The oversized Bloomingdale’s panties.

[Anti-K]

Anti-K,
mmm, according to BPD no size-12's were to be found in the house, and assuming they never flew out the window ...

If you can’t answer the question, than why do you keep replying to me? This seems very bizarre.

Any other RDI want to help me with this one? I don’t understand what is being proposed as reason for the Ramseys hiding the package of panties. What (and, when) are they supposed to have done with it; and, why? Someone help me make sense of this, please.
…

AK

 

[OliviaG1996]

If you can’t answer the question, than why do you keep replying to me? This seems very bizarre.

Any other RDI want to help me with this one? I don’t understand what is being proposed as reason for the Ramseys hiding the package of panties. What (and, when) are they supposed to have done with it; and, why? Someone help me make sense of this, please.
…

AK

IMO, to make their story add up, they should've put the size 12s (not still in the package) in JBR's underwear drawer where PR said they were stored the whole time. As for when, they should've done this before they called the police. None of this was done, however.

No size 12s were in the drawer as PR claimed, and they were still in the package when they were sent to LE, which they shouldn't have been since PR said JBR had worn them before. I hope I answered your questions.

 

[Anti-K]

IMO, to make their story add up, they should've put the size 12s (not still in the package) in JBR's underwear drawer where PR said they were stored the whole time. As for when, they should've done this before they called the police. None of this was done, however.

No size 12s were in the drawer as PR claimed, and they were still in the package when they were sent to LE, which they shouldn't have been since PR said JBR had worn them before. I hope I answered your questions.

I think their story adds up just fine as it is, but that isn’t what I’m asking about.

And, you didn’t answer what I’m asking. You’re simply saying that they did it (hid or disposed of package).

I’m trying to understand the reason being proposed for the Ramseys hiding the package of panties. WHY would they do that?

And, further, what did they do with them?
…

AK

 

[Tawny]

I think their story adds up just fine as it is, but that isn’t what I’m asking about.

And, you didn’t answer what I’m asking. You’re simply saying that they did it (hid or disposed of package).

I’m trying to understand the reason being proposed for the Ramseys hiding the package of panties. WHY would they do that?

And, further, what did they do with them?
…

AK

WHY: So that the package of panties wouldn't be connected to the panties she was wearing, to make it look like they came from somewhere else.

WHAT DID THEY DO WITH THEM: Hide them literally anywhere? There was never a search of the house for a package of panties, and even if there were, multiple items including dad's golf bag were allowed to be removed from the house near immediately.

 

[OliviaG1996]

I think their story adds up just fine as it is, but that isn’t what I’m asking about.

And, you didn’t answer what I’m asking. You’re simply saying that they did it (hid or disposed of package).

I’m trying to understand the reason being proposed for the Ramseys hiding the package of panties. WHY would they do that?

And, further, what did they do with them?
…

AK

Your question was: "What (and, when) are they supposed to have done with it; and, why?". I answered what they were supposed to have done with the underwear, when they should've, and why they should've.

To answer your new questions: "WHY would they do that [Hide the underwear]? And, further, what did they do with them?", I'd have to be a Ramsey in order to answer those with absolute certainty. Maybe they weren't hidden at all. They couldn't have been left in the basement with the rest of the partially opened presents? Were the list of partially opened presents in the basement ever released?

I have a few questions of my own: Why do you think PR's recollection that JBR regularly wore size 12s and that they were in her drawer adds up? Do you think they fit JBR? Why do you think they were still in the package when LE received them?

 

[MURDERER_SERVANT]

Imo the point is R didn't want LE to do an immediate thorough search in the house and in their garden or in their car. It was staged accordingly.. Nothing seemed missing ...

* JbR was fully clothed even the exact day Wednesday panties were on.. (Semen/DNA test could be done very well)
*Flashlight on the table out of an open drawer how convenient
*Garrote there, rope there..
*A bat lying in the garden ready to be picked up by LE which could be an assault weapon and not belonging to the R .. Interesting..
*A ransom note with handwriting to keep LE busy while at their house..

