by picking it out of the bowl, and not touching the bowl. That places BR with his fingers on the bowl, so perhaps he did prepare it for her or maybe it's all lies and he is the one who likes pineapple.

 

[ElleElle]

I can't see it happening that way. One blow to the head is not enough to guarantee putting anyone out of their misery.

On the other hand, I could see JBR still being alive after a blow to the head, but unconscious and appearing to be dead. She was then strangled with force (because who is going to stage a strangling on a person they think is already dead and NOT do it with force.....it wouldn't look real.) I don't think those are fingernail marks on her neck, either. Weren't her hands "tied behind her back?" (please correct me if I'm wrong)

If the strangulation came first, and if her hands were actually tied, she couldn't have scratched at her neck. If the blow to the head came first, I think the strangulation was just an attempt at staging, but actually did contribute to her death because she was still alive.

Does a body continue to digest food even when brain dead?

BBM ~ Wasn't she wearing a gold chain, which could of caused the appearance of fingernails gripping, as it was with the cord?

 

[Tortoise]

One sticking point for me is that the train tracks had three prongs, and for this to work it would mean the middle prong had snapped off. Kolar mentions this in his book, stating that someone else told him those snap off "all the time." Possible, but did they find tracks like that in the house? Did they even look? Could be something that is still part of the confidential case file, and it's not enough to dissuade me from believing the train tracks did indeed cause those marks. I'm open to other theories, but that is the best one so far, IMO.

OTOH if a piece of track did have its middle prong broken it would be more likely to be discarded on the floor, not being used, and therefore more likely to be grabbed than a piece connected up to the set would.

 

[reintarnation]

BBM ~ Wasn't she wearing a gold chain, which could of caused the appearance of fingernails gripping, as it was with the cord?

The autopsy report lists those marks on her neck as petechial hemorrhages that occur when strangulation results in death. They are not fingernail scratches or any other type of abrasion.

But yes, she was wearing a chain necklace with a cross. It was found hanging loosely on her neck and not caught up in the cord that was still embedded in her neck.

 

[johnjay]

One sticking point for me is that the train tracks had three prongs, and for this to work it would mean the middle prong had snapped off. Kolar mentions this in his book, stating that someone else told him those snap off "all the time." Possible, but did they find tracks like that in the house? Did they even look? Could be something that is still part of the confidential case file, and it's not enough to dissuade me from believing the train tracks did indeed cause those marks. I'm open to other theories, but that is the best one so far, IMO.

They don't have to "snap off", just fall off. A quick look at track on EBAY shows plenty with missing pins/prongs. Perhaps more telling is there are a lot of people selling bags of just pins.

 

[ElleElle]

Asking again is this a new program or is this a repeat of the previous Investigation Discovery program by the same name? I have tried to search online and have not found a definitive answer.

I am not sure because I never saw the one on ID as it was never aired on the Canadian ID.

But, from googling yes, it seems to be the same one.

 

[UKGuy]

Ok, you're confusing me.

This is what you posted: "Kolars story about JonBenet taking some of BR's pineapple doesn't any sense."

The only way she could of taken the pineapple is by picking it out of the bowl, and not touching the bowl. That places BR with his fingers on the bowl, so perhaps he did prepare it for her or maybe it's all lies and he is the one who likes pineapple.

ElleElle,
No. Just consider an alternative scenario where Burke fetched the pineapple serving bowl for JonBenet, and served them both pineapple or only JonBenet, thus Burke's fingerprint lands on the bowl. JonBenet was too small to reach into the freezer and fetch the pineapple. Burke would not need the serving bowl out just for himself.

It doesn't make any sense because there is a bowl of pineapple on the table, its not rationed. Its a Just So story from Kolar.

.

 

[UKGuy]

Asking again is this a new program or is this a repeat of the previous Investigation Discovery program by the same name? I have tried to search online and have not found a definitive answer.

angelainwi,
It will be the same one recently aired, apparently had high ratings. If you watched the previous one where part three was : He Calls Himself Daxis, then they will be a repeat.

.

 

[Tortoise]

Autopsy report lists the cause of death as "asphyxia by strangulation associated with craniocerebral trauma." Since this conclusion references two injuries that would have proven fatal but does not place them in chronological order, this has been an area open to debate.

