The Crown v Gerard Baden-Clay, 19th June - Trial Day 7, Week 2

[Deleted member 102539]

Did Allison work on the 19th?
Most say she was happy. She was having her hair done, maybe going to dinner with a friend, the kids were being fed by the BC's, GBC was driving them and preparing them for bed - a pretty decent Thursday night for Allison (a long time coming I suspect) so maybe Allison in her appreciation/good spirits through herself into a bit of extra housework : we've all been there!

After looking TV, already in pj for hours - I wouldn't. :smile:

 

[Consider]

Where did the blood come from.
No heart beating, no blood flow.

Unless Allison's blood pooled into plastic (?) and spilt out into the car or got torn.
There are no sharp edges in the back of that car unless she was pushed in and into something sharp then something could have split the plastic.
That loop where the blood starts lays flat until it is needed and pulls out to tie things to, the photos of the blood shows it's pulled out. Was it this that chipped Allison's tooth?
The blood dripped down where the third row of seats are, that's why it wasn't seen.

I'm thinking aloud trying to understand why there was no blood around the house and no major injuries on Allison and if Allison was dead when placed into the car how was the blood flowing.

After midnight. Rant over.

Yes, perhaps Allison's tooth hit the metal ring, her cheek smudged past (above) the remaining trail of blood flow caused by ? Her tooth going through her lip? Same impact knocked her out or she was punched out first then hit head or she was shoved hard to hit head and injure head? lip? and/or tooth? at this point (?)

 

[TootsieFootsie]

Would the Wayback Machine be of any help ?

I couldn't find the one for the 19th April 2012 but the 1st of May 2012 is there.
Thats if its the correct Footy Show, it shows it starting at 9.30 Thursday night

Wayback Machine http://archive.org/web/
I put in http://www.ourguide.com.au in the search box.
You could try other tv guides in the search.

Yes, Ive been doing a few searches trying to find out what actual night it was on, and what time it stared that night, and finished.
Hard to find old programming guides on the net...

Thanks for that though Marlywings
The last text would have come through while the footy show was on.

 

[Consider]

Gotta love Hawkins.
What disturbs me is TM's bleating of 'deserving the respect' that G has payed to Allison and not to herself. I am too tired to find the words, but TM was anxious to claim a non existent pedestal as a prize. Women perpetuate the problem too!

TM didn't understand to GBC she offered an escape and 'masculine relief':blushing: from his confronting and failing personal and professional life.

GBC is a self-serving charmer. He won Allison and various others by appearing to be successful, ambitious and full of potential all the while playing victim and seeming to be boyishly vulnerable which naturally appeals to a woman's nurturing instincts.

But there's no excuse for acting on anything a married man presents you with!!

JMO

Seems I can't help but find some charity for OW, even TM.
Maybe when GBC is locked away safe and sound with no more bills or burdens Some charity can be extended to him... Pictures of his girls thriving perhaps.

 

[TootsieFootsie]

Oops sorry I didn't see someone had already posted that the Footy Show back then did start at 9.30pm :blushing:

 

[Deleted member 102539]

TMcH had testified, on 19th afternoon GBC and herself had a meeting in her car in front of a fish-and-chip restaurant. Could it be, Allison drove just this one street and passed the car with both, her husband and mistress on her way to the hairdresser? The hairdresser said, Allison had an unaccustomed and no good mood on this afternoon/evening.
IF Allison had seen the pair, then there was guaranteed dispute at home (inside or outside).

 

[Deleted member 102539]

TM didn't understand to GBC she offered an escape and 'masculine relief':blushing: from his confronting and failing personal and professional life.

GBC is a self-serving charmer. He won Allison and various others by appearing to be successful, ambitious and full of potential all the while playing victim and seeming to be boyishly vulnerable which naturally appeals to a woman's nurturing instincts.

But there's no excuse for acting on anything a married man presents you with!!

JMO

Seems I can't help but find some charity for OW, even TM.
Maybe when GBC is locked away safe and sound with no more bills or burdens Some charity can be extended to him... Pictures of his girls thriving perhaps.

I wonder whether TMcH really didn't noticed over the years, how evil GBC was/is as a husband and father and person?

