The Doe Network, Part 3: Who is Princess Blue?

Welcome to Websleuths!
Click to learn how to make a missing person's thread

DNA Solves
DNA Solves
DNA Solves
Status
Not open for further replies.
For those of you who are members over at SKM (www.someoneknowsme.com) and have access to Princess Blue's forum, I have posted a link to the 1974 (Junior Class) Robert E. Lee High School yearbook scans. I have also added all their names to the spreadsheet. I added a new page for all the Juniors who were in the class and then I added another page that has the names of the girls that were there (REL HS) as Juniors in 1974 but weren't there in '75 (didn't go on to REL HS their senior year). There were 46 girls in the junior class of 74 that didn't go on to REL their senior year.

ETA: If there are any others here who would like to help in identifying Princess Blue and would like to join us at SKM, we'd LOVE to have you! Privacy issues prevent us from posting some information here.
 
So far I've found that one of the girls who was a junior in 1974 at Robert E. Lee High School and didn't go on to be a senior (in the Class of '75) at REL Houston had a daughter born in Jan of 1974. The girl who had the child was 17 when she married and her husband 23. Trying to figure out how to research the child further? I know I could check marriage records for the child. Any other ideas?

ETA: Another female that was a jr in 1974 had a daughter born March of 1975.
 
Great research work, RKnowley! Perhaps we can track down those two students and learn more about them. I am not sure about how to further research either alumni who had their children in 74 and 75, but the wheels are turning.

Lion
 
Here is a database for searching marriages in the state of Tx. (Houston would be Harris County)
http://www.genwed.com/state/txgen.htm

You might be able to use Intelius.com to search one of the parents' names---it'll sometimes list relatives, one of those names might be that of the children.

How can one obtain the password for the someoneknowsme site? (one of the threads was asking for a password)
 
Mrs. Rusty, if you are getting a request for a password it is because the forum has personal information such as alumni info and personal addresses, and we decided early on that we did not want that info viewable by the general public. You can register at someoneknowsme.com and then you will have access to that forum. Hope that helps.

:)
 
Thanks for the info.
It's been about 5-6 months since I read the threads and all info here, I'm going to go back and read it all once more to re-acquaint myself with the case again before I ask for a password for the REL forum over there.
I will ask something now even though I may find the answer in reading back through here. I just finished reading a book about Anthony Allen Shore-a Houston serial killer, has anybody explored that avenue? LE believes he's killed more than the 4 he's confessed to. But from what I've read the girls he's killed were left with the cord around their necks (with a handle for easier turning---forgot its name right off, JBR had one when found too).
Anyway, again, thanks for the info. I'll be requesting a password in a few days.
 
Actually, there were several serial killers in the Houston area during this time. Anthony Shore one of them and another was a Roy Stuart. The other names escape me right now.

Thanks for the info.
It's been about 5-6 months since I read the threads and all info here, I'm going to go back and read it all once more to re-acquaint myself with the case again before I ask for a password for the REL forum over there.
I will ask something now even though I may find the answer in reading back through here. I just finished reading a book about Anthony Allen Shore-a Houston serial killer, has anybody explored that avenue? LE believes he's killed more than the 4 he's confessed to. But from what I've read the girls he's killed were left with the cord around their necks (with a handle for easier turning---forgot its name right off, JBR had one when found too).
Anyway, again, thanks for the info. I'll be requesting a password in a few days.
 
Hi, and welcome back MSRusty:). Yes, Shore is a possible person of interest in our minds as the one responsible for whatever happened to our beloved Princess Blue. Then again, it could have been a lone killer, a bf, or someone else besides a serial killer responsible. But, I have uncovered info that there may have been at least 4 or more separate serial killers operating in the Houston area from between the late 70,s and the early 90's.

Most were operating during the same time period, which may have further taxed LE's resources in making headway on any one missing/UID case. I posted about them in one of the Princess threads, but I cannot recall which one at this time. If you read up on all of the threads this may help you to get up to speed on this and much more, if you're interested. This has become an in depth case on ws with lots of details, so I understand if you or others don't have the time or energy to read all of the posts on the 3 threads.

Lion
 
Help me out here...

