The Flashlight.....

[Chrishope]

BBM...Remember the "clever little clues"" comment? JR also repeatedly kept himself distanced from admission of the flashlight being his with certainty. And, doesn't it make sense that with locked doors on the main floor, an intruder would have had to use that broken window as an access point? For a while the window with the hole in it looked plausible, even to Lou Smit. I have no doubt that in any conversation the R's had with him, there would have been every attempt made to cleverly suggest the broken window should get greater investigation. Once Lou Smit made the pronouncement of possibility of an intruder, the seed was not only planted but watered and fertilized. Let's remember too, that one of the first suspects offered up was LHP, and she would have satisfied the "it's an inside job" comment as well as being someone who would have known how to use the broken window to make an entry (or have someone else use the window...like her husband). Pretty handy to have a personal employee to blame who needed money, who was known to think of JB as a bit bratty, who wondered if the R's might not be worried about something happening to her because she was allowed to be outside in the neighborhood playing alone at the age of 6, who would have known about the basement layout, and who also was actually able to identify the flashlight as belonging to the R's.

Yes, it makes sense that the window would have to be used if the doors were locked. It also makes sense that someone with a key could have entered and locked up when they left.

JR claims all the doors were locked, eliminating the possibility of someone coming through an unlocked door. That only leaves someone with a key, or someone coming through the basement window.

But, since the grate is in place and the web intact, the idea that someone came through the window makes no sense.

If there was an intruder, he/she used a key to enter and the window really was broken months earlier. If it's RDI (and it is) then JR made up the story about breaking the window himself to cover the fact that the window couldn't have been the entry point. That still leaves someone with a key as a possibility.

 

[DeeDee249]

She was hit in the head with a baseball bat not a flash light. Someone saw a picture of it next to her head before the crime scene was ever shown to the public. The killer put it on the internet and removed it, before the police could see it. At the bottom of the picture were 6 symbols like some sort of a cipher ?

It has never been determined exactly what she was bashed with. No weapon was positively identified as the murder weapon. The flashlight was completely wiped inside and out- that makes it a prime candidate in my mind. Although the Rs tried to say it wasn't theirs at first (because it was dirty???- aka fingerprint powder) Patsy had to admit to police when show a photo of the EMPTY drawer where she admitted theirs was kept that it could have been theirs.

 

[Anti-K]

Since the Rs admit to owning one like it, and since there is only one like it in the house, not two, we can be pretty sure the Rs own it.

How do you know it was the only one like it in the house?

Consider that Thomas opined that the flashlight belonged to a BPD officer.

To clarify: I am not arguing that the flashlight did not belong to the Ramseys. I’m disagreeing with the claim that we can say it did “with a great deal of certainty.”
...

AK

 

[Anti-K]

I'd agree that if there were an intruder, he'd have brought his own FL. One of the many problems with IDI theory is that there are not two large maglites, as there would be had the intruder brought one and failed to take it with him.

Wiping the batteries isn't the only connection between the FL and the crime. Wiping the outside is also a connection. As you say, the Rs would have no reason to wipe the batteries;if they were wiped, that supports an intruder theory. Additionally the Rs have no reason to wipe prints from the outside of the FL anymore than wiping their prints off all the doorknobs in the house. But a Ramsey perp might have a reason to wipe the outside to remove forensics, other than prints.

I agree that if a Ramsey had staged the scene to appear as if the intruder brought his own FL, then the Ramsey in question would certainly deny outright that it belonged to them. Again this is problematic in that there are not two similar lights. I also agree, in general, that they wouldn't have claimed all the doors were locked, if they wanted to push an intruder theory. The exception of course is that a different entry point might already have been partially staged (the basement window) and would be hard to explain if the perp had simply come in through an unlocked door. (IOWs, Doc's theory)

I think the flashlight could be wiped simply through handling depending on who and how and when and what conditions, etc; that there could be innocent explanations for it appearing as if it had been wiped and innocent explanations for it being wiped. I know I’ve wiped my flashlights, especially after using one to assist in a dirty job.

