The Case of JonBenet Ramsey-CBS Sept. 18 # 2

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ThinkHard said:
And the bottom curve of the supposed "heart" looks like it was drawn with such force that it actually scratch her skin.

If it's said that heart was drawn I'll assume investigators know this because it was tested or came off easily with soap and water...but just looking at that picture it really doesn't look like someone drew on her hand at all, it looks like and injury.
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This would have been noted in the autopsy if it was anything more than marker.
 
jslk said:
Do children drink tea in the States? Very uncommon here.

Sent from my SM-J500FN using Tapatalk
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As children my mother would give us sweetened tea when we had upset stomach's. I'm from a northern state in the US.
 
angelainwi the show being discussed in this thread is the CBS show The Case Of: JonBenet Ramsey.The show aired in 2 parts - part 1 Sunday 9/18 and part 2 on Monday 9/19 It can be watched at CBS.com It is not the Investigation Discovery show. Some new information at least to me - more videos of Burke and psychologist. New to this and I apologize for lack of icon etc.
 
WhoKnowsWhat said:
As children my mother would give us sweetened tea when we had upset stomach's. I'm from a northern state in the US.
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Sweet tea is a BIG deal in the south... Patsy was raised in WV, and Atlanta was their "home"
 
Mrs G Norris said:
Brown / Green from digestion ..

Is milk and pineapple a thing? Never heard of such a combination!
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Here in the south it's more "pineapples and cream" but I guess people do use milk which is odd because the pineapple curdles it so you essentially end up with cottage cheese. It's nasty.
 
Brendon said:
(snipped for focus)

So I've got to come up with evidence. But you don't. OK.

Please don't assume I haven't followed this case. I know there is no compelling evidence whatsoever directly tying them into the killing of JB. Only theory and storylines.

I get the feeling from your comments you might not like it when people who reach different views to you. jmo I don't feel it appropriate to tell someone to leave a forum just because of that.
One moment the Ramsey's behavior and how they act is paramount, the next it isn't.
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I can only assume that while you may have followed this case, you do not have not followed it as closely for 20 years as many here have which is why you do not understand the evidence that has been discussed, refuted, debunked, hash and rehashed ad infinitum. One thing I will help you with is the entry point or lack thereof.

You asked something about doors, "were there no doors. . .?" Of course, you know there were doors: doors that were locked, doors that had no evidence of being pried open; doors with locks that had not been 'jimmied", doors and locks with no unidentifiable fingerprints and no evidence of wiping away of evidence. Who, outside of the family had a key to any of these doors? LHP and the nanny who had not been employed by the family for about 2 years. LHP was thoroughly investigated as was her family, they cooperated fully, participated in interviews, voluntarily gave DNA and handwriting samples and were an open book with LE. NOTHING indicated that they had anything to do with this crime and they were cleared as suspects despite Patsy suggesting to LE that the handwriting looked like LHP's, that LHP asked to borrow money which Patsy agreed to leave out for her to pick up when she returned to the house for work and that Patsy would leave her purses on the spiral steps when she wanted LHP to clean them out for her as well as notes of instructions. IIRC the ex nanny had moved away, had a solid alibi and surrendered to LE the house key that she still had. She was cleared as a suspect. These are the only 2 people with keys identified by the Ramseys.

JR stated that he checked all the doors before he went to bed and they were locked. He checked them all again in the morning and they were still locked.

All keys accounted for, no evidence of forced entry through any door. These are hard facts and is the whole reason that Lou Smit decided that the basement window had to be the entry point. The basement window as the entry point for the mythological intruder has been a bone of contention for 19.5 years and was finally publicly debunked with visual aid thanks to the CBS special. You choose to ignore the spider web when the spider web is perhaps the most significant clue that the basement window entry theory is nonsense. Insects often offer clues in crimes and in this one an etymologist identified the particular spider that would have made that web and it just so happens that this spider does not spin webs in winter, therefore the web was there from a previous season. The crime scene photos show the web undisturbed. The CBS special showed us all that it would be impossible to slide through that window without damaging the web. The reasonable conclusion is that the basement window was NOT an entry point. The UNreasonable conclusion is that you need more evidence before making up your mind.

If the science behind the spider web evidence is not sufficient, then consider the photographed debris in the window well which was undisturbed. The CBS special made it patently clear that no one could maneuver through that window without disturbing the leaves, dirt and pine needles in the window well. Again the most reasonable conclusion is that the basement window was neither an entry nor an exit point.

So, we have intact doors, keys accounted for in the hands of people quickly cleared as potential suspects and the basement window scientific and common sense evidence to tell us that no intruder entered the home at any time. This leaves us with the people who lived in the home as suspects. It is a matter of deduction, once all other theories are debunked beyond a reasonable doubt, there is nothing left but to conclude that the killer is one of the three live people remaining in the home.

