The cries for help

[ariesgodofwar]

BBM

The pictures were taken 4 hours after the shooting.

The GSR test was done 4 hours after the shooting and I believe it was done after George had been allowed to go to the bathroom.

Page 20

http://www.scribd.com/doc/93951121/State-v-Zimmerman-Evidence-released-by-prosecutor

As someone who has been in my share of fights in my more wild days, the extent of visible injury usually takes about 24 hours to reach the height of inflammation. Just like you run 10 miles and feel sort of tired and sore right afterwards, you feel a who lot worse the next day. So 4 Hours, no argument there.

As for the GSR Test, I have to assume that SPD adhered to SOP of subjects in Investigative Detention using the restroom and monitored accordingly (yes, they likely had a camera in there). There is no indication they violates SOP relating to it, unless you have seen something I have not. However, I am not sure what you are implying? I do not think there is any dispute from the Defense or the SA that GZ shot the gun, thus, GSR was positive. I am not sure what the significance of that is in relation to his trip to the bathroom. What are you pointing to? A suspect being allowed to use the restroom during investigative detention is a normal thing. Forcing a suspect to "hold it" can be considered torture and grounds for a mistrial....."Your honor, they would not let my client relieve himself, so therefore he falsely confessed so as to be able to use the restroom......"

 

[ariesgodofwar]

That's an 'unsubstantiated allegation'. IMO

Given the human head takes about as much force to crack open as a watermelon, GZ would have easily sustained a "Traumatic Brain Injury" given the contusions on his head. So, I think it is accurate to say that whatever stuck him (TM or a mailbox which is non-existent in the complex or any other number of things attributed to have caused the injuries which are not supported by currently known facts of the investigation) could have possibly killed or caused long term injury....thus "half to death."

 

[Dr.Fessel]

It is not a big deal but I think getting pee on your hands nullifies a GSR test as far as evidence goes. I think that is one reason they usually do them fast.

 

[Dr.Fessel]

Given the human head takes about as much force to crack open as a watermelon, GZ would have easily sustained a "Traumatic Brain Injury" given the contusions on his head. So, I think it is accurate to say that whatever stuck him (TM or a mailbox which is non-existent in the complex or any other number of things attributed to have caused the injuries which are not supported by currently known facts of the investigation) could have possibly killed or caused long term injury....thus "half to death."

There are lots of things there he could have fallen into or hit his head on.

 

[ariesgodofwar]

How do you account for the lack of injuries on Trayvon's hands but for that one single 1/4" - 1/8" laceration?

Have you even been in a fist fight? When you have the upper hand, you usually do not sustain great injury. Usually the type laceration which it sounds like TM incurred is from catching it on the person's tooth, or perhaps a piece of jewelry they were wearing (earring, etc). Note they called it a laceration, not a superficial scratch, etc, which would seem to imply some level of depth.

My best guess is, he caught it on a tooth.........but if not from hand to face contact, how did a fresh wound get on the very place that would have contacted GZ's face?

 

[cityslick]

There are lots of things there he could have fallen into or hit his head on.

I think the bigger point is that it doesn't disprove his story that he was getting beat up. That's why everyone was trying to make a case that he had no injuries (by saying the LE video was enhanced and the back of the head photo was fake) up until recently because IMO him having no injuries does disprove that he was in a fight.

 

[Dr.Fessel]

I think the bigger point is that it doesn't disprove his story that he was getting beat up. That's why everyone was trying to make a case that he had no injuries (by saying the LE video was enhanced and the back of the head photo was fake) up until recently because IMO him having no injuries does disprove that he was in a fight.

Oh, well I am talking about the here and now and what we know.

 

[suzihawk]

You don't need to necessarily be sustaining injuries while you are hitting someone.

The fight didn't last that long, it could of just been a matter of a few punches before the shot rang out.

Trust me, if TM did have injuries, wouldn't the argument be that GZ was beating the hell out of TM and then shot him to finish him off? You can't have it both ways.

Of course you can't. I'm not arguing that GZ was beating the hell out of Trayvon. He didn't need to since he had a gun to do the job, IMO

I would think that, even if Trayvon managed to get in a few punches, there would be more evidence than one single tiny laceration to his hands. But that's just my opinion.

 

[Emeralgem]

Read my statement again. Why if GZ had his firearm drawn, and was at standoff distance with TM, would he allow TM to go toe to toe with him? Small and black or not, that would only have to do with TM's perception of the firearm. Most folks who draw down announce they have a firearm, as that is the point, a show of lethal force to gain compliance. No such announcement was attested to by anyone, and I think it defies logic that GZ would allow himself to be beat half to death with a firearm drawn and available, to yell help "20 times" as Witness #6 states, to ultimately then decide to finally use it. Does such a scenario make sense to you?

Who is saying GZ yelled HELP 20 times? I ONLY heard one call out where the word HELP was spoken on the 911 call. Would also like to state I saw the video of GZ when he arrived at the SPD and IIRC he arrived within 30 minutes after he killed Trayvon Martin..There was no sign, none whatsoever of him having been beaten half to death.. There were no visible marks to indicate in anyway he was seriously injured.. To be truthful he didn't even look slightly injured. JMHO

 

[gypsyblue]

You don't need to necessarily be sustaining injuries while you are hitting someone.