But, if the batteries are wiped – that’s a different story.
.

As an aside: Docg’s theory, although cleverly argued, is heavily flawed. It is so bad that not even RDI accept it. I’ve discussed it and many other things with Docg several times off and on over a period of several years on at least three different forums, long before he had his blog. I am not impressed with him, and I am not impressed with his theory. But, he is clever. And, I believe sincere.
...

AK

 

[Anti-K]

Yes, it makes sense that the window would have to be used if the doors were locked. It also makes sense that someone with a key could have entered and locked up when they left.

JR claims all the doors were locked, eliminating the possibility of someone coming through an unlocked door. That only leaves someone with a key, or someone coming through the basement window.

But, since the grate is in place and the web intact, the idea that someone came through the window makes no sense.

If there was an intruder, he/she used a key to enter and the window really was broken months earlier. If it's RDI (and it is) then JR made up the story about breaking the window himself to cover the fact that the window couldn't have been the entry point. That still leaves someone with a key as a possibility.

Well, not exactly.

I assume you’re referencing Docg’s argument re: the basement window. Here’s one (of a few) problems with it: iirc, Docg has Mr Ramsey do some preliminary window staging, but Mrs Ramsey calls the police before he can finish it. So, he dashes off with minutes to spare, and he un-stages his staging (magically picks up the glass without disturbing any of the other debris, and vanishes it) and then – even though he has now un-staged his staged entry point, essentially leaving the intruder with no means of entry – he tells the police that all the doors were locked!!

Good grief.

Incidentally, there are other ways of entry besides the window or a key. For example, he could have used an electronic device to open the garage door, or enter it via stealth as it is opened for the Ramsey car, and through there into the house (the door between was usually unlocked); he could have entered through an unlocked door and simply locked it behind him when he left (iirc, the front door automatically locked upon closing); he could have bumped a lock; he could ahev entered through the basement window days or weeks ahead of time and prepared an entry in advance....
...

AK

 

[gramcracker]

Consider that Thomas opined that the flashlight belonged to a BPD officer.

I will have to consider that wishful thinking, unless there is a link to an interview where ST says that. because in his book, demonstrating fairness and an open mind, what he does state is that there are only three possible explanations for the FL - it belonged to an intruder, it belonged to JR, it belonged to a LEO

after discussing the first two options, he says that the FL was the type preferred by LEOs (a Maglite) but that it was not marked (as LEOs do, to identify their equipment) and that the serial number could not be traced to any particular PD issuing it to one of their officers

which is totally different from "Thomas opined that the flashlight belonged to a BPD officer"

(I apologize in advance if he indeed said that in a linked interview)

I think it is well known that Warner Spitz, after conducting simulation tests, posited that the barrel of the FL produced roughly-rectangular damage to skulls (very similar to JB's head wound)

 

[midwest mama]

It has never been determined exactly what she was bashed with. No weapon was positively identified as the murder weapon. The flashlight was completely wiped inside and out- that makes it a prime candidate in my mind. Although the Rs tried to say it wasn't theirs at first (because it was dirty???- aka fingerprint powder) Patsy had to admit to police when show a photo of the EMPTY drawer where she admitted theirs was kept that it could have been theirs.[/QUOTE ]

I have always wondered why there was a police photo of an empty drawer. Would it be usual for them to open drawers and shoot photos of the contents or of drawers that lacked contents? I recall reading the interview, too, of PR responding to the questioning about the flashlight and IIRC she told LE that JR had gotten it from JAR as a gift and that this info came out before the interview in which JR was then questioned about it. I have to think LE felt there was very good reason to try to establish ownership of that flashlight.

 

[Tawny]

She was hit in the head with a baseball bat not a flash light. Someone saw a picture of it next to her head before the crime scene was ever shown to the public. The killer put it on the internet and removed it, before the police could see it. At the bottom of the picture were 6 symbols like some sort of a cipher ?

Do you have any way to corroborate those claims? They're pretty outrageous and you're stating them as though they're fact... Any links to this info?