 

[Mrs G Norris]

You know .. all this business about 'family name' and Allison and Gerard wanting a boy and all this nonsense as if they are some kind of noble family is such utter and complete rubbish .. they were BARELY middle class .. actually in reality they were sliding down fast .. they couldn't afford the school their girls went to, Gerard who was in the industry but hadn't even bought them a family home .. they were in the hole financially and things were getting worse .. it was all a complete illusion .. but it was just so important to them .. sorry, but really?? Talk about appearances over reality. Honestly .. does it even really matter, is it so important to appear to have some kind of social success when in reality your life is a disaster?

How much did this need to 'keep up appearances' play into this tragedy .. I'd suggest a fair bit, is it why Allison didn't speak the truth of her marriage .. was she in denial, or did she know the truth, but didn't know how to tell others, or did she want to keep up appearances herself? Did Gerard go from zero to murder in one night, or had he been physically abusing her for years? What amount of emotional abuse (beyond humiliating her with numerous affairs) went on? How many secrets was Allison keeping, and what stopped her from reaching out for help to the people in her life? When she reached out to a professional she was handed a packet of pills with no attempt to dig into the cause for her distress, as if there is some kind of agreement never to open up a can of worms which could pull down a charade, what a shame.

People looking in from the outside think the leafy middle class suburbs are just as perfect as they seem, but what a social disaster. How many women suffer in silence in order to maintain an illusion? Where do they go for help? Do they tell their friends that they've been trying to impress since high school that things are a disaster, do they go down to centerlink and start finding their way around the social welfare system to support themselves and their kids if they leave or get dumped for a younger woman, do they dust off unused degrees obtained decades ago and hope to find a job with no experience, if in physical danger do they reach out to a women's shelter if they need a safe place?

I guess what I am saying is that this sad need to appear to be living the dream can be incredibly dangerous once you put it above the truth .. Allison's instincts were SCREAMING at her, yet she still didn't leave or reach out, and Gerard was just as miserable .. wanting to leave, but not feeling like he could either and this whole thing has ended in tragedy.

Who really cares what car you drive, what suburb you live in, whether or not your picture perfect marriage turned out to be a joke, put your kids in public school if you can't afford the private one (it might save them from trying to fit an image that's all an illusion themselves one day) find a way, be happy, or at least be honest and safe.

 

[Cattail]

Cattail I think you and I arrived at planet WS about the same time.



I'm wondering if GBC took the hose away from Allison's property on the morning of the 20th because it had been used somehow (sparingly?) to wash away blood and creek mud traces around the carport area perhaps.

Hi Consider

That's possible - I also wonder if the hose and vacuum weren't used in any cleanup - just NBC taking them to act like things were normal - it was still early - he didn't want to "alarm" anyone

 

[spratsmum]

You know .. all this business about 'family name' and Allison and Gerard wanting a boy and all this nonsense as if they are some kind of noble family is such utter and complete rubbish .. they were BARELY middle class .. actually in reality they were sliding down fast .. they couldn't afford the school their girls went to, Gerard who was in the industry but hadn't even bought them a family home .. they were in the hole financially and things were getting worse .. it was all a complete illusion .. but it was just so important to them .. sorry, but really?? Talk about appearances over reality. Honestly .. does it even really matter, is it so important to appear to have some kind of social success when in reality your life is a disaster?

How much did this need to 'keep up appearances' play into this tragedy .. I'd suggest a fair bit, is it why Allison didn't speak the truth of her marriage .. was she in denial, or did she know the truth, but didn't know how to tell others, or did she want to keep up appearances herself? Did Gerard go from zero to murder in one night, or had he been physically abusing her for years? What amount of emotional abuse (beyond humiliating her with numerous affairs) went on? How many secrets was Allison keeping, and what stopped her from reaching out for help to the people in her life? When she reached out to a professional she was handed a packet of pills with no attempt to dig into the cause for her distress, as if there is some kind of agreement never to open up a can of worms which could pull down a charade, what a shame.