One thing was absolutely missing imo.. Size 6 panties JBwas wearing with DNA evidence on it..but replaced with another wednesday panties to fool LE not to search their house and find whatever else was hidden...

One thinks even the body happened to be found(!) by J, how could they find a 6 size underwear when they didn't know what to look for..

 

[webweaved]

WHY: So that the package of panties wouldn't be connected to the panties she was wearing, to make it look like they came from somewhere else.

WHAT DID THEY DO WITH THEM: Hide them literally anywhere? There was never a search of the house for a package of panties, and even if there were, multiple items including dad's golf bag were allowed to be removed from the house near immediately.

Exactly. It's a mess. The entire crime scene was left unsecured several times with things being taken out of the house by non-LE. That house should have been sealed and that family told to keep their $%$#% out of there. When you mess up the crime scene, everything snowballs from there IMO. LE did not take enough evidence from the scene in my opinion, they seemed to have discounted very important pieces of the puzzle. Outside looking in, it appeared to be a rush job. The R's had money, they could have stayed in a hotel. They had plenty of friends/family to stay with. There was no reason to open that crime scene up so quickly. It appears they had no idea what they would need LATER as evidence. A crime that happens on Christmas where the department has multiple personnel on holiday. I imagine when the call came up they were like ugh, really..on Christmas. I read somewhere on this thread the ME showed up late and did not even do a liver stick on JBR? If thats true, its crazy.

If those panties were meant for Jennie, only PR in my opinion would know where they were in the house and where to find them. JBR ran around in soiled undies often because she had so many accidents but on Christmas these new wrong size panties appear. Hmm. I also dont see any male putting long johns on a child, making sure she has all her jewelry on and perfectly white angelic clothing. Come on. The WED panties scream to me "Look! Look, she died on Christmas!! See!! Christmas!! Shes a total angel." After all, when LE sorta hinted she might have died early morning on the 26th, the R's slapped that grave marker up there, DECEMBER 25TH, adamantly. Just sayin. JMO.

 

[webweaved]

I think their story adds up just fine as it is, but that isn’t what I’m asking about.

And, you didn’t answer what I’m asking. You’re simply saying that they did it (hid or disposed of package).

I’m trying to understand the reason being proposed for the Ramseys hiding the package of panties. WHY would they do that?

And, further, what did they do with them?
…

AK

Say they did hide the panties...literally they could have put them anywhere. The house was cluttered with junk. LE didn't toss the house so to speak...the house wasn't tore up. They seemed to kid glove these people. Something like panties could have been overlooked. It's very possible. It's going to remain a weird hinky thing..like the pineapple. JMO.

 

[glamourkitty1922]

I'm thinking, who sends black shorts to the dry cleaner? But then I feel guilty for saying that when she's not here to defend herself. Ok, I'll just shut up.

I remember the 90s were big on dry clean clothing, unlike today.

 

[Ellie9]

Exactly. It's a mess. The entire crime scene was left unsecured several times with things being taken out of the house by non-LE. That house should have been sealed and that family told to keep their $%$#% out of there. When you mess up the crime scene, everything snowballs from there IMO. LE did not take enough evidence from the scene in my opinion, they seemed to have discounted very important pieces of the puzzle. Outside looking in, it appeared to be a rush job. The R's had money, they could have stayed in a hotel. They had plenty of friends/family to stay with. There was no reason to open that crime scene up so quickly. It appears they had no idea what they would need LATER as evidence. A crime that happens on Christmas where the department has multiple personnel on holiday. I imagine when the call came up they were like ugh, really..on Christmas. I read somewhere on this thread the ME showed up late and did not even do a liver stick on JBR? If thats true, its crazy.

If those panties were meant for Jennie, only PR in my opinion would know where they were in the house and where to find them. JBR ran around in soiled undies often because she had so many accidents but on Christmas these new wrong size panties appear. Hmm. I also dont see any male putting long johns on a child, making sure she has all her jewelry on and perfectly white angelic clothing. Come on. The WED panties scream to me "Look! Look, she died on Christmas!! See!! Christmas!! Shes a total angel." After all, when LE sorta hinted she might have died early morning on the 26th, the R's slapped that grave marker up there, DECEMBER 25TH, adamantly. Just sayin. JMO.