I have been up and functioning for over 48 hours without sleep on many occasions and none of them were fueled by adrenaline, fear, anxiety, stress or the 'kidnapping' murder of my child. Imposing what you think people should act like had they been awake for a long time onto this case to bolster your doubt that the family committed the crime is certainly not evidence even by your own standards. Add to this that you have no idea whether anyone on the premises that day thought PR or JR were sleepy, tired, or even well-rested and perhaps you can understand why some posters question your opinions as they seemed to be based on a very loose grasp of this case.

No one here means to insult you and we will point you in the right direction to gain knowledge but we will also point out flawed logic and ask that you do your due diligence to become informed on subject matter and details that have been well established here, on ACR, in books written on the subject and from documentaries about this case.
 
singularity said:
For anyone asking about the other doc and they haven't watched it, cant get the channel its on, etc. it is now on Amazon prime for streaming.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01LY4YH9A/ref=pd_cbs_318_5

The Case of is also on Amazon...

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01M1GGXUS/ref=pd_cbs_318_4

The A&E doc is also on there....

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01LOOIIJU/ref=pd_cbs_318_2

You have to pay $4.99-$6.99 to watch them through Amazon Prime.
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singularity,
They are also available as free downloads from various upload sites just enter the title into your favorite search engine along with the keyword download.

Might take while to download, but its free ...
 
Ambitioned said:
Here in the south it's more "pineapples and cream" but I guess people do use milk which is odd because the pineapple curdles it so you essentially end up with cottage cheese. It's nasty.
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In all of the previous books/material, it has been described as a bowl of pineapples and cream, something that Patsy must have brought along with her as a Southern tradition. I tried it out of curiosity and didn't care for it.
 
Heymom said:
There are photos in Kolar's book - the marks from the train track match up perfectly with the marks on JBR's back. It's easy to imagine a scenario where the head blow has taken place, JBR has collapsed to the floor, BR tries to rouse her unsuccessfully, and grabs the nearest object he can think of to poke her with, to see if she's faking it. Or, he actually enjoyed digging the points into his unconscious sister. We may never know the answer to that question.
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Correct me if this is inaccurate, but I thought per the CBS program Dr. Spitz's opinion was that the marks were post-mortem due to the lack of bleeding and other attributes of the wounds (the dual-wounds that have often been thought to be stun gun marks) and therefore inflicted in the time period of staging after the head blow and also the garotte. I thought the comparison to the train tracks was fairly convincing, but which RDI with the train tracks seems inconclusive to me.
 
Mrs G Norris said:
Patsy was wearing the same clothes as from the night before wasn't she? My thinking is she never went to bed. 7 minutes between the 911 and police arriving is hardly long enough to get dressed, unless she was in her night garments when they arrived and changed once they were there?
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It is well established that she was fully dresesed, hair done and make-up on when the first officers arrived.

I think while it may be proof that she never went to sleep that night, the fact that she put on clothes she wore the day before for about 5 hours does not necessarily raise any red flags for me. I live in the deep south and it would be nasty to try to wear the same sweaty, damp from humidity clothes 2 days in a row without laundering them. However I have spent quite a few fall seasons in the permafrost of northern Canada and wearing the same clothes 2 days in a row was not icky at all. The clothes did not get nasty from sweat or rumpled from humidity. It was the first time in my life that my clothes looked as fresh at the end of the day as at the beginning. Of course, tropical weather clothes are different from permafrost Canada clothes but I assume that Rocky Mountain winter clothes could be worn 2 days in a row or more without them looking bad or smelling.

I can 100% see myself jumping out of bed, pulling on last night's winter clothes, refreshing make up (maybe even over slept-in make up) and fluffing up last night's hair do in order to board my private plane to my vacation house. No one but family is going to see me. But for the private plane, I have done the exact same thing.

I don't think the clothes prove she was up all night even though she likely was. It just isn't something I would consider in making that conclusion. Rather I believe that once she discovered JBR's damaged body, she couldn't sleep if she wanted to. She may have laid on the bed, fully dressed until it was time to call LE.
 
johnjay said:
They don't have to "snap off", just fall off. A quick look at track on EBAY shows plenty with missing pins/prongs. Perhaps more telling is there are a lot of people selling bags of just pins.
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I thought the outer 2 prongs were for the electrical current and thus longer, the center prong being a shorter one just to hold the track down flat ( I have no idea - but what I thought they showed on CBS was a track piece with two longer outer prongs and short inner prong?) Question to anyone - are the points of those prongs really sharp enough to cause puncture wounds?
 
