The Fall Of Kabul To The Taliban #2

[Dawookie]

Excerpts from the actual call, which took place on JULY 23RD (!!) from the link in the reuters article:

"GHANI: Of course, Mr. President, such a pleasure to hear your voice.

BIDEN: You know, I am a moment late. But I mean it sincerely. Hey look, I want to make it clear that I am not a military man any more than you are, but I have been meeting with our Pentagon folks, and our national security people, as you have with ours and yours, and as you know and I need not tell you the perception around the world and in parts of Afghanistan, I believe, is that things aren’t going well in terms of the fight against the Taliban. And there’s a need, whether it is true or not, there is a need to project a different picture."

Excerpts of call between Joe Biden and Ashraf Ghani July 23

Holy moly, I hope the leaker is in a titanium bunker somewhere. jmo

After reading that, I'm at a loss for words. He promised close air support yet then pulled that support, which led to the collapse and the Taliban taking the country over. Everyone knew how bad the situation was and there was no to change that perception. This just reinforces how incompetent the decision making was during all of this and how different things could have been if the right decisions had been made. Theyve been warned for years what would happen if we pulled out abruptly and surprise surprise, they were right. The list of bad decisions made during all of this is laughingly horrible.

 

[sds71]

I can't even with the innocent animals. But thanks for posting. I feel like it is a great personal weakness and failing of mine that I'm so unable to handle animal cruelty that I can't do my part other than to take good care of my own personal rescue animals. I can't even go to the shelter to get them. I have to have them sent to me. Thank you for being stronger <3

At least Peg made it out and gets to enjoy retirement with his parents.

 

[KALI]

Thank you our soldiers.
As for the Taliban being upset???
Best news all week.
But, I'm still an unhappy camper.

Taliban fighters upset, feel betrayed that US military left non-working helicopters: report

A U.S. Department of Defense spokesperson told Fox News on Wednesday that "we disabled/demilitarized that equipment at Hamid Karzai International Airport prior to our departure."

 

[KALI]

I am God smacked. This is a very big deal. A very big deal.
The loved ones of our service dead must be reeling.

After reading that, I'm at a loss for words. He promised close air support yet then pulled that support, which led to the collapse and the Taliban taking the country over. Everyone knew how bad the situation was and there was no to change that perception. This just reinforces how incompetent the decision making was during all of this and how different things could have been if the right decisions had been made. Theyve been warned for years what would happen if we pulled out abruptly and surprise surprise, they were right. The list of bad decisions made during all of this is laughingly horrible.

 

[Dawookie]

I am God smacked. This is a very big deal. A very big deal.
The loved ones of our service dead must be reeling.

Yeah it's pretty bad. Everyone is claiming to be how shocked the country fell but intelligence people have been saying for a decade this is exactly what would happen if we pulled out to fast. Pulling the air support during the busiest fighting season is probably the single biggest reason the they got over ran. We should have waited until the winter when the fighting dies down and allow the ANA to adjust and plan ahead of time. Abandoning Bagram was a huge mistake. Announcing a date and then abruptly moving it up was another huge mistake which led to all the panic and the need for evacuations. It was just one bad decision after another and 13 service members lost their lives needlessly

 

[Skigh]

Taliban display suicide vests and IEDs in weapon parade on Afghan state TV | Daily Mail Online

 

[worldwatcher]

Just to put things in perspective:

Why the will to fight was lacking in the Afghan army

“An Afghan soldier risks his life for his salary, literally. Only in my period of several months have twelve Afghans died in my small unit; compare that with the twenty-five Dutch people who died in total in the Uruzgan years. The Afghans came from all over the country, were far from their families and were on leave once every six months; then they had to be lucky that there was just a flight to their house. These men often received little or no salary. And it has remained that way.”

While there was still enough money?

“Yes, but that money comes in at the top of a ministry. Then everyone skims off their share, so that in the end there is nothing left for soldiers. We call that corruption..... "

Waarom de wil om te vechten ontbrak bij het Afghaanse leger

You can't judge a book by the cover.
Just a random paragraph - translated from an ex soldier, who was interviewed on this matter.