People looking in from the outside think the leafy middle class suburbs are just as perfect as they seem, but what a social disaster. How many women suffer in silence in order to maintain an illusion? Where do they go for help? Do they tell their friends that they've been trying to impress since high school that things are a disaster, do they go down to centerlink and start finding their way around the social welfare system to support themselves and their kids if they leave or get dumped for a younger woman, do they dust off unused degrees obtained decades ago and hope to find a job with no experience, if in physical danger do they reach out to a women's shelter if they need a safe place?

I guess what I am saying is that this sad need to appear to be living the dream can be incredibly dangerous once you put it above the truth .. Allison's instincts were SCREAMING at her, yet she still didn't leave or reach out, and Gerard was just as miserable .. wanting to leave, but not feeling like he could either and this whole thing has ended in tragedy.

Who really cares what car you drive, what suburb you live in, whether or not your picture perfect marriage turned out to be a joke, put your kids in public school if you can't afford the private one (it might save them from trying to fit an image that's all an illusion themselves one day) find a way, be happy, or at least be honest and safe.

So very true MRS G Norris, but so many people live this reality and I believe both Allison and Gerard were. It is very sad, but our society puts such a value on outside show that to live it many people are making themselves so unhappy. Have as good weekend.

 

[beechworth]

Here's an abstract of a medical journal article about overdoses of Zoloft (sertraline).

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8808373

Summary: A study of 42 cases of sertraline overdose. The maximum dose taken was 8,000 mg (I seem to recall that Allison was on 100mg daily?). Most common symptoms were tremor (shaking), lethargy and nausea. The average time from overdose to presentation at hospital was 3 hours. 12 people were admitted for 24-hour observation. Of the rest, average stay in the emergency department was 3.9 hours. Nobody died.

Good find! I hope they really explore these kinds of facts and interview more experts to impress upon the jury how uncommon death by sertraline overdose is and further discredit the defense's suicide argument.

 

[Maigret]

You know .. all this business about 'family name' and Allison and Gerard wanting a boy and all this nonsense as if they are some kind of noble family is such utter and complete rubbish .. they were BARELY middle class .. actually in reality they were sliding down fast .. they couldn't afford the school their girls went to, Gerard who was in the industry but hadn't even bought them a family home .. they were in the hole financially and things were getting worse .. it was all a complete illusion .. but it was just so important to them .. sorry, but really?? Talk about appearances over reality. Honestly .. does it even really matter, is it so important to appear to have some kind of social success when in reality your life is a disaster?

How much did this need to 'keep up appearances' play into this tragedy .. I'd suggest a fair bit, is it why Allison didn't speak the truth of her marriage .. was she in denial, or did she know the truth, but didn't know how to tell others, or did she want to keep up appearances herself? Did Gerard go from zero to murder in one night, or had he been physically abusing her for years? What amount of emotional abuse (beyond humiliating her with numerous affairs) went on? How many secrets was Allison keeping, and what stopped her from reaching out for help to the people in her life? When she reached out to a professional she was handed a packet of pills with no attempt to dig into the cause for her distress, as if there is some kind of agreement never to open up a can of worms which could pull down a charade, what a shame.

People looking in from the outside think the leafy middle class suburbs are just as perfect as they seem, but what a social disaster. How many women suffer in silence in order to maintain an illusion? Where do they go for help? Do they tell their friends that they've been trying to impress since high school that things are a disaster, do they go down to centerlink and start finding their way around the social welfare system to support themselves and their kids if they leave or get dumped for a younger woman, do they dust off unused degrees obtained decades ago and hope to find a job with no experience, if in physical danger do they reach out to a women's shelter if they need a safe place?

I guess what I am saying is that this sad need to appear to be living the dream can be incredibly dangerous once you put it above the truth .. Allison's instincts were SCREAMING at her, yet she still didn't leave or reach out, and Gerard was just as miserable .. wanting to leave, but not feeling like he could either and this whole thing has ended in tragedy.

Who really cares what car you drive, what suburb you live in, whether or not your picture perfect marriage turned out to be a joke, put your kids in public school if you can't afford the private one (it might save them from trying to fit an image that's all an illusion themselves one day) find a way, be happy, or at least be honest and safe.

