The complicity of Patsy in coverup.

[twinkiesmom]

Let_Forever_Be,
You are welcome to Mr Wecht's analysis, please do not promote it as fact.


Can you offer a citation here, possibly the autopsy?


This is simply conjecture on Cyril Wecht's part, there is no supporting evidence. The autopsy cites hypoxia as the cause of death.

.

Hypoxia means she was deprived of oxygen. The heart pumps oxygen-rich blood to the rest of the body. If the vagus nerve was pinched such that her heart slowed to a lower heart rate (almost to a stop), her tissues would have suffered hypoxia without her necessarily having being strangled.

 

[twinkiesmom]

You might get some argument on that, LFB. Mostly from me. The autopsy report lists no less than three separate areas of bleeding, one of which was about the size of a chair doily.

Drs Werner Spitz, Henry Lee, Tom Henry and Ronald Wright have described the head wound as "fully developed" with "large blood clots," estimating anywhere from 20 to 60 minutes between being hit and finally strangled.

But for the sake of argument, let's say you're right. Kerry Brega, a Denver neurosurgeon, was asked about this case. She said that it's fairly common to get massive head wounds with very little bleeding where no strangulation has occurred.



LFB, perhaps we should combine our powers on this?

Was Dr. Brega referring to cases in which the heart was still beating after the head wound was delivered or was his/her experience referring to head wounds that resulted in instant death (e.g., car accidents)? Even if there were clots in her head, that massive a head wound should have bled out internally if her neck weren't tourniqueted.

 

[BBB167893]

Was Dr. Brega referring to cases in which the heart was still beating after the head wound was delivered or was his/her experience referring to head wounds that resulted in instant death (e.g., car accidents)?

Both.

Even if there were clots in her head, that massive a head wound should have bled out internally if her neck weren't tourniqueted.

That's kind of the point, twinkiesmom: it would not necessarily bleed out into the skull, for any number of reasons.

 

[twinkiesmom]

Both.



That's kind of the point, twinkiesmom: it would not necessarily bleed out into the skull, for any number of reasons.

Are you saying that skull crack did not cause a major blood vessel to break? The blood has to go somewhere!

 

[DeeDee249]

Are you saying that skull crack did not cause a major blood vessel to break? The blood has to go somewhere!

I don't think that is what he meant, but he will correct me if I am wrong. I think he meant that had she lived longer, blood would have been exuded from her mouth, ears and nose as well. The coroner did not note this, and actually described some of the mucus as non-hemorrhagic.

 

[twinkiesmom]

I don't think that is what he meant, but he will correct me if I am wrong. I think he meant that had she lived longer, blood would have been exuded from her mouth, ears and nose as well. The coroner did not note this, and actually described some of the mucus as non-hemorrhagic.

From the location of the closed head wound, I would have expected her brain to become flooded with blood and her head to swell....The blood would have been in her head, not coming out her mouth. (This is assuming that her heart was beating (not slowed by vagus compression) and the arteries in her neck not compressed.

I haven't heard any better medicine here than what I read in the Wecht book (which made perfect sense to me).

This is not about IDI...I just want to know what happened to her body.

 

[BBB167893]

Are you saying that skull crack did not cause a major blood vessel to break? The blood has to go somewhere!

I'm saying that head wounds are extremely quirky. Some bleed like he**, others don't, even fatal ones.

 

[BBB167893]

I don't think that is what he meant, but he will correct me if I am wrong. I think he meant that had she lived longer, blood would have been exuded from her mouth, ears and nose as well. The coroner did not note this, and actually described some of the mucus as non-hemorrhagic.

Thanks, DD. I think what you describe is possible.

 

[Peepers]

It seems that the head wound and strangulation could have happened almost simultaneously. Her head was sort of turned to the left and the huge skull fracture was on the left so maybe the perp slammed her head on the concrete floor of the basement. This seems very brutal for a parent. If the head skull fracture was first in the bathroom and a the result of an accident, (ST theory) you would think that the time it took the perp to get her to the basement would have at least given her body the opportunity to show bruising from at least capillary bleeding. It seems odd that the perp would leave her in the bathroom and run to the basement to get the paint stick and such.

 

[DeeDee249]

It seems that the head wound and strangulation could have happened almost simultaneously. Her head was sort of turned to the left and the huge skull fracture was on the left so maybe the perp slammed her head on the concrete floor of the basement. This seems very brutal for a parent. If the head skull fracture was first in the bathroom and a the result of an accident, (ST theory) you would think that the time it took the perp to get her to the basement would have at least given her body the opportunity to show bruising from at least capillary bleeding. It seems odd that the perp would leave her in the bathroom and run to the basement to get the paint stick and such.

If you go back and read, you'll see that her head was cocked to the RIGHT. Your point about the perp running to the basement for the "stick" (paintbrush handle) makes sense; the consensus among many (myself included) is that the garrote was made ON her in the basement. There are small splinters matching the broken brush on the basement carpet near the paint tote.
The hole in her skull couldn't have come from slamming her head into the floor, even a concrete one, though it could certainly cause a fracture- just not the kind of fracture she had. She was HIT with something- like the coroner said.