Looking at Princess Blue's ME report can you help me figure out how many fillings Princess Blue had? A poster awhile back said Princess Blue had numerous fillings that were older and of mediocre quality. I am only seeing (in the report) a couple of fillings. Am I missing something??

I also want to point out to the new folks here on Princess Blue thread that even though the ME report ruled that Princess Blue was hispanic a new forensic workup was done by forensic specialists on Princess Blue and they ruled that Princess Blue was caucasion with possible mixed ethnic heritage (it is likely one parent or one grandparent was African-American).

This is what the report says (I'm not going to correct the spelling errors in it as I didn't type it up in the first place, lol).

History: These skeletal remains of a Hispanic female were found under a trash pile at the dead end of County Road 101, east of Hwy 288, Manvel, Brazoria County, Texas at 5 pm on Sept. 10, 1990. Some property (jewelry) was recovered at the scene with the skeletal remains.

Autopsy: The uatopsy was performed in the [HCME's office] by forensic pathologist Eduardo Bellas, MD, at the request of and upon the written authorization of the Hon. Bill Todd, Justice of the Peace, Precinct 8, Brazoria County, Texas, beginning at 2 pm on Sept. 11, 1990.

Extrernal Appearance: The bpdy was that of a totally skeletonized human remains which consisted of the entire skull with nonprominant frontal ridges or mastoid process. The nasal aperture were those of a caucasion configuration and the upper arch was U-shaped, resembling mongoloid character. The cheek bones were not prominent. The orbital sockets were rather square. The right and left sides of the upper jaw were not still fused as was not the transversal suture of the hard palate.

The foramen magnum and the configuration of the base of the skull and the outside of the skull showed no abnormalities. Upon removal of the calvarium, it was found that the clivus was almost totally obliterated and the endocranium appeared to be not remarkable. Natural teeth in good condition in part and some in bad condition were observed. According with the Universal System, teeth 1, 17 and 32 (wisdom teeth) were present and unerupted. Tooth 16 was absent. The corresponding alveolar spavce was totally obliterated by mature bone tissue.

There was a large caries on the buccal aspect in tooth 2 and tooth 5 was missing postmortem. Teeth 3 and 4 were in good condition as well as tooth 14 which had a minute occlusal amalgam. Tooth 6 (upper right canine) had extensive caries at the mesial surface extending to the buccal surface as well as toward the lingual area. Tooth 9 (left upper central incisor) had a recent occlusal postmortem fracture at the tip. Tooth 10 was surgically absent and the corresponding alveolar space partially obliterated by mature bone. In the lower arch, tooth 17 was unerupted and tooth 18 had a minute round buccal amalgam. Tooth 19 had a large occlusal caries extending to buccal, mesial and distal aspects with only 1/3 of the crown surface left. Teeth 2o-29 were present. A large caries on the mesial and buccal surgace of tooth 20 was observed. A small lateral caries was noticed in tghe lateral aspect of tooth 29. Teeth 30 and 31 were in good condition, however, the lateral aspect of tooth 30 was observed with black discoloration of the crown area and conssitent with a distal caries.

The lower jaw was intact. The two scapula as well as the hip bones were submitted and the fusion between the first sacral vertebra with the sacrum was incomplete in the anterior portion. the configuration of the three bones of the pelvbis were consistent with female-type and the symphysis pubis with numerous pits alternating with the elevations which suggested a very young person. The fusion of the iliac crests of the hip bones was partial in some areas. The sternum was submitted in two pieces and was not remarkable. 22 ribs were submitted. The right first rib aliong with the second right rib showed a hairline fracture measuring 1-3/4 inches in length in the first right rib and 1-1/4 inches in the second right rib. In addition, 1-1/4 inches before the anterior tip of the second rib there was a transveral compression.

The two humeri with the two cubitus and radii were submitted and not remarkable. Similarly, both femurs, both tibias and fibulas were also submitted. The bones of the extremities showed no abnormalities except for a defect in the distal portion of the left tibia extending up to the articular surface and measured one inch in the virtucal dimension and 1-1/4 inches anteroposteriorly. The length of the humeri was 11-1/2 inches each. The length of both femurs was 16-1/2 inches. The length of the tibia was 13-3/4 inches. Also submitted were the seven cervical vertebrae, the five lumbar vertebrae and the eleven thoracic vertebrae. None of the certebrae submitted showed any abnormalities. In addition, multiple bones of the hands and feet were submitted and were not remarkable. The central portion and the two wings of the hyoid bone were identified and intact.

