The Crown v Gerard Baden-Clay, 19th June - Trial Day 7, Week 2

[Consider]

Hi guys.
Sorry to comment on my own dumb post. I was stupid and clumsy to try to simplify something very dear to my heart as to how society has changed over the years. I really never meant any offence. I of course am aware of the differences in gender and sexual choices etc I was trying to show how we cannot choose the kids we get....we get what we get and Thank God that the world is so much more accepting today compared to the dinosaur years.
I am sorry I'll put it down to a senior moment totally lacking...and I apologise.

:truce:

Ah Zim don't be so hard on yourself. Life is for the living, we're all human and honestly you initiated a terrific, heart-warming and worthwhile conversation in my family home tonight. And I laughed at myself in a way I haven't heard in nearly 2 decades. I haven't a clue how it came up - but you've done some good here! Thank you.

 

[FigTree]

Yes my thought too. If the heart is not pumping, then there is no circulatory system to pump the blood? I am also not sure how much blood flow there would be from an injury to an already deceased body. Maybe I'm having a vague moment here(?)

Dr Watson or any other medical experts?

I was wondering if the blood had come from the ear - if the head had been forward over the seat and tight up against the side of the car.
Unless it was blood that dripped out of plastic covering or some other wrap material.

Was the contents of the vacuum cleaner that was taken away ever checked?

 

[Makara]

Yes, Ive been doing a few searches trying to find out what actual night it was on, and what time it stared that night, and finished.
Hard to find old programming guides on the net...

Thanks for that though Marlywings
The last text would have come through while the footy show was on.

Figtree I remember there was a discussion early on about what time the Footy Show started on the Thursday night. From memory one of our sleuthers found that it actually started late that night. I vaguely recall that it didn't start until after 10:00pm but I could be wrong.

Do you remember this Marly? If I get time tomorrow, I'll see if I can find the relevant posts about it. I'm reasonably sure it was before GBC was arrested on 13 June 2012.

 

[Consider]

Trying to get my head around no blood at the house AND in the carport yet blood in the car.

Cattail I think you and I arrived at planet WS about the same time.

I'm wondering if GBC took the hose away from Allison's property on the morning of the 20th because it had been used somehow (sparingly?) to wash away blood and creek mud traces around the carport area perhaps.

 

[Champagne4lulu]

From what I recall, back in 2012, the footy show started at 9pm but frequently started late. And sometimes it didn't finish until after 11pm.

Apparently, last year the program time was rescheduled & supposed to start at 8.30pm.

According to Wikipedia, would have been 9.30pm start in April 2012
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Footy_Show_(AFL)

 

[Consider]

This is so contradictory.

Blood in car with no sign of an attempted cleanup.

Plant matter in hair that is specific to house.

Yet no blood in house, and no obvious cleanup.

No blood in carport area.


No forensics matching GBC shoes or car to area where body was found.

How can the same person have covered up some things so well and others so poorly??

My gut has said from the start that he did it. But my gut feeling has no legal standing. I am worried that what seems so obvious to the general public is not so cut and dried from a legal viewpoint.

Could they have gone to the car to have the conference?!
Could he have murdered her in the Captiva!?

 

[Consider]

This is so contradictory.

Blood in car with no sign of an attempted cleanup.

Plant matter in hair that is specific to house.

Yet no blood in house, and no obvious cleanup.

No blood in carport area.


No forensics matching GBC shoes or car to area where body was found.

How can the same person have covered up some things so well and others so poorly??

My gut has said from the start that he did it. But my gut feeling has no legal standing. I am worried that what seems so obvious to the general public is not so cut and dried from a legal viewpoint.

Could they have gone to the car to have the conference?!
Could he have murdered her in the Captiva!?

Taken the baby monitor... Raised their voices without neighbours or the girls hearing them?

 

[Consider]

I believe the footy show is supposed to start around 8:40 and go for an hour.

However it is Channel 9 who run late quite often.

That it finished past 10pm would not surprise me.

I'm fairly certain I heard on tv news that the channel that airs that show recently had to provide the trial the timing of the show on the night of the 19th.

 

[Consider]

Perhaps a combination of having help with the house clean up - but he may have intended to do the car too but the police turned up and took action far sooner than he expected?

Did Allison work on the 19th?
Most say she was happy. She was having her hair done, maybe going to dinner with a friend, the kids were being fed by the BC's, GBC was driving them and preparing them for bed - a pretty decent Thursday night for Allison (a long time coming I suspect) so maybe Allison in her appreciation/good spirits through herself into a bit of extra housework : we've all been there!

 

[Consider]

The white bright substance is not the blood. There was only one smudge with 2 drips of blood down to the floor on the driver side wall/wheel arch in the boot area. That boot area has the pop up third row of seats. There is a photo a few pages ago on this thread that shows the blood. There are also photos that the blood has highlighted as blue presumably from the chemical used.

alioop Thank you for your patience and making that crystal clear for me.
Finally I get it and understand the photos of the blood now.

If Allison was murdered in the Captiva - this is the only clue as to how then IMO

 

[Consider]

Interesting the footy show commences at about 8.40pm and GBC removes his phone from charge at 8.45pm he does not replace it until 148 am on the 20th.
Wonder if he still had his pj's and joggers on.

Someone asked before : Where are those PJ's?

Anyone else thrown on shoes with pj's to briefly duck outside at night say for a quite little conference/argument with your partner in your sound proof car?

 

[Consider]

I've been wondering about this. If my brother was on trial for murder, and I lived on the other side of the world, I would be there to support him in a flash, UNLESS I THOUGHT HE DID IT!!!!

Yeah, but you probably like your brother...