 

[shotgun09]

Has anyone seen videos of Americans returning home after being evacuated from Afghanistan? Seems like the media would be all over that to support the claims of how many were evacuated. I haven't seen any at all. Seems very weird. jmo

Come to think of it, I haven't seen an ounce of media coverage on the returning home of American citizens. Not one picture of relieved families greeting and celebrating at an airport, or any other scene. Not one welcome home sign or balloon. It is all very odd.
Considering now the ever changing and non-exact number of Americans 'rescued' vs those stranded , by the State Department and DOD ..this just raises more questions.

 

[Only4Justice]

After reading that, I'm at a loss for words. He promised close air support yet then pulled that support, which led to the collapse and the Taliban taking the country over. Everyone knew how bad the situation was and there was no to change that perception. This just reinforces how incompetent the decision making was during all of this and how different things could have been if the right decisions had been made. Theyve been warned for years what would happen if we pulled out abruptly and surprise surprise, they were right. The list of bad decisions made during all of this is laughingly horrible.

when will someone be held accountable? “Gafstan” is quickly fading from any news outlet….

 

[shotgun09]

when will someone be held accountable? “Gafstan” is quickly fading from any news outlet….

Exactly! I too find that the MSM news outlets are in the "shhh" mode now when it comes to Afghanistan.
Stranded citizens ? The refugee status and whereabouts? The questionable failures that were noted non-stop for three weeks ? Why the sudden stop of reporting on the situation? There is certainly (and thankfully ) some information seeping throughout social media. I keep an eye on both, to stay informed.

 

[sds71]

Families with students in an El Cajon school district who where stranded in Afghanistan amid the Taliban’s takeover spoke Thursday about their experience escaping the country…

Community liaisons with the district are still in communication with the one family left in Afghanistan.

According to Dr. David Miyashiro, superintendent for the Cajon Valley Union School District, there areother California students stranded in Afghanistan. He said he hopes the government can help the thousands of families currently stranded in there.

Local families share stories of escape from Afghanistan | FOX 5 San Diego

 

[Skigh]

Resettling Afghan refugees will cost British taxpayer £2.5billion | Daily Mail Online

 

[ringbearer]

Just to put things in perspective:

Why the will to fight was lacking in the Afghan army

“An Afghan soldier risks his life for his salary, literally. Only in my period of several months have twelve Afghans died in my small unit; compare that with the twenty-five Dutch people who died in total in the Uruzgan years. The Afghans came from all over the country, were far from their families and were on leave once every six months; then they had to be lucky that there was just a flight to their house. These men often received little or no salary. And it has remained that way.”

While there was still enough money?

“Yes, but that money comes in at the top of a ministry. Then everyone skims off their share, so that in the end there is nothing left for soldiers. We call that corruption..... "

Waarom de wil om te vechten ontbrak bij het Afghaanse leger

You can't judge a book by the cover.
Just a random paragraph - translated from an ex soldier, who was interviewed on this matter.

On the other hand, I've heard the Afghan Army referred to as a "jobs program" for Afghans and, according to the excerpt from Biden's convo with Ghani at the link I posted above, they did get paid, but wanted more. For example, I'm linking an article showing that an Afghan mechanic was making $1300/mo. back in 2013 and was complaining about getting laid off without notice. The second link says that, at around that same time, the average ANNUAL per capita income in Afghanistan was $410. So he had been making more than three times the average ANNUAL income in one MONTH. The links are from roughly ten years ago, because that's the time that Ghani referenced in his convo with Biden as the time since Afghan troops hadn't gotten a raise. The median per capita income in Afghanistan has gone down to $378 since then (also linked below)

Afghans on U.S. bases losing jobs after years of devoted service

Fears of the Future Haunt a Budding Generation of Afghan Strivers (Published 2013).

Median Income By Country 2021

Also, like anyone who takes a job just for the paycheck, imo, their underlying mindset does not necessarily change. As @Arkay posted in a link above, Afghan boys and men are trained from a young age almost exclusively in the religion of Islam and military fighting. Imo, just because they're were getting paid by the US and others to fight, doesn't mean they abandon what they are indoctrinated with-- which includes, imo, a hatred of Western culture, Westerners and the American troops in Afghanistan. Especially if their perception (or the reality) was, that they were being treated poorly by the US and its allies. Indeed, it seems quite unlikely to me that they would change their mindset since that's the entire point of indoctrination.

From the biden convo linked above:

GHANI: * * * And third, regarding procedure for the rest of the assistance, for instance, military pay is not increased for over a decade. We need to make some gestures to rally everybody together so if you could assign the national security advisor or the Pentagon, anyone you wish to work with us on the details, so our expectations particularly regarding your close air support.