Lab results: Opiate -- bone marrow=negative

Opinion: It is my opinion that the cause and manner of death of the decedent, unidentified skeletal remains of a Hispanic female, is undetermined.

 
After reading this I wonder if princess had cleft palate and lip which was repaired. This could account for the non fusion of the jaw and hard palate. When a cleft is repaired they correct the mucous membrane in the nasal cavity and mouth, but they do not re-connect the bone because it is still growing. As for the teeth caries are tooth decay, so teeth 2, 6, 19, 20, 29 and 30 had decay or cavities, but only 14 and 18 had a fillings. At least that's the way I understand it.

caries

Type: Term

Pronunciation: kār′ēz

Definitions:
1. Microbial destruction or necrosis of teeth.
http://www.medilexicon.com/medicaldictionary.php?t=14554
 
RKnowley, I totally understand where you are coming from trying to make heads or tails of this report. I shorthanded the info on the teeth and provided links and a dental chart/dental eruption chart.

http://www.ada.org/public/topics/permanent_number.asp


  1. 3rd Molar (wisdom tooth)
  2. 2nd Molar (12-yr molar)
  3. 1st Molar (6-yr molar)
  4. 2nd Bicuspid (2nd premolar)
  5. 1st Bicuspid (1st premolar)
  6. Cuspid (canine/eye tooth)
  7. Lateral incisor
  8. Central incisor
  9. Central incisor
  10. Lateral incisor
  11. Cuspid (canine/eye tooth)
  12. 1st Bicuspid (1st premolar)
  13. 2nd Bicuspid (2nd premolar)
  14. 1st Molar (6-yr molar)
  15. 2nd Molar (12-yr molar)
  16. 3rd Molar (wisdom tooth)
  17. 3rd Molar (wisdom tooth)
  18. 2nd Molar (12-yr molar)
  19. 1st Molar (6-yr molar)
  20. 2nd Bicuspid (2nd premolar)
  21. 1st Bicuspid (1st premolar)
  22. Cuspid (canine/eye tooth)
  23. Lateral incisor
  24. Central incisor
  25. Central incisor
  26. Lateral incisor
  27. Cuspid (canine/eye tooth)
  28. 1st Bicuspid (1st premolar)
  29. 2nd Bicuspid (2nd premolar)
  30. 1st Molar (6-yr molar)
  31. 2nd Molar (12-yr molar)
  32. 3rd Molar (wisdom tooth)
http://www.ada.org/public/topics/tooth_eruption.asp

Teeth vary in size, shape and their location in the jaws. These differences enable teeth to work together to help you chew, speak and smile. They also help give your face its shape and form.
At birth people usually have 20 primary (baby) teeth, which often erupt about six months of age. They are then shed at various times throughout childhood. By age 21, all 32 of the permanent teeth have usually erupted.
Return to Top
spacer_gray.gif

spacer_topic_public.gif
Additional Resources
Eruption Animation
Eruption Charts
Primary Teeth Eruption Chart
chart_eruption_primary.gif

Permanent Teeth Eruption Chart
chart_eruption_permanent.gif


From the original ME's report dated circa 9/90. My comments are in blue.:
spacer.gif
permanent_number_chart.jpg


"teeth 1, 17 and 32 (wisdom teeth) were present and unerupted."

There is no mention that any of the 3 wisdom teeth were impacted, and that none had yet erupted indicates Princess died between the ages of 17 and 21. There are exceptions to this, and I think someone may have posted here that their wisdom teeth didn't erupt until the age of 24. This would be more of an exception.



Tooth 16 was absent. The corresponding alveolar spavce was totally obliterated by mature bone tissue.

That there was mature (fully formed) bone tissue filling the gap where (wisdom) tooth 16 should have been, the tooth was perhaps either taken out a significant time prior to death or it had never formed.

Okay, I will try and keep it as simple as possible from now on. "?" means the tooth was not mentioned either way. This report seems to lack detail in that some teeth are not even mentioned. It is inconsistent concerning the condition of all of the teeth. Some teeth are describes as, "present", yet we don't know what condition they may have been in. I assume that if there was anything outstanding it would hopefully have been mentioned.