I think what you wrote in the last paragraph is interesting. It looks worse for them if JBR died on Christmas, before midnight. But they are pretty insistent for some reason, perhaps to garner even more sympathy or to make sure her daughter's death had deeper symbolic meaning.

Thoughts like these I can see IDI jumping all over, saying, "But the Ramsey's wouldn't do that on purpose then because it would make them look even more guilty." These thoughts aren't exactly wrong, but they're misguided. Of course it makes them look more guilty. But we are seeing this after looking deeply at this case with hindsight after almost two decades have gone by. Even days after the details of the case came in, people thought they looked guilty, because we are not emotionally wrecked, we're not in a rush, and even days later we have the benefit of hindsight and slowly considering each piece of evidence.

The Ramsey's without a doubt did things that made them look guilty, and this is simply because they were in a rush, they are not mastermind criminals, and they've likely never done anything remotely like this before in their lives. Also even if one of them did this in cold blood (I doubt this honestly) that leaves one other parent emotionally torn and very distraught. If they were covering for an accident or covering for their son's accident/violent outburst, then that's even more reason for them both to be emotionally disturbed and not thinking logically and clearly. This means they are without a doubt going to make a lot of mistakes that don't help them appear innocent. And that's what happened exactly, and that's why so many of us know that one of the Ramsey's killed that child.

 

[InstantProof]

Christmas means more sympathy and less scrutiny.

 

[Ellie9]

Q. Was it your intention, when you purchased those, for those to be for her, not for some third party as a gift?
A. I bought some things that were gifts and some things for her. So I don't --
Q. Just so I am clear, though, it is your best recollection that the purchase of the underpants, the Bloomi's days of the week, was something that you bought for her, whether it was just I am buying underwear for my kids or these are special, here's a present, that doesn't matter, but it was your intention that she would wear those?
A. Well, I think that I bought a package of the -- they came in a package of Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday. I think I bought a package to give to my niece.
Q. Which niece was that?
A. Jenny Davis.



MS. HARMER: And they ended up in JonBenet's bathroom?
A. Right.
Q. (By Ms. Harmer) Was there - I'm sorry. Do you recall making a decision then not to give them to Jenny or did JonBenet express an interest in them; therefore, you didn't give them to Jenny? How did that --
A. I can't say for sure. I mean, I think I bought them with the intention of sending them in a package of Christmas things to Atlanta. Obviously I didn't get that together, so I just put them in her, her panty drawer. So they were free game.

Red is me, bold is original poster.

Does anyone else get the idea that PR is actually also lying about buying them for her niece? She is using such dodgy wording and so many 'i think's whenever discussing giving them to Jenny Davis.

I can't understand why she would lie about this, but just reading this transcript it really does look like she may be lying about the niece AND lying about JBR wanting them and putting them on for herself.

I realize this can change the theories of a few RDI's but I'm just putting this out there as food for thought.

 

[Anti-K]

Your question was: "What (and, when) are they supposed to have done with it; and, why?". I answered what they were supposed to have done with the underwear, when they should've, and why they should've.

To answer your new questions: "WHY would they do that [Hide the underwear]? And, further, what did they do with them?", I'd have to be a Ramsey in order to answer those with absolute certainty. Maybe they weren't hidden at all. They couldn't have been left in the basement with the rest of the partially opened presents? Were the list of partially opened presents in the basement ever released?

I have a few questions of my own: Why do you think PR's recollection that JBR regularly wore size 12s and that they were in her drawer adds up? Do you think they fit JBR? Why do you think they were still in the package when LE received them?

think there was some confusion regarding what I was asking.
What you are calling my NEW question is, in fact, my ORIGINAL question. It was first asked here http://tinyurl.com/j6xtzr2

I asked it again, here, http://tinyurl.com/pnop57o

In the post you replied to, I asked it again, “I’m trying to understand the reason being proposed for the Ramseys hiding the package of panties. WHY would they do that?” http://tinyurl.com/ng4tnmg

The “what, where, when” are all premised upon the original question, “why would the Ramseys hide the package?”
.
To answer your questions:
Why do think PR's recollection that JBR regularly wore size 12s and that they were in her drawer adds up?
I don’t recall her saying that jbr regularly wore size 12’s.