 

[THE BUNK]

She was hit in the head with a baseball bat not a flash light. Someone saw a picture of it next to her head before the crime scene was ever shown to the public. The killer put it on the internet and removed it, before the police could see it. At the bottom of the picture were 6 symbols like some sort of a cipher ?

A baseball bat would have done much more damage, IMHO. In fact I think it would have caved her head in.

 

[Chrishope]

Well, not exactly.

I assume you’re referencing Docg’s argument re: the basement window. Here’s one (of a few) problems with it: iirc, Docg has Mr Ramsey do some preliminary window staging, but Mrs Ramsey calls the police before he can finish it. So, he dashes off with minutes to spare, and he un-stages his staging (magically picks up the glass without disturbing any of the other debris, and vanishes it) and then – even though he has now un-staged his staged entry point, essentially leaving the intruder with no means of entry – he tells the police that all the doors were locked!!

Good grief.

I hardly know where to begin.

Using the word "magically" only shows your opinion, not anything concrete. How long would it take to scoop up some glass? It's not a very big hole. There were a piece or two of glass on the floor - FW even picked up one. You really think that glass had been there for 6 months?

JR wasn't leaving the "intruder" with no point of entry, he was leaving the possibility of an intruder with a key. I will agree that he could have unlocked a door providing a fictional entry point that was believable. Why he chose to leave only the entry by key scenario I don't know (then of course in your further comments you provide other methods of entry) He had to unstage a partially staged window, otherwise it becomes all too obvious that it was a staged rather than real entry point.

May I ask if you believe a millionaire lived with broken window for several months, and let the cold air and snow blow through it, despite it being in the train room where Burke played regularly? I need to also ask whether you actually believe someone came through that basement window. Finally I need to ask if you believe JR took off his suit, and jumped down the window well, put his shoes back on, kicked a hole in the window, shimmied himself through the window, but can't quite remember whether or not he was in his skivies, can't quite remember whether or not he drove his own car (in which case he'd have his garage door opener) or whether he took a cab? Do you think LHP is lying when she says she has no recolection of cleaning up any glass? And do yo blieve the housekeeper did such a poor job that some glass is still there 6 months later? Finally I have to ask why JR seems downplaying the window as entry point when he's talking to the police on the 26th, but later, when LS is on his side he's pushing the window as entry point.

At any rate there are not nearly as many problems with Doc's theory as compared to IDI.

Incidentally, there are other ways of entry besides the window or a key. For example, he could have used an electronic device to open the garage door, or enter it via stealth as it is opened for the Ramsey car, and through there into the house (the door between was usually unlocked); he could have entered through an unlocked door and simply locked it behind him when he left (iirc, the front door automatically locked upon closing); he could have bumped a lock; he could ahev entered through the basement window days or weeks ahead of time and prepared an entry in advance....

IOWs there really isn't a problem with JR unstaging the window then saying the doors and windows were locked, still plenty of possible entry points.

Re: the flashlight. I'm afraid that it won't much matter if one wants to pretend the flashlight belonged to LE or an intruder. There still, as far as we know, is only one maglite. If LE/Intruder left theirs, then the Rs would be in the drawer where they kept it. The other would be on the counter. We don't know with 100% certainty it was the Rs FL, but we can be highly certain. The Rs admit it could be theirs.

This case isn't about possibilities, it's about probabilities.

 

[Linda7NJ]

She was hit in the head with a baseball bat not a flash light. Someone saw a picture of it next to her head before the crime scene was ever shown to the public. The killer put it on the internet and removed it, before the police could see it. At the bottom of the picture were 6 symbols like some sort of a cipher ?

Link please


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Frigga]

^ A voice of reason. Thank you Chrishope.