Tooth Numbers

1. present-wisdom tooth-unerupted.

2. present-large carries

3. present-good condition

4. present-good condition

5. absent-but this occurred after death, so a missing report would not list tooth 5 as missing.

6. present-large carries

7. ?

8. ?

9. present-fractured tip after death, so this would not have been on a missing report

10. absent-was surgically removed prior to death. The gap in the bone was partially filled in with new bone, and this indicates that the dental procedure was possibly performed a few months to a year prior to Princess's death from my recollection of such things. I am unsure of exactly how long it takes for bone to grow into the alveolar space once a tooth of that size is removed. So, please don't quote me on that.

11. ?

12. ?

13. ?

14. present-small filling

15. ?

16. ?

17. present-wisdom tooth-unerupted

18. present-small filling

19. present-large carries

20. present-large carries

21. present

22. present

23. present

24. present

25. present

26. present

27. present

28. present

29. present-small carries

30. present-good condition, except that the tooth had black discoloration indicative of a possible small carries

31. present-good condition

32. present-wisdom tooth-unerupted

Lion

 
After reading this I wonder if princess had cleft palate and lip which was repaired. This could account for the non fusion of the jaw and hard palate. When a cleft is repaired they correct the mucous membrane in the nasal cavity and mouth, but they do not re-connect the bone because it is still growing. As for the teeth caries are tooth decay, so teeth 2, 6, 19, 20, 29 and 30 had decay or cavities, but only 14 and 18 had a fillings. At least that's the way I understand it.

caries

Type: Term

Pronunciation: kār′ēz

Definitions:
1. Microbial destruction or necrosis of teeth.
http://www.medilexicon.com/medicaldictionary.php?t=14554

Hi there Spazkat:). I think you are referring to statement below from the original report.

The right and left sides of the upper jaw were not still fused as was not the transversal suture of the hard palate.

The Doctor mentioned the two facial skeletal areas that were still not fused because it indicates her estimated age at date of death. That both areas are still not yet fused means that she was young. In fact these aspects of her skeletal structure helped along with her unerupted wisdom teeth and the development state/condition of her long bones to determine her approximate age at date of death. It is normal for those bones not to be fused in a young person. It can be confusing, though.

Lion
 
Hi there Spazkat:). I think you are referring to statement below from the original report.



The Doctor mentioned the two facial skeletal areas that were still not fused because it indicates her estimated age at date of death. That both areas are still not yet fused means that she was young. In fact these aspects of her skeletal structure helped along with her unerupted wisdom teeth and the development state/condition of her long bones to determine her approximate age at date of death. It is normal for those bones not to be fused in a young person. It can be confusing, though.

Lion

No disrespect but, it's not normal with respect to the hard palate it should fuse in utero, by 9 or 10 weeks if I remember correctly, if it does not fuse not you are born with a cleft palate. There are two types I will call open and closed. An open cleft which you are probably familiar with from groups like operation smile is visible. A closed (sub-mucous) cleft is only of the bone structure and may have no outwardly visible signs. They can go easily undiagnosed unless they cause a problem like VPI (velopharyngeal insufficiency). Some people may also have a split uvula or a notch on the roof of their mouth but not always. I studied this pretty extensively in a class covering articulation disorders, I going to be a speech pathologist eventually. As for the wisdom teeth I'm 30 and I still have not gotten mine, and my dentist says that is actually becoming more common.
 
OK, so I was correct and the autopsy only lists two fillings. I guess I wasn't missing anything, lol
 
Yes, only teeth #14 and #18 were reported to have had amalgum fillings. She had 5 or 6 teeth with carries that were not treated.

Tooth #10 was surgically removed prior to death, so it could be a good marker along with the other two teeth with carries. She may have had fillings, chips, or carries in any of the teeth not mentioned. But, we just don't know.

Lion
 
Thank you Lion,
Did we ever rule out Misty Mock as a possible for Princess Blue (I don't recall what became of her as a possible)? I think I read that Misty had 13 fillings and that is why I was wondering about how many fillings Princess Blue had. I also read that Misty loved jewelry.