The fight didn't last that long, it could of just been a matter of a few punches before the shot rang out.
Trust me, if TM did have injuries, wouldn't the argument be that GZ was beating the hell out of TM and then shot him to finish him off? You can't have it both ways.

bbm...
so this determines that gz's LIFE was in jeopardy too the extent he had to take the LIFE of an unarmed teen? nah..not seein it

and yes, the argument if Trayvon had injuries, would still be that gz instigated the fight. Had he done his duty as a NIGHTWATCHMAN, his "job" would have ceased at at the time he notified the police.

jmooc

 

[Dr.Fessel]

Given the human head takes about as much force to crack open as a watermelon, GZ would have easily sustained a "Traumatic Brain Injury" given the contusions on his head. So, I think it is accurate to say that whatever stuck him (TM or a mailbox which is non-existent in the complex or any other number of things attributed to have caused the injuries which are not supported by currently known facts of the investigation) could have possibly killed or caused long term injury....thus "half to death."

I think the human head is a lot tougher then a watermelon isn't it? The only evidence there is that Martin was beating George's head on the cement is George's statement as far as we know and we haven't seen that. imo

 

[4Jacy]

I neither said nor implied anything of the kind and would appreciate you not parsing my posts to imply otherwise.

Indeed, the scratches could have come from anything. As well as his other superficial injuries. He could have slipped in the wet grass and fell on something causing his injuries. I don't know and stated as much. However, I don't believe he got the injuries from a pummeling from Trayvon. The lack of injuries to Trayvon's hands bears this out, IMO.
This is a message board, not a court of law, and everyone is entitled to their opinions within the TOS outlined. I'm expressing my opinions, for what they're worth.

BBM

Thank you so much for posting the above! Perhaps peeps will think about this before stating it was a confrontation between the young teen and GZ.

 

[Lovelymountains]

I neither said nor implied anything of the kind and would appreciate you not parsing my posts to imply otherwise.

Indeed, the scratches could have come from anything. As well as his other superficial injuries. He could have slipped in the wet grass and fell on something causing his injuries. I don't know and stated as much. However, I don't believe he got the injuries from a pummeling from Trayvon. The lack of injuries to Trayvon's hands bears this out, IMO.

This is a message board, not a court of law, and everyone is entitled to their opinions within the TOS outlined. I'm expressing my opinions, for what they're worth.

I find it impossible to believe that Trayvon Martin who had a very small laceration on his left ring finger and no other injury except a bullethole in his chest could have been engaged in any kind of alteration with George Zimmerman in which TM was the agressor. Those minor injuries on GZ are scratches. Since there is none of Zimmerman's DNA under TM's fingernails, it was not he who scratched him. I believe he fell in some bushes during his "Stake out." And the fact that TM had no injuries other than those noted above pretty well precludes his having his hands on GZ face, covering his mouth and nose so he could not breathe. It can't be both ways if we believe Zimmerman was crying for help. TM could not be pummelling
GZ with his fists and at the same time covering his mouth and nose with his hands. If it is true that TM was on top of GZ, I believe it was only to try to escape from him after a failed attempt by GZ to detain him which, if GZ had been paying attention in his Criminal Justice classes, he would have known was illegal. I believe that it was not GZ at all who was crying out for help. I believe it was TM. It stopped immediately with the gunshot which we all heard on the recordings of the phone calls. I believe it stopped because the victim was dead. Had it been GZ, he would have continued to need help because he wouldn't know TM was dead. One of the witnesses even saw GZ straddling TM's body after he was dead.

No, it was Martin, terrified for his life who was pleading for help. GZ had the gun and he had things well under control.

 

[cityslick]

bbm...
so this determines that gz's LIFE was in jeopardy too the extent he had to take the LIFE of an unarmed teen? nah..not seein it

and yes, the argument if Trayvon had injuries, would still be that gz instigated the fight. Had he done his duty as a NIGHTWATCHMAN, his "job" would have ceased at at the time he notified the police.

jmooc

BBM

It certainly doesn't show that GZ acted with malice and a 'depraved mind' if he's the one getting beat up. At least not according to the law.

I'm also waiting to see proof as to how GZ instigated the fight.

 

[suzihawk]

The portion of my comment you snippet has a question mark at the end for a reason. I am attempting to solicit an explanation from you of your opinion and how the material facts we now know are accounted for. I am not making this a court of law, I am just simply asking what you believe occurred indexed to the facts we know since you reject the readily explainable (Occam's Razor) and fail to put forth a comprehensive theory as to how the series of injuries to GZ and Trayvon's left hand all came to be. Things must be looked at in totality.

George could have slipped and fell, but that that square with, and account for all his injuries? Does that square with witness statements? For this forum to be useful and insightful, we need to stick to the facts and follow them where they lead. Many seem to willfully deny what is right in front of their face as a result of some sort of bias.

We now know eyewitnesses saw the altercation in process, eyewitnesses saw TM doing a Ground and Pound on GZ (MMA move), and we know that George's injuries were consistent with those events occurring, in the fashion, or a very similar fashion to what witnesses said occurred?