Yes, the Afghans Hate Us

 

[shotgun09]

Afghan women report forced marriages to flee country amid Taliban takeover, sources say - CNNPolitics

"(CNN)US officials processing Afghan refugees abroad recently alerted the State Department to instances in which women and girls were forced into marriage or arrived with male partners posing as their husbands to be eligible for evacuation and escape the Taliban, according to two sources familiar with the matter.

The incidents described by sources to CNN were revealed while Afghans were at a transit hub abroad. They underscore the desperation among Afghans to flee the country after the Taliban takeover -- and the fear of what their rule might mean for women and girls.
It's unclear how widespread the issue is, but it prompted enough concern for US diplomats in the United Arab Emirates to send a cable."

"The sources said that some Afghan women and girls housed at one of the evacuation centers in the UAE reported that their families had forced them into marriage outside of the airport in Kabul so they could escape the country as the Taliban seized power. In some reported instances, families paid men eligible for evacuation thousands of dollars to marry or pose as husbands for women to flee."

 

[shotgun09]

Information from BBC news via twitter:
BBM

"Islamic State group (IS) has offered more details about the suicide bomber of the Kabul airport attack of 26 August, saying he had only recently walked free from an unidentified prison when the former Afghan government collapsed. For more follow
@Minalami"

https://twitter.com/BBCYaldaHakim/status/1433708670215409669

So, the taliban...you know...the one's we ( U.S.) are working with now, by supporting their new government. (with equipment, weapons, ammo and $$)...let these prisoners go.

 

[dotr]

Afghan women report forced marriages to flee country amid Taliban takeover, sources say - CNNPolitics

"(CNN)US officials processing Afghan refugees abroad recently alerted the State Department to instances in which women and girls were forced into marriage or arrived with male partners posing as their husbands to be eligible for evacuation and escape the Taliban, according to two sources familiar with the matter.

The incidents described by sources to CNN were revealed while Afghans were at a transit hub abroad. They underscore the desperation among Afghans to flee the country after the Taliban takeover -- and the fear of what their rule might mean for women and girls.
It's unclear how widespread the issue is, but it prompted enough concern for US diplomats in the United Arab Emirates to send a cable."

"The sources said that some Afghan women and girls housed at one of the evacuation centers in the UAE reported that their families had forced them into marriage outside of the airport in Kabul so they could escape the country as the Taliban seized power. In some reported instances, families paid men eligible for evacuation thousands of dollars to marry or pose as husbands for women to flee."

Wondering if Texas is supposed to be receiving a large number of female Taliban refugees - lately there seems to be a bunch of memes showing women clad in black niqabs in Texas?

 

[otto]

Inquiring minds want to know what else was said in the conversation where "perception" rather than "reality" was the USA goal as the Taliban took control of Afghanistan.

"Biden focused much of the call on Ghani's 'perception problem.'

'I need not tell you the perception around the world and in parts of Afghanistan, I believe, is that things are not going well in terms of the fight against the Taliban,' Biden said. 'And there is a need, whether it is true or not, there is a need to project a different picture.'

In a phone call transcript obtained by Reuters, Biden said the US would provide aid if Ghani could project to the world that he had a 'plan' for fighting the Taliban, while the Afghan army was being overrun.

'We will continue to provide close air support, if we know what the plan is,' Biden said.

'I´m not telling you what that plan should precisely look like, you´re going to get not only more help, but you´re going to get a perception that is going to change in terms of how, um..... our allies and folks here in the States and other places think you're doing.'
...

Ghani, meanwhile, relayed a sense of urgency to the US president.

'We are facing a full-scale invasion, composed of Taliban, full Pakistani planning and logistical support, and at least 10-15,000 international terrorists, predominantly Pakistanis thrown into this,' Ghani said.

'We need to move with speed.'

Ghani told Biden he believed there could be peace if he could 'rebalance the military solution.'

The Afghan president fled the country, sending his government into collapse, three weeks later, and the Taliban subsequently took Kabul.
​

Republicans demand White House release transcript of Biden's bombshell call with Ghani | Daily Mail Online

​

 

[worldwatcher]

On the other hand, I've heard the Afghan Army referred to as a "jobs program" for Afghans and, according to the excerpt from Biden's convo with Ghani at the link I posted above, they did get paid, but wanted more. For example, I'm linking an article showing that an Afghan mechanic was making $1300/mo. back in 2013 and was complaining about getting laid off without notice. The second link says that, at around that same time, the average ANNUAL per capita income in Afghanistan was $410. So he had been making more than three times the average ANNUAL income in one MONTH.