SandyQLS said:
Correct me if this is inaccurate, but I thought per the CBS program Dr. Spitz's opinion was that the marks were post-mortem due to the lack of bleeding and other attributes of the wounds (the dual-wounds that have often been thought to be stun gun marks) and therefore inflicted in the time period of staging after the head blow and also the garotte. I thought the comparison to the train tracks was fairly convincing, but which RDI with the train tracks seems inconclusive to me.
Click to expand...

SandyQLS,
I have speculated elsewhere that the marks might represent postmortem ritual behavior?

.
 
Brendon said:
There is no evidence there wasn't an intruder.
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There's a slang term 'troll'. It can be many different things, but it's basically to get a rise out of people. One of it's methods is to be presented facts and simply deny them. I don't know if Brendon is intentionally trolling, but I will point-out how many responses he's been getting. His reaction is to claim, "That's not evidence."

Seriously, "There's is no evidence there wasn't an intruder." This statement is actually a 'troll'. It's a logically flawed. It's in the realm of, "There's no evidence that the Easter Bunny doesn't exist." Brendon should be presenting evidence to support his claims. It shouldn't be the other way around.

Argue this if you like, but these types of claims don't deserve any serious consideration. Although, it is fun to see how much he can stir up the hornets nest.
 
TeaTime said:
It is well established that she was fully dresesed, hair done and make-up on when the first officers arrived.

I think while it may be proof that she never went to sleep that night, the fact that she put on clothes she wore the day before for about 5 hours does not necessarily raise any red flags for me. I live in the deep south and it would be nasty to try to wear the same sweaty, damp from humidity clothes 2 days in a row without laundering them. However I have spent quite a few fall seasons in the permafrost of northern Canada and wearing the same clothes 2 days in a row was not icky at all. The clothes did not get nasty from sweat or rumpled from humidity. It was the first time in my life that my clothes looked as fresh at the end of the day as at the beginning. Of course, tropical weather clothes are different from permafrost Canada clothes but I assume that Rocky Mountain winter clothes could be worn 2 days in a row or more without them looking bad or smelling.

I can 100% see myself jumping out of bed, pulling on last night's winter clothes, refreshing make up (maybe even over slept-in make up) and fluffing up last night's hair do in order to board my private plane to my vacation house. No one but family is going to see me. But for the private plane, I have done the exact same thing.

I don't think the clothes prove she was up all night even though she likely was. It just isn't something I would consider in making that conclusion. Rather I believe that once she discovered JBR's damaged body, she couldn't sleep if she wanted to. She may have laid on the bed, fully dressed until it was time to call LE.
Click to expand...

and, we cannot forget the crime scene photo where only ONE side of J&P's bed appeared to be slept in.....

I wonder if they ever asked John which side of the bed on which he slept?
 
This is my first post. Apologies in advance for its length. OK, here goes. I will try to keep it to: the pineapple, the flashlight, the connection between the two, and maybe a little bit about the train tracks. Listen carefully!

Pineapple: First off, BR said in one interview that he did like pineapple. Maybe not as much as JB, but he did say he liked it. So that could set the stage for a conflict over the pineapple. I think a lot of people get hung up on BR's age. How could a kid do something like this? And I also think some people are looking for some grand motive for JB's death, and to them the pineapple isn't suitably grand. But kids have arguments over the darndest things. I remember my sister used to count the number of ravioli I received and pitch a fit if she received fewer. But the reason I am convinced that something so normally insignificant as pineapple played a major role was all in BR's reaction to the pineapple photo. If I showed you a picture of a hat on a table and asked you, "What is that?", I'm sure you would also have a minor panic attack instead of saying, "It's a hat, you idiot!" Now you can almost explain away BR's first interview, as it was probably pure chaos for two straight weeks with no time to reflect. But 1.5 years later, when you've gone over that night in your head a million times, you know where it all started. And that is not to say that the pineapple was the be-all and end-all, for it had moved down JB's digestive tract. So I doubt it led to an immediate head blow. But it could have been Step 1, whether it had been the first annoying thing that JB did to BR, or whether it had been the thing that BR used to lure JB.

Flashlight: Unless they are both lying, which let's face it, is possible, both JR and BR admitted to using a flashlight that night. There is no evidence of a second flashlight. So why were there no prints on the flashlight and its batteries? I know I always put on driving gloves to install batteries, but I thought I was the only weirdo who did that. So it was cleaned because of its connection to the crime. Simple enough. It wasn't used either time JR went to search the house, which is maybe a little strange, but then again, why would you clean a murder weapon only to put your fingerprints on it? I believe it was left in the kitchen because the kitchen is not where the head blow occurred, which also fits with my theory that the head blow did not immediately occur after whatever happened with the pineapple. I think if you knew the flashlight was involved enough to clean it off, then why would you leave it right where the incident happened? You would move it. Also, as it relates to the pineapple, why would someone anal/freaked out enough to clean the batteries of a flashlight and then place it, in the kitchen area, not also dispose of or clean the bowl of pineapple, in the kitchen area, if that person knew its significance? Because that person didn't. BR freaked out about the pineapple in interviews, not PR or JR, because they didn't realize how important it was. That is why PR or JR did not clean or get rid of that bowl of pineapple. BDI, JR/PR cleaned up what they thought was important.