 

[Consider]

There was an ep of the Simpsons whereby marge and homer go out to the car so they don't argue in front of the kids. Perhaps that's what happened here. They went to the car so they wouldn't disturb the kids if they got upset. Things get heated, escalate, struggle ensues, she scratches his face. He bashes her head in car hence transfer stain, and before you know is, she she is knocked out. He suffocates her then dumps body.

:twocents: moo

Ah huh! Champagne4lulu We speak the same language! Mine just considerably slower...:facepalm:

 

[Consider]

Respectfully snipped.

LadyBird it has never been established that OW was at GBC's at 6:00am on 20 April 2012.

According to Constable Ash's statement;



GBC told the girls shortly after 6:00am, not OW.

BBM.

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Bail Hearing Documents *No Discussion*

Olivia, Olivia; I think I get her comment now - she thinks this is all just ridiculous, she can't believe what her brother has done calling 000, telling the kids something so ridiculous, (Is that OK? - she's a mum and she knows it's not & she can't tell GBC off & she's hoping the police will) being there herself (away from her family and sorting out his at this hour of the day) when she thinks Allison is just off walking too long somewhere different today and will walk in the door any minute. She's had enough. JMO

 

[Consider]

Respectfully snipped.

LadyBird it has never been established that OW was at GBC's at 6:00am on 20 April 2012.

According to Constable Ash's statement;



GBC told the girls shortly after 6:00am, not OW.

BBM.

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Bail Hearing Documents *No Discussion*

Olivia, Olivia; I think I get her comment now - she thinks this is all just ridiculous, she can't believe what her brother has done calling 000, telling the kids something so ridiculous, (Is that OK? - she's a mum and she knows it's not & she can't tell GBC off & she's hoping the police will) being there herself (away from her family and sorting out his at this hour of the day) when she thinks Allison is just off walking too long somewhere different today and will walk in the door any minute. Cleaning up their house, making their kids beds and breakfast, getting cups and saucers out (like EBC would) for company/police. She's had enough. JMO

But she'd been in hospital with a migraine and Allison picked her up; so really she owes her one...
And maybe her head still hurts too. (?)

 

[Deleted member 102539]

.............................................
1:11pm - GBC phoned Robyn Ratcliffe, Solicitor Toowoomba. Pinged from Indoorpilly.
1:12pm - GBC phoned Robyn Ratcliffe, Solicitor Toowoomba. Call pinged from Chapel Hill.

Thanks for the timeline. Additions: GBC home after dinner with NBC, GBC off to bed.

Unfortunately, I don't know a connection, but from Chapel Hill there are no jurors? Did anybody found out, why?

 

[Consider]

I'm sorry I don't understand ?

n a I l s : being the five letter word

 

[PrimeSuspect]

I've been searching the internet, death by strangulation, interestingly I found this information about scratch marks made by women. Imo, this very much describes the fingernail markings on GBC's face.

Three types of fingernail markings may occur, singly or in combination: impression, scratch, or
claw marks. Impression marks occur when the fingernails cut into the skin; they are shaped like
commas or semi-circles. Scratch marks are superficial and long, and may be narrow or as wide
as the fingernail itself. Claw marks occur when the skin is undermined; they tend to be more
vicious and dramatic appearing.
Because most victims are women, the scratches caused by their
longer nails frequently are more severe than the scratches caused by assailant’s.

http://www.ncdsv.org/images/strangulation_article.pdf

 

[Consider]

You're right in terms of lack of heartbeat resulting in a lack of pumping blood. But blood in the veins (as opposed to arteries), particularly peripheral veins (just under the skin) can flow out if injured, for some time after death. It's darker blood, and will tend to pool or dribble, as opposed to the usual arterial "spurter" so well known by surgeons (!) and TV audiences

The amount of blood in the back of the Captiva was small, so could feasibly have come from a small tear in a peripheral vein or even the scalp, lip, a bang on the nose, eyebrow, chin, etc. This could quite feasibly have occurred after death - but very shortly after.

The fact that the blood in the car was only on the side and not in the middle could be due to EITHER the injury being of an extremity (foot or head), OR that the rest of the body was covered by something or was lying on something (eg a tarp).

But when all said and done, the amount of blood was really quite small. And as I have suggested on here before on a few occasions, and which was confirmed by the forensic scientist in the witness box today or yesterday, there is no way to "date" or "age" blood after that first hour or two, to say how long it's been there. That could be a flaw in the prosecution argument.

However, the hair, which appears to be stuck IN the blood, is another matter. And especially if it showed evidence of the hairdresser's the night before....

So Allison's head (and hair) most likely struck this point in the car either before or shortly after death?

 

[Consider]

You're right in terms of lack of heartbeat resulting in a lack of pumping blood. But blood in the veins (as opposed to arteries), particularly peripheral veins (just under the skin) can flow out if injured, for some time after death. It's darker blood, and will tend to pool or dribble, as opposed to the usual arterial "spurter" so well known by surgeons (!) and TV audiences

The amount of blood in the back of the Captiva was small, so could feasibly have come from a small tear in a peripheral vein or even the scalp, lip, a bang on the nose, eyebrow, chin, etc. This could quite feasibly have occurred after death - but very shortly after.

The fact that the blood in the car was only on the side and not in the middle could be due to EITHER the injury being of an extremity (foot or head), OR that the rest of the body was covered by something or was lying on something (eg a tarp).

But when all said and done, the amount of blood was really quite small. And as I have suggested on here before on a few occasions, and which was confirmed by the forensic scientist in the witness box today or yesterday, there is no way to "date" or "age" blood after that first hour or two, to say how long it's been there. That could be a flaw in the prosecution argument.

However, the hair, which appears to be stuck IN the blood, is another matter. And especially if it showed evidence of the hairdresser's the night before....

So Allison's head (and hair) most likely struck this point in the car either before or shortly after death, impossible to which. Yes?