If we are going to dispute the veracity of every piece of evidence in this investigation, then there is really no point in discussing it, as it is a guarantee that all logic and discussion will be tainted with bias.

Just as if you are investigating a case, you cannot just disregard or explain away evidence that does not support what you think happened. You must take it and let it enlighten and inform your understanding of events.

To dispute every piece of evidence is just a waste of time, unless you can materially source the dispute to something other than "I think" or IMO.

<BBM for focus>

I've already stated what I believed occurred.


[ame="http://websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7945442&postcount=542"]http://websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7945442&postcount=542[/ame]


Isn't disputing every piece of evidence in an investigation what's done in a court of law in an effort to get to the truth?

I don't think discussing or disputing evidence in a case is a waste of time. However, it's customary on this forum to include "I think" or "IMO' when doing so.

IMO

 

[wowitsdark]

As someone who has been in my share of fights in my more wild days, the extent of visible injury usually takes about 24 hours to reach the height of inflammation. Just like you run 10 miles and feel sort of tired and sore right afterwards, you feel a who lot worse the next day. So 4 Hours, no argument there.

Would this also have been true for TM?

GZ's injuries were to the face.

TM's, if GZ's allegations are true, would likely have been to his knuckles / hands.

TM did have a laceration to a knuckle. Facial tissue is soft and smooth, and I would generally assume that hitting it would not likely result in much breakage to the skin of the hands doing the hitting. However, I would expect bruising under the skin, as well as swelling.

Is this expectation reasonable?

And if so, would the fact that TM died so soon after the alleged beating mean that he did not live enough for bruising / swelling to occur and be visible on his body?

Could the laceration have come from contact with GZ's front teeth?

ETA: I just googled for images - 'knuckles after fight' - and some of the results show knuckles with broken skin, but many just show very swollen joints with no lacerations.

 

[ariesgodofwar]

It is not a big deal but I think getting pee on your hands nullifies a GSR test as far as evidence goes. I think that is one reason they usually do them fast.

Peeing on your hand will not cause you to test positive for a GSR test, nor will washing your hands, that is not how they work. Here is the research on the length GSR is detaectable: http://science.kennesaw.edu/~cdockery/docs/applied_spectroscopy_62(11).pdf

But again, George admits firing the gun, and tested positive. I do not understand what peeing on his hand in the bathroom would have changed. Had George denied it, and then tested negative, I could understand the apprehension perhaps and why a case could be made that was relevant, but not sure how that can be said here.

 

[persnickety]

Read my statement again. Why if GZ had his firearm drawn, and was at standoff distance with TM, would he allow TM to go toe to toe with him? Small and black or not, that would only have to do with TM's perception of the firearm. Most folks who draw down announce they have a firearm, as that is the point, a show of lethal force to gain compliance. No such announcement was attested to by anyone, and I think it defies logic that GZ would allow himself to be beat half to death with a firearm drawn and available, to yell help "20 times" as Witness #6 states, to ultimately then decide to finally use it. Does such a scenario make sense to you?

Do you happen to have a link to your statement about gz being hit 20 times?

 

[ariesgodofwar]

[PpQUOTE=ariesgodofwar;7946337]Read my statement again. Why if GZ had his firearm drawn, and was at standoff distance with TM, would he allow TM to go toe to toe with him? Small and black or not, that would only have to do with TM's perception of the firearm. Most folks who draw down announce they have a firearm, as that is the point, a show of lethal force to gain compliance. No such announcement was attested to by anyone, and I think it defies logic that GZ would allow himself to be beat half to death with a firearm drawn and available, to yell help "20 times" as Witness #6 states, to ultimately then decide to finally use it. Does such a scenario make sense to you?

Do you happen to have a link to your statement about gz being hit 20 times?

ABC has 14 times noted during the 911 call: "The documents state that Zimmerman can be heard yelling for help 14 times on a 911 call recorded during the fight. "

See http://abcnews.go.com/US/trayvon-ma...orge-zimmerman/story?id=16371852#.T7qC-Jj3MR_

The number "20" came from last night's episode of Geraldo-At-Large when Crump and O'Mara were interviewed, and came from the taped interview with a witness (not in the physical documents). I do not have a link at the moment. Based on the 911 call, we know it was at least 14 times that were recorded, and as such, there were likely additional cries given that something had to trigger the caller to 911 to call in the first place. (Most likely the unrecorded pleas for help)

 

[Dr.Fessel]

Would this also have been true for TM?

GZ's injuries were to the face.

TM's, if GZ's allegations are true, would likely have been to his knuckles / hands.

TM did have a laceration to a knuckle. Facial tissue is soft and smooth, and I would generally assume that hitting it would not likely result in much breakage to the skin of the hands doing the hitting. However, I would expect bruising under the skin, as well as swelling.

Is this expectation reasonable?

And if so, would the fact that TM died so soon after the alleged beating mean that he did not live enough for bruising / swelling to occur and be visible on his body?

Could the laceration have come from contact with GZ's front teeth?

It wasn't a laceration according to the autopsy report, it was an abrasion.