ETA: Misty Mock had a chipped front tooth according to her doenetwork information here: http://doenetwork.org/cases/487dfwa.html. It says Misty was a smoker. Would they have been able to tell if Princess Blue was a smoker by looking at her teeth??

Yes, only teeth #14 and #18 were reported to have had amalgum fillings. She had 5 or 6 teeth with carries that were not treated.

Tooth #10 was surgically removed prior to death, so it could be a good marker along with the other two teeth with carries. She may have had fillings, chips, or carries in any of the teeth not mentioned. But, we just don't know.

Lion
 
Yes, only teeth #14 and #18 were reported to have had amalgum fillings. She had 5 or 6 teeth with carries that were not treated.

Tooth #10 was surgically removed prior to death, so it could be a good marker along with the other two teeth with carries. She may have had fillings, chips, or carries in any of the teeth not mentioned. But, we just don't know.

Lion

Good morning dear Lion! Just wanted to add a little something to your post regarding age of eruption for wisdom teeth. The appropriate age range is 15-25 yrs. Some people never have their wisdom teeth erupt whilst others experience eruption over the course of several years. I would not narrow an age range beneath 25 yrs for this reason alone.

This poor girl either didnt practice good dental care or didnt have access to appropriate dentists. The concentration of molar carries on the lower left hand portion of her mouth leads me to speculate wether or not she was left handed. People tend to chew along their dominate side. Its and interesting thought anyway.
 
No disrespect but, it's not normal with respect to the hard palate it should fuse in utero, by 9 or 10 weeks if I remember correctly, if it does not fuse not you are born with a cleft palate. There are two types I will call open and closed. An open cleft which you are probably familiar with from groups like operation smile is visible. A closed (sub-mucous) cleft is only of the bone structure and may have no outwardly visible signs. They can go easily undiagnosed unless they cause a problem like VPI (velopharyngeal insufficiency). Some people may also have a split uvula or a notch on the roof of their mouth but not always. I studied this pretty extensively in a class covering articulation disorders, I going to be a speech pathologist eventually. As for the wisdom teeth I'm 30 and I still have not gotten mine, and my dentist says that is actually becoming more common.

Spazkat, I understand that the hard palate forms in utero in early pregnancy. But, that the transverse palatine suture (Dr. Bellas called it the transversal suture of the hard palate--same thing) had not yet fused was likely normal and in no way indicated that she had a cleft palate. The transverse palatine suture (TP) runs across (side to side) the roof of the mouth and is located towards the back of the roof of the mouth.

Those with any one or variation of the four basic types of cleft palate have an actual opening into the nasal cavity that runs from front to back. Here is a link to an online dental book with a diagram of the sutures in the roof of the mouth (dental sutures). The diagram of the dental sutures is on page 25.

http://tinyurl.com/2aqpkg

The palatine (bones) processes are what form the hard palate, and it is the intermaxillary suture that runs from front to back which is present between the palatine processes. Cleft palate occurs when the palatine processes on one or both sides fail to develop properly. In that case there wouldn't be an intermaxillary suture or it would be incomplete (different from not fused yet).

This is because in terms of anatomy a suture (which only occurs in the head) refers to an area of fibrous tissue where two bones or bony processes meet. Eventually, often over many years the suture fuses to become solid bone. Here is a link and some info from the link on estimating age at DOD from the hard palate. It states that by young adulthood there is activity (fusion has begun but is not complete) concerning the transverse palatine suture.

http://www.redwoods.edu/Instruct/AGarwin/anth_6_age.htm
Obtaining An Age Estimate From The Hard Palate

Sutures of the hard palate should be scored across their entire length. The left incisive suture should be scored rather than the right, if both segments are observable. Figure B (above) illustrates the location of each suture segment.
11. Incisive Suture. (IN) Separates maxilla (with canines, premolars and molars) from premaxilla (incisors only).
12. Anterior Median Palatine Suture. (AMP) Score entire length on paired maxillae between incisive foramen and palatine bone.
13. Posterior Median Palatine Suture. (PMP) Score entire length on paired palatine bones.
14. Transverse Palatine Suture. (TP) Score entire length between maxillae and palatine bones.
Mann (et al. 1987) outlines the technique for obtaining an age estimate from the palate. By young adulthood, the incisive (IN) suture has already closed, with activity evident within the transverse palatine (TP) and posterior median palatine (PMP) segments. Closure of IN, TP, and PMP, with the anterior median palatine (AMP) remaining at least partially open, are characteristic of middle adulthood. Complete fusion is typical of older adults.