IMO, the wording suggests that the strangulation was the actual cause of death, and that is supported by the noted petechial hemorrhaging of the eyes and eye lids (classic indicator of death via strangulation). This is also supported by the internal bleeding of her brain into her skull (heart still pumping), and the amount of that bleeding has led experts to estimate that JBR died roughly 45 -120 minutes after the head blow (expert opinions on this timeframe vary greatly).

This alone does not provide a sequence of events. For example, JBR could have been in the process of being strangled when the head blow was inflicted. However, there are no scratch marks around the neck ligature indicating that she struggled. There are small marks that many have speculated to be fingernail scratches, but the autopsy report lists them as additional petechial hemorrhages, and they do not match with the longer scratch marks that one expects to see in such an event.

One could argue that JBR was restrained by the wrists or some other fashion and therefore was not able to struggle against the ligature as would be expected. However, the wrist bindings were noted to be loose enough for the ME to put his finger between the cord and JBR with no problem, and the ME was able to slip them off her wrists without untying them. The ligatures were also found over top of JBR's sleeves, and there were no ligature marks on her wrists. This means that she could not have been completely restrained by the wrist ligatures, and it reasonably follows that she was unconscious at the time of strangulation.

Still, even if she was unconscious when strangled, does that mean she had already suffered the blow to the head? In the opinion of many credible experts, yes. Per the autopsy report, JBR's blood ethanol and drug screens were negative, so she was not sedated. A stun gun jolt does not knock a person out, and it has been summarily proven that the abrasions on JBR's body were not caused by a stun gun. So barring the introduction of new evidence, there is at this point no forensic explanation for her to not struggle against the strangulation unless the head blow occurred first.

In the A&E documentary and others, Lou Smit claims that the head blow couldn't have come first because "the blow to the head would have been so massive, it's unlikely that she would have been able to struggle" and "that lack of bleeding from the head wound indicates she was near death from strangulation before she was hit." The head blow was massive, and it would have knocked her out cold, but it wasn't massive enough that it perforated her scalp. Smit's observation about head wound bleeding is speculative and does not match the autopsy findings - perhaps he is referring to external bleeding and ignoring the rest. We also have to keep in mind that use of a stun gun is critical to Smit's theory that the head blow was the death blow, and the stun gun argument has been scientifically disproved (the distance between the marks does not align with a stun gun, stun gun injuries create burns and not abrasions, stun gun marks on a conscious victim are not small and perfectly shaped due to the victim's body moving when the jolt is delivered, stun guns cause extreme physical pain and deliver electric energy to the body as opposed to causing the victim to become unconscious, and the manufacturer of the stun gun reported to be used has gone on record stating that there is no way the marks on JBR's body were caused by a stun gun).

None of this points one way or another as far as Intruder versus Ramseys, but it does do two important things:
(1) Makes it nearly impossible to scientifically support the idea that the head blow came last.
(2) Indicates that the wrist ligatures were staged as they served no functional purpose.

I thought I had read that JR loosened the knots on her wrists. One before lifting her from the basement and the other he attempted to do by the tree when Arndt stopped him.

This theory doesn't account for partial strangulation causing unconsciousness and petechiae but not killing her, before she sustained the head blow and bleeding on the brain. If experts aren't 100% on this I think it can't be altogether discounted.

 

[Charliegirl610]