 

[Anti-K]

I will have to consider that wishful thinking, unless there is a link to an interview where ST says that. because in his book, demonstrating fairness and an open mind, what he does state is that there are only three possible explanations for the FL - it belonged to an intruder, it belonged to JR, it belonged to a LEO

after discussing the first two options, he says that the FL was the type preferred by LEOs (a Maglite) but that it was not marked (as LEOs do, to identify their equipment) and that the serial number could not be traced to any particular PD issuing it to one of their officers

which is totally different from "Thomas opined that the flashlight belonged to a BPD officer"

(I apologize in advance if he indeed said that in a linked interview)

I think it is well known that Warner Spitz, after conducting simulation tests, posited that the barrel of the FL produced roughly-rectangular damage to skulls (very similar to JB's head wound)

Thomas offers three explanations for the flashlight, 1) it belonged to the family, 2) it was left behind by an intruder, and 3) it was left behind by “some cop.” He writes, “That it bore no fingerprints was consistent with a piece of equipment being handled in cold weather by a cop wearing gloves.” p. 240

I probably should have written, “Consider that Thomas opined that the flashlight COULD HAVE belonged to a BPD officer.”
...

AK

 

[gramcracker]

Thomas offers three explanations for the flashlight, 1) it belonged to the family, 2) it was left behind by an intruder, and 3) it was left behind by “some cop.” He writes, “That it bore no fingerprints was consistent with a piece of equipment being handled in cold weather by a cop wearing gloves.” p. 240

I probably should have written, “Consider that Thomas opined that the flashlight COULD HAVE belonged to a BPD officer.”

they mark their equipment because if three LEOs each carry theirs to a scene and set them down then they will know which one belongs to whom. (the FL had no personal LEO ID markings)

I mean, really. I marked my equipment in cosmetology school and in every salon where I worked, as did every other stylist. we used markers on the tags of cloth items and nail polish dots on shears, combs, dryers, clippers, hand mirrors, etc. we chose our colors/color combos and everyone could tell at a glance who owned every item in the shop. it's not that hard

 

[Anti-K]

they mark their equipment because if three LEOs each carry theirs to a scene and set them down then they will know which one belongs to whom. (the FL had no personal LEO ID markings)

I mean, really. I marked my equipment in cosmetology school and in every salon where I worked, as did every other stylist. we used markers on the tags of cloth items and nail polish dots on shears, combs, dryers, clippers, hand mirrors, etc. we chose our colors/color combos and everyone could tell at a glance who owned every item in the shop. it's not that hard

I’m not arguing that the flashlight belonged to, or could have belong to a BPD officer. I am only repeating Thomas: Besides its being the Ramsey’s, what also made sense was the third option, that some cop brought the heavy flashlight inside... p. 240

He does mention that they weren’t able to trace the serial number – maglites have serial numbers! But, this just means that the owner never registered it.
...

AK

 

[gramcracker]

PDs use the serial # when they provide equipment to officers, which was the context ST wrote about

 

[bettybaby00]

I hardly know where to begin.

Using the word "magically" only shows your opinion, not anything concrete. How long would it take to scoop up some glass? It's not a very big hole. There were a piece or two of glass on the floor - FW even picked up one. You really think that glass had been there for 6 months?

JR wasn't leaving the "intruder" with no point of entry, he was leaving the possibility of an intruder with a key. I will agree that he could have unlocked a door providing a fictional entry point that was believable. Why he chose to leave only the entry by key scenario I don't know (then of course in your further comments you provide other methods of entry) He had to unstage a partially staged window, otherwise it becomes all too obvious that it was a staged rather than real entry point.

May I ask if you believe a millionaire lived with broken window for several months, and let the cold air and snow blow through it, despite it being in the train room where Burke played regularly? I need to also ask whether you actually believe someone came through that basement window. Finally I need to ask if you believe JR took off his suit, and jumped down the window well, put his shoes back on, kicked a hole in the window, shimmied himself through the window, but can't quite remember whether or not he was in his skivies, can't quite remember whether or not he drove his own car (in which case he'd have his garage door opener) or whether he took a cab? Do you think LHP is lying when she says she has no recolection of cleaning up any glass? And do yo blieve the housekeeper did such a poor job that some glass is still there 6 months later? Finally I have to ask why JR seems downplaying the window as entry point when he's talking to the police on the 26th, but later, when LS is on his side he's pushing the window as entry point.