Train tracks: Briefly, when I saw the two marks on JB's body, they did not seem to be from a gentle poke. They seem to also indicate aggression, not unlike someone pooping all over your food. Aggressive! Now I could be mistaken, but one of those two marks seemed to be a little larger than the other. When the train track theory was presented I remember thinking to myself, "If BR used a curved piece of track the marks would appear different from one another. Different amount of force/different angle/different depth would seem to create such a difference between the marks." Maybe I'm overthinking that one.

Cheers, MO,
Bill
 
TeaTime said:
I can only assume that while you may have followed this case, you do not have not followed it as closely for 20 years as many here have which is why you do not understand the evidence that has been discussed, refuted, debunked, hash and rehashed ad infinitum. One thing I will help you with is the entry point or lack thereof.

You asked something about doors, "were there no doors. . .?" Of course, you know there were doors: doors that were locked, doors that had no evidence of being pried open; doors with locks that had not been 'jimmied", doors and locks with no unidentifiable fingerprints and no evidence of wiping away of evidence. Who, outside of the family had a key to any of these doors? LHP and the nanny who had not been employed by the family for about 2 years. LHP was thoroughly investigated as was her family, they cooperated fully, participated in interviews, voluntarily gave DNA and handwriting samples and were an open book with LE. NOTHING indicated that they had anything to do with this crime and they were cleared as suspects despite Patsy suggesting to LE that the handwriting looked like LHP's, that LHP asked to borrow money which Patsy agreed to leave out for her to pick up when she returned to the house for work and that Patsy would leave her purses on the spiral steps when she wanted LHP to clean them out for her as well as notes of instructions. IIRC the ex nanny had moved away, had a solid alibi and surrendered to LE the house key that she still had. She was cleared as a suspect. These are the only 2 people with keys identified by the Ramseys.

JR stated that he checked all the doors before he went to bed and they were locked. He checked them all again in the morning and they were still locked.

All keys accounted for, no evidence of forced entry through any door. These are hard facts and is the whole reason that Lou Smit decided that the basement window had to be the entry point. The basement window as the entry point for the mythological intruder has been a bone of contention for 19.5 years and was finally publicly debunked with visual aid thanks to the CBS special. You choose to ignore the spider web when the spider web is perhaps the most significant clue that the basement window entry theory is nonsense. Insects often offer clues in crimes and in this one an etymologist identified the particular spider that would have made that web and it just so happens that this spider does not spin webs in winter, therefore the web was there from a previous season. The crime scene photos show the web undisturbed. The CBS special showed us all that it would be impossible to slide through that window without damaging the web. The reasonable conclusion is that the basement window was NOT an entry point. The UNreasonable conclusion is that you need more evidence before making up your mind.

If the science behind the spider web evidence is not sufficient, then consider the photographed debris in the window well which was undisturbed. The CBS special made it patently clear that no one could maneuver through that window without disturbing the leaves, dirt and pine needles in the window well. Again the most reasonable conclusion is that the basement window was neither an entry nor an exit point.

So, we have intact doors, keys accounted for in the hands of people quickly cleared as potential suspects and the basement window scientific and common sense evidence to tell us that no intruder entered the home at any time. This leaves us with the people who lived in the home as suspects. It is a matter of deduction, once all other theories are debunked beyond a reasonable doubt, there is nothing left but to conclude that the killer is one of the three live people remaining in the home.

I have been up and functioning for over 48 hours without sleep on many occasions and none of them were fueled by adrenaline, fear, anxiety, stress or the 'kidnapping' murder of my child. Imposing what you think people should act like had they been awake for a long time onto this case to bolster your doubt that the family committed the crime is certainly not evidence even by your own standards. Add to this that you have no idea whether anyone on the premises that day thought PR or JR were sleepy, tired, or even well-rested and perhaps you can understand why some posters question your opinions as they seemed to be based on a very loose grasp of this case.

No one here means to insult you and we will point you in the right direction to gain knowledge but we will also point out flawed logic and ask that you do your due diligence to become informed on subject matter and details that have been well established here, on ACR, in books written on the subject and from documentaries about this case.
Click to expand...

Once again, you are stating some things as fact and that is where I have a problem. For one, how on earth do you know about the Ramsey house keys?
 
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