 

[Peepers]

Your right..the head was turned to the right, and the skull fracture was on the right.

 

[twinkiesmom]

Thanks, DD. I think what you describe is possible.

I don't see how...It's not like she took a bullet to the sinuses to make this happen.

 

[DeeDee249]

I don't see how...It's not like she took a bullet to the sinuses to make this happen.

No, but any head injury can cause a nosebleed. One as severe as the one JB suffered could have resulted in significant bleeding from the nose, mouth and even ears. The head is not watertight. If she had lived longer, there probably would have been more blood, and bleeding that would have been seen externally.

 

[Toltec]

Me thinks she could have been dropped or slammed against the floor safe.

 

[SunnieRN]

JonBenets head injury would have most likely caused brain swelling and bleeding, had she lived longer after the injury. She hit/or was hit with an object that didn't cut her scalp. The flashlight, a bat, a golf club, the bath tub etc. The trauma was to her skull, which is bone and does not bleed much. Had JonBenet lived and been treated, the outcome would have been quite different. What we read was the early stages of surface bleeding. Think of a broken bone. First you have a LOT of pain. A few days later the bruising starts to show up. JonBenets skull was injured, the brain was starting to respond to the trauma.

JonBenet didn't live long enough to see the swelling that would normally occur. This is what would cause the congregation of large amounts of blood in the brain tissue, causing swelling as well as possible long term disabilities, IF she lived! One thing when she died that is possible with the injury she sustained is the leaking of cerebral spinal fluid in the nose, ears and mouth. This fluid can be clear, pink or bloody. I think this is what was draining from JonBenets nose.

 

[txsvicki]

Doesn't all the redness and damage to the neck area yet lack of swelling in the brain prove that she was garrotted first then hit in the head. I can't figure out how she could have been lying down when hit in the head because it would have caused damage to her face with that much force and if standing unrestrained would have sent her flying. How did it happen without damaging the neck or spine? Could she have been sitting on something soft that cushioned the rest of the body or restrained from the impact? I haven't seen much discussion along those lines.

 

[Let_Forever_Be]

Doesn't all the redness and damage to the neck area yet lack of swelling in the brain prove that she was garrotted first then hit in the head. I can't figure out how she could have been lying down when hit in the head because it would have caused damage to her face with that much force and if standing unrestrained would have sent her flying. How did it happen without damaging the neck or spine? Could she have been sitting on something soft that cushioned the rest of the body or restrained from the impact? I haven't seen much discussion along those lines.

I agree.

The lack of brain swelling signals to me that it is likely she died from a vagal reflex : her heart stopped beating --and pumping blood -- and as a result her brain had little blood in it. In simple terms, the head injury was done after the the neck trauma and done when she was dead or near dead.

 

[BBB167893]

Doesn't all the redness and damage to the neck area yet lack of swelling in the brain prove that she was garrotted first then hit in the head.

Not according to the specialists.

 

[Let_Forever_Be]

Not according to the specialists.

The confusing thing about this issue is that there are medical precedents which show how people die from brain trauma without it swelling etc. That is true.

But of course, the experts on this case has offered up differing views and explanations.

I personally believe in Cyril Wecht's thesis as it seems to me to be the most succinct analysis of what happened. Generally, lack of blood and brain swelling in conjunction with a strangulation (vagal reflex etc) would suggest that the neck trauma came first.But that's not a hardened rule per se. Like I say, and so do the experts, there are exceptions & of-course, there are explanations which account for the reverse to be true also.

But to use that clichéd phrase, everything has to be considered in light of the totality of the evidence.That being :

Acute/chronic genital trauma to JonBenet>neck trauma>skull fracture>no evidence for an intruder> Patsy's ransom note (if she wrote it) etc.

So, trying to develop the correct narrative is difficult hence why we have differing views on this board.I will say this, and I'm sure it'll offend many: for the life of me, I simply cannot fathom how people believe, with such certainty, that an intruder did this. To me, it appears that IDI theorists use a lot more faith to come to that conclusion; that is, a belief that an intruder did it as opposed to concrete evidence for it.

 

[BBB167893]

But to use that clichéd phrase, everything has to be considered in light of the totality of the evidence.

No good telling that to some around here!

That being :

Acute/chronic genital trauma to JonBenet>neck trauma>skull fracture>no evidence for an intruder> Patsy's ransom note (if she wrote it) etc.

So, trying to develop the correct narrative is difficult hence why we have differing views on this board. I will say this, and I'm sure it'll offend many: for the life of me, I simply cannot fathom how people believe, with such certainty, that an intruder did this. To me, it appears that IDI theorists use a lot more faith to come to that conclusion; that is, a belief that an intruder did it as opposed to concrete evidence for it.

I'd like to respond to that, LFB. But you'd never see me again if I did.