Afghans on U.S. bases losing jobs after years of devoted service

Fears of the Future Haunt a Budding Generation of Afghan Strivers (Published 2013).

Also, like anyone who takes a job just for the paycheck, imo, their underlying mindset does not necessarily change. As @Arkay posted in a link above, Afghan boys and men are trained from a young age almost exclusively in the religion of Islam and military fighting. Imo, just because they're were getting paid by the US and others to fight, doesn't mean they abandon what they are indoctrinated with-- which includes, imo, a hatred of Western culture, Westerners and the American troops in Afghanistan. Especially if their perception (or the reality) was, that they were being treated poorly by the US and its allies. Indeed, it seems quite unlikely to me that they would change their mindset since that's the entire point of indoctrination.

From the biden convo linked above:

GHANI: * * * And third, regarding procedure for the rest of the assistance, for instance, military pay is not increased for over a decade. We need to make some gestures to rally everybody together so if you could assign the national security advisor or the Pentagon, anyone you wish to work with us on the details, so our expectations particularly regarding your close air support.


Yes, the Afghans Hate Us

Maybe there was a difference in the incomes for mechanics and soldiers.
The interview from a Dutch soldier that I posted was specifically about soldiers.

As we all know, the Middle East has always been very tricky/complicated hard to understand for us as, the Western World.

"The goal of political stability in Afghanistan was too ambitious, says Kamminga. "It started with 9/11. Then came an anti-terrorism response from the Americans. Within a few months, that expanded into an ambitious state-building project with democracy, the rule of law and you name it. The policy had to be centrally regulated, while it never existed. in Afghanistan. That was a bridge too far. We should have been much more humble and focused on reconciling certain groups and tribes." As a result, tens of thousands have been killed in the conflict over the past 20 years, especially among the Afghan population. Nearly 2,500 American soldiers were killed. The war cost the lives of 25 Dutch soldiers."
GT

Source Nederlandse missie in Afghanistan na 20 jaar ten einde; wat is er bereikt? | NU - Het laatste nieuws het eerst op NU.nl

A never ending story, imo

 

[ringbearer]

Maybe there was a difference in the incomes for mechanics and soldiers.
The interview from a Dutch soldier that I posted was specifically about soldiers.

As we all know, the Middle East has always been very tricky/complicated hard to understand for us as, the Western World.

"The goal of political stability in Afghanistan was too ambitious, says Kamminga. "It started with 9/11. Then came an anti-terrorism response from the Americans. Within a few months, that expanded into an ambitious state-building project with democracy, the rule of law and you name it. The policy had to be centrally regulated, while it never existed. in Afghanistan. That was a bridge too far. We should have been much more humble and focused on reconciling certain groups and tribes." As a result, tens of thousands have been killed in the conflict over the past 20 years, especially among the Afghan population. Nearly 2,500 American soldiers were killed. The war cost the lives of 25 Dutch soldiers."
GT

Source Nederlandse missie in Afghanistan na 20 jaar ten einde; wat is er bereikt? | NU - Het laatste nieuws het eerst op NU.nl

A never ending story, imo

According to this, the soldiers made $1,873/year in 2012. Still more than 4 times that of the Afghan per capita average. Plus, they got training, food and shelter for free.

"Still, a close look at U.S. military statistics shows that Afghan soldiers and police officers are far more expensive than you'd expect. They are paid an average of just $1,872 a year, but the overall cost of training and fielding a police officer is roughly $30,000 per year, while the cost of each soldier is nearly $46,000 per year. the United States bears virtually all of those costs, adding up to more than $3.5 billion a year."
The U.S. Spends $14K per Afghan Troop per Year, but Each Earns $1,872

At the end of the day, I think every other country that has ever tried to control Afghanistan, including the US, and now China (imo), has been in it for the resources, i.e., $$$ Period. jmo

 

[sds71]

@JacquiHeinrich

Secretary of State Blinken did not answer whether any Americans have gotten out of Afghanistan since US troops withdrew - instead saying "We are in regular contact with the small number of citizens who remain, providing them with tailored specific guidance..."

3:09 PM · Sep 3, 2021·Twitter Web App