I think that if Princess Blue had a cleft palate it would have been easily recognized and included in both reports (1990 and 2007). The examiners may not have been able to know if it was a submucous cleft palate because only skeletal remains were available for examination.

But, they would have easily detected a cleft palate of any kind because apparently the palatine bones were present. Otherwise they wouldn't have seen that the TP suture between those bones had not yet fused. Even in the updated information based in part on the forensics examination completed in 2007 no mention is made of any anomalies of the hard palate. I don't think she had cleft palate.

Lion
 
Good morning dear Lion! Just wanted to add a little something to your post regarding age of eruption for wisdom teeth. The appropriate age range is 15-25 yrs. Some people never have their wisdom teeth erupt whilst others experience eruption over the course of several years. I would not narrow an age range beneath 25 yrs for this reason alone.

This poor girl either didnt practice good dental care or didnt have access to appropriate dentists. The concentration of molar carries on the lower left hand portion of her mouth leads me to speculate wether or not she was left handed. People tend to chew along their dominate side. Its and interesting thought anyway.

Hi Chloekins. It is great to, "see" you, and I hope all is going well with you. When I commented that because Princess's 3 remaining wisdom teeth had not yet erupted it indicated that she was from between 17-21 at date of death, I didn't mean that I believed that for that reason only. Although, after re-reading my post, #451, I can see how you or others might think that. I should have clarified my thoughts.

I should have included that because from two separate examinations, the first performed by Dr. Eduardo Bellas in 1990, and the second by a team of forensic scientists which was completed in March of 2007, both estimated her age at date of death to be nearly identical.

So, when trying to make heads or tails of the dental info for RKnowley, I commented about her unerupted wisdom teeth indicating her age at DOD. Perhaps I should instead have said that because her 3 remaining wisdom teeth had not yet erupted it helped indicate Princess's age at date of death, along with other aspects of the two examinations (the degrees of fusion of various sutures, whether or not there was epiphyseal fusion of the plates in various bones, including the long bones and the collar bones, etc..)

Dr. Eduardo estimated Princess's age at DOD as from between 16-22, while the team of forensic scientists estimated her age at DOD to be from between 17-21. Because two separate entities estimated Princess's age at date of death may indicate that there was reliable information within her remains for both to have come up with a similar age range.

In my post #451, it is indicated on the diagram that wisdom teeth erupt from between the ages of 17-21. Here is another link to a site that supports this. http://www.anthro4n6.net/forensics/

I am not saying that your statement that it is more accurate that wisdom teeth erupt from between 15-25 is not true. But, I wonder if both statements have truth to them. For example the average gestation period for dogs is estimated to be between 58-72 days. Yet, it has also been estimated to be between 60-65 days.

The majority of dogs whelp their puppies at between 60-65 days of gestation; however, anywhere from between 58-72 days is possible and does occur.

It does seem that Princess didn't have good dental care prior to her death. If she chewed primarily on the left side of her mouth I wonder if it possible that there was pain on the right side of her mouth. It is common for people to do this when one side of the mouth is painful, and Princess's dental condition was not very good overall, so it may be possible.

Lion
 
Lion, I agree with you. There was more information that supported the age Princess Blue was (between 17-21 or 16-22) when she died than just the non-erupted wisdom teeth. There was the two scapula as well as the hip bones were submitted and the fusion between the first sacral vertebra with the sacrum was incomplete in the anterior portion. the configuration of the three bones of the pelvis were consistent with female-type and the symphysis pubis with numerous pits alternating with the elevations which suggested a very young person. and the fusion of the iliac crests of the hip bones was partial in some areas. At least I think those items suggest that she was very young.

I also agree that Princess Blue may have had pain on the right side of her mouth and she chewed her food on the left side for that reason.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Members online

Online statistics

Members online
88
Guests online
1,639
Total visitors
1,727

Forum statistics

Threads
606,658
Messages
18,207,719
Members
233,922
Latest member
Senor710
Back
Top