At any rate there are not nearly as many problems with Doc's theory as compared to IDI.



IOWs there really isn't a problem with JR unstaging the window then saying the doors and windows were locked, still plenty of possible entry points.

Re: the flashlight. I'm afraid that it won't much matter if one wants to pretend the flashlight belonged to LE or an intruder. There still, as far as we know, is only one maglite. If LE/Intruder left theirs, then the Rs would be in the drawer where they kept it. The other would be on the counter. We don't know with 100% certainty it was the Rs FL, but we can be highly certain. The Rs admit it could be theirs.

This case isn't about possibilities, it's about probabilities.

BBM

Bingo!

 

[UKGuy]

Thomas offers three explanations for the flashlight, 1) it belonged to the family, 2) it was left behind by an intruder, and 3) it was left behind by “some cop.” He writes, “That it bore no fingerprints was consistent with a piece of equipment being handled in cold weather by a cop wearing gloves.” p. 240I probably should have written, “Consider that Thomas opined that the flashlight COULD HAVE belonged to a BPD officer.”...AK

Anti-K,So the intruder leaves touch-dna behind on JonBenet but removes any traces from the flashlight, since it was tested forensically, this left it looking dirty, so JR plausibly said he never recognized it as his.The R's never denied outright that the flashlight did not belong to them, only that they did not recognize it as one given as a gift. No fingerprints is also consistent with an R wiping the flashlight down, regardless of whom it belonged to!Nobody anywhere has demonstrated that an intruder was in the Ramsey household, particularly before midnight 12/25/1996, or why they might casually wipe the flashlight clean, then as an afterthought leave it behind, leaving open the possibility it could be traced back to the intruder via the serial number.So its probable that the flashlight belongs to the R's. The real question is: was it used to assault JonBenet, what part does it play in any RDI theory. IMO its use to whack JonBenet on the head as she was sitting snacking pineapple is consistent with all the evidence. .

 

[Chrishope]

Anti-K,So the intruder leaves touch-dna behind on JonBenet but removes any traces from the flashlight, since it was tested forensically, this left it looking dirty, so JR plausibly said he never recognized it as his.The R's never denied outright that the flashlight did not belong to them, only that they did not recognize it as one given as a gift. No fingerprints is also consistent with an R wiping the flashlight down, regardless of whom it belonged to!Nobody anywhere has demonstrated that an intruder was in the Ramsey household, particularly before midnight 12/25/1996, or why they might casually wipe the flashlight clean, then as an afterthought leave it behind, leaving open the possibility it could be traced back to the intruder via the serial number.So its probable that the flashlight belongs to the R's. The real question is: was it used to assault JonBenet, what part does it play in any RDI theory. IMO its use to whack JonBenet on the head as she was sitting snacking pineapple is consistent with all the evidence. .

Yes, it is probable that the FL belongs to the Ramseys. There is also a good probability it was used to bash her skull. It's not the only possibility, but it makes a good deal of sense.

As far as Thomas's comments go - this is very easy to check. The investigators know which BPD cops were in the house on the 26th (pretty much the entire dept. it seems) so they simply ask if anyone is missing a FL. Additionally, this is Department issued equipment, so a cop leaving it behind would need to explain what happened to it (he lost it) and requisition a new one. As far as we know, no BDP officer lost a FL. You've got to face it Anti-K, the FL is very likely the R's FL.

 

[DeeDee249]

Thomas offers three explanations for the flashlight, 1) it belonged to the family, 2) it was left behind by an intruder, and 3) it was left behind by “some cop.” He writes, “That it bore no fingerprints was consistent with a piece of equipment being handled in cold weather by a cop wearing gloves.” p. 240

I probably should have written, “Consider that Thomas opined that the flashlight COULD HAVE belonged to a BPD officer.”
...

AK

I doubt a cop would have removed the batteries, wiped them down, and put them back in.