A very good post and yes I agree - live within your means - neither are happy now nor were they very happy then but if Allison had left him she would probably be happy now and her girls would certainly be much happier now

 

[Seeking]

Makara, wasn't the blood also found on the wheel arches in the back of the captiva? I posted a photo a few pages back and thought way back in the early stages the photos were released showing where the luminol was indicating the blood? That it was on the door there that you have shown and in the back. Is that wrong? If so , appologies for my mistake.. might have to go sit back in my box, lol.[

My question refers to the picture with the blood with the right angled measuring stick. In the corner of that measuring stick there is a recession in the wall of the car with a ring type structure in it. Can anyone tell me what exactly this is please.

 

[DrWatson]

Good find! I hope they really explore these kinds of facts and interview more experts to impress upon the jury how uncommon death by sertraline overdose is and further discredit the defense's suicide argument.

Hi Beechworth - see my post on the previous page. The whole sertraline dosage and levels thing was discussed at great length way back, and the information that was put together here was actually given to the prosecution. It was used at the second bail hearing, and presented by Dr Rob Hoskins, the same forensic pathologist who gave evidence at the trial yesterday about the scratches.

Marly may be able to find references to that discussion - she is a search genius

 

[squizzey1]

Makara, wasn't the blood also found on the wheel arches in the back of the captiva? I posted a photo a few pages back and thought way back in the early stages the photos were released showing where the luminol was indicating the blood? That it was on the door there that you have shown and in the back. Is that wrong? If so , appologies for my mistake.. might have to go sit back in my box, lol.[

My question refers to the picture with the blood with the right angled measuring stick. In the corner of that measuring stick there is a recession in the wall of the car with a ring type structure in it. Can anyone tell me what exactly this is please.

they are points for fastening things , like strap in a suitcase and also some baby seats have straps that tie back to them too

 

[DrWatson]

My question refers to the picture with the blood with the right angled measuring stick. In the corner of that measuring stick there is a recession in the wall of the car with a ring type structure in it. Can anyone tell me what exactly this is please.

That's what is called a luggage tie-down point. They are in the back of most 4WD vehicles. They flip out (as in the photo), and you hook the octopus straps ("Ockies") around them to tie down anything that is loose in the back. I have them in the back of my 4WD.

The ockie straps are what the daughter referred to in her interview when she mentioned "plastic 'ropes' with hooks on the end" or words to that effect. I also keep some of those in the back of the car.

EDIT: Snap, Squizzey - posted as you posted yours

 

[Tangled_Web]

I think the difference is the police saw no scrubbed carpet patches for eg whereas Mrs Dickie saw a house that was very very tidy when it usually wasn't.

I agree. And to me that seems so telling given how very "rushed" he was that morning.

 

[squizzey1]

That's what is called a luggage tie-down point. They are in the back of most 4WD vehicles. They flip out (as in the photo), and you hook the octopus straps ("Ockies") around them to tie down anything that is loose in the back. I have them in the back of my 4WD.

The ockie straps are what the daughter referred to in her interview when she mentioned "plastic 'ropes' with hooks on the end" or words to that effect. I also keep some of those in the back of the car.

EDIT: Snap, Squizzey - posted as you posted yours

so we both right doc

 

[LadyBird1]

Respectfully snipped.

LadyBird it has never been established that OW was at GBC's at 6:00am on 20 April 2012.

According to Constable Ash's statement;



GBC told the girls shortly after 6:00am, not OW.

BBM.

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Bail Hearing Documents *No Discussion*

Thanks Makara. Was thinking about that long gap between the screams, thuds etc and early morning activities.
There are a few things to fill in there now. Daughter saw her father wearing pyjamas and shoes. He said he was ironing .......
Wonder what time that was.
One thing about that observation .... He was wearing pyjamas ... Where were those pyjamas next morning?

There is also the two cars travelling slowly with lights off observation.
I expect that will come to light maybe next week.

And I hope that the person who alegedly saw NBC at the bus stop, will be a witness.

 

[LadyBird1]

Another random thought ...
If couples are arguing at night, and the argument is really heated, it is hard, almost impossible to sleep or even think about sleep or relax, watch TV or just switch off.
I know you aren't supposed to let the sun go down upon your wrath and all, but it is still very difficult. Just saying ......