I have been a lurker on this site for years. This is my first time posting on this subject. I suspected Burke long before his Dr. Phil interviews and the CBS documentary recently broadcast. I'm no professional, no investigative experience (aside from these boards) but what I do have is common sense. I cannot understand why so many people are resistant to believe that Burk could very well have done this. After watching his interview with Dr. Phil, I'd bet my life that he falls somewhere on the ASD spectrum. That smile may very well have been nervousness, but his inability to empathize and even pretend that he was affected by the death of his sister is very telling. I have years of experience working with children and adults on the spectrum. His mannerisms and behavior were classic. That said before I get beheaded, I'm not saying anyone on the spectrum is capable of murder. I do believe the feces smearing is another common sign that this boy was / is not typical. High functioning kids on the spectrum are extremely intelligent and often times conversing with them is equal to conversing with an adult. The interviews that were played from age 9 and 11 again confirm in my opinion that he is not a typical child. His "going on with life" was easy to him as he had a disconnect with his family from the beginning. At age 9 it is not hard to imagine that he felt "different" from other kids. His father was most likely gone alot with work and I imagine that Jonbenet was attached to Patsy's hip. I can imagine that they were always off together shopping, practicing dance, and other pageantry things. I suspect that Burke was very jealous of Jonbenet for the extra attention shown to his sister from his parents as well as her ability to be a likeable and easy going child. I doubt very much that Burke had or has had any close relationships in his life. I don't think he is able to form them. His arrogance is typical of a person on the spectrum. They can come off as the most self serving, know it alls. That said I can easily see both these children venturing downstairs after being put to bed to admire or grab a new toy that may have still been under the christmas tree. I can easily see Burke down there first, serving himself tea and pineapple. Jonbenet enters and also wants some pineapple. Perhaps Burke took a piece out of the bowl and handed it to her or maybe she did in fact "steal" it herself out of the bowl. Either way this little girl ingested pineapple that night after being put to bed. Maybe they ventured downstairs to play or peek at the wrapped gifts that were left down there. But I believe it is where Burke hits his sister in the head. I don't believe he intentionally meant to kill her or fatally injure her. They are kids, siblings don't think twice about clobbering the other. I believe it was enough to knock her out. I believe Burke wouldn't know she was seriously injured, or quite frankly I'm not sure he had the ability to "care" that she was hurt. I think he was very angry with her and believe that he had issues in handling his anger. If in fact those marks on her are train track marks, they were not gently nudging her to see if she responded. They look like they were forced into her. I'm on the fence of whether or not he created the garrot (sp?). I believe he was intelligent enough to know how to fashion it though. Kids on the spectrum have strange obsessions, trains being a common one. He could easily have been very versed in knot tying. What kinds of video games did he play? Were they of a violent nature? Perhaps it's something he learned in a video game, or hanging out with Dad, or scouts, if he was one. I do believe that at some point he alerts his mother or she happens upon them in her tasks of packing for the morning trip. I believe he was sent to his room and that his mother staged the rest. She may have been the one creating the garrot (sp?) and in her attempt to deflect any and all of the events from family members began an hours long attempt to cover up for her son and create a scene that would deflect outside of her family members. I imagine that she did in deed love her children. I believe her grief was real, she truly mourned for Jonbenet. But I believe that she was vain enough to pull off such a cover up to protect her son and her family from the consequences that could come if people knew they truly were not the perfect family. She would rather have committed this cover up crime than be shamed by the community. There is no way that I'll ever believe this woman would wear the same outfit two days in a row. Lets not forget that her vanity and arrogance caused her to lay out her pageant gown and crown on the bed for all of the Christmas tourists to view. It would devastate her if people knew Burke was not a typical child and smeared feces. That Jonbenet was a bed wetter. That one of her perfect children could have fatally hurt the other perfect child. How would that reflect on her? It happens often. Siblings kill one another, it also happens that parents would defend and lie for their children in an attempt to "protect" them and the family name. I believe it was 9 days after when Burke was questioned by the Child Psychiatrist that the Ramsey's demanded. Plenty of time to coach Burke on "his part" of that nights events. Too much points to the perpetrator to be a tenant of that house. I don't believe the parents did it, never did. I do believe they lied to protect the one living child left. moo

 

[Mrs G Norris]

Exactly. It's a very odd point to argue. Even if I had gotten 12 hours of sleep, if I woke up to my daughter being murdered, I'd be immediately emotionally exhausted.....it would be indistinguishable from me being up all night, I'm quite sure!

Has anyone ever reported that the Ramseys were wide awake and appeared well rested?? I doubt it.

Patsy was wearing the same clothes as from the night before wasn't she? My thinking is she never went to bed. 7 minutes between the 911 and police arriving is hardly long enough to get dressed, unless she was in her night garments when they arrived and changed once they were there?

 

[Mrs G Norris]

Is it true that the pineapple in her stomach was green? I always pictured it as canned.

If you have ever tried to cut up a fresh pineapple, it is a nightmare.

Was there cut up pineapple in the frig as a snack?

Brown / Green from digestion ..

Is milk and pineapple a thing? Never heard of such a combination!

 

[Mrs G Norris]

One sticking point for me is that the train tracks had three prongs, and for this to work it would mean the middle prong had snapped off. Kolar mentions this in his book, stating that someone else told him those snap off "all the time." Possible, but did they find tracks like that in the house? Did they even look? Could be something that is still part of the confidential case file, and it's not enough to dissuade me from believing the train tracks did indeed cause those marks. I'm open to other theories, but that is the best one so far, IMO.

You know what, I wasn't convinced by the train track idea either, and when they showed the wounds on the program the one to the right seemed to show signs of some healing so it didn't fit with their theory, I thought they could have been something else or an old injury.