Do think they fit JBR?
No; they were over-sized. The Karr warrant states that they were designed for a 12-14 year old girl.

Why do you think they were still in the package when LE received them?
Because they had never been removed from the package.
…

AK

 

[Anti-K]

WHY: So that the package of panties wouldn't be connected to the panties she was wearing, to make it look like they came from somewhere else.

WHAT DID THEY DO WITH THEM: Hide them literally anywhere? There was never a search of the house for a package of panties, and even if there were, multiple items including dad's golf bag were allowed to be removed from the house near immediately.

But, I thought RDI were saying that BPD DID search for the panties, didn’t find them and so, the Ramseys must have did something with them.

And, sorry, but, are you saying that the Ramseys wanted investigators to believe that an intruder brought a pair of panties with him?
…

AK

 

[Anti-K]

Imo the point is R didn't want LE to do an immediate thorough search in the house and in their garden or in their car. It was staged accordingly.. Nothing seemed missing ...

* JbR was fully clothed even the exact day Wednesday panties were on.. (Semen/DNA test could be done very well)
*Flashlight on the table out of an open drawer how convenient
*Garrote there, rope there..
*A bat lying in the garden ready to be picked up by LE which could be an assault weapon and not belonging to the R .. Interesting..
*A ransom note with handwriting to keep LE busy while at their house..

One thing was absolutely missing imo.. Size 6 panties JBwas wearing with DNA evidence on it..but replaced with another wednesday panties to fool LE not to search their house and find whatever else was hidden...

One thinks even the body happened to be found(!) by J, how could they find a 6 size underwear when they didn't know what to look for..

Jonbenet was missing.

That’s what the note said. That’s why the police were called. How does inviting the police over and telling them that someone came into their home and kidnapped their child stop the police from searching?
.

Maybe the size 6 panties weren’t missing. Maybe she was wearing the size 12 to begin with.
…

AK

 

[MURDERER_SERVANT]

Jonbenet was missing.

That’s what the note said. That’s why the police were called. How does inviting the police over and telling them that someone came into their home and kidnapped their child stop the police from searching?
.

Maybe the size 6 panties weren’t missing. Maybe she was wearing the size 12 to begin with.
…

AK

JP was not missing..She was not dumped to an unknown place out of the house but was lying in the basement to be found.

Yeah maybe she was wearing size 12 panties to begin with but then why the rest of the package wasn't in her drawer as P told, or not in the basement among other gifts? an open package of underwear in the basement sure would draw attention of LE as there was a sexual assault. where were the rest of her size 12 's ?? They were delivered years later. That is hiding imo.

 

[andreww]

Jonbenet was missing.

That’s what the note said. That’s why the police were called. How does inviting the police over and telling them that someone came into their home and kidnapped their child stop the police from searching?
.

Maybe the size 6 panties weren’t missing. Maybe she was wearing the size 12 to begin with.
…

AK

Some questions may never be answered, but we can make some very educated guesses. I can think of two explanations as to why she was wearing the Size 12s ;

1) Convenience. The person that killed her for some reason felt that they needed to cover up the evidence of a sexual assault. The fact that only her groin area was wiped down confirms that, and that would be a natural thing to do, be it intruder or family member. However, if the perp was aware that there was packaged underwear in that pile of wrapped gifts, that would definitely shift the focus to the family. The fact that she was redressed at all points at the family. Why would an intruder care? The Ramsey's reaction when it was made public that she had been repeatedly sexually abused sheds some light as to why. Seems they were more offended at being accused of sexual abuse than they were at being accused of murder. But yes, convenience. However did it wanted to hide the fact of sexual abuse and also knew there were panties in that stack of gifts, (Ahem Burke )

2) They simply wanted a "clean" pair of panties on her. This is similar to the first point but speaks more to possible previous ongoing sexual abuse by a family member. Whoever was doing the re-dressing simply didn't feel safe using any of JBs existing underwear for fear of DNA also being present on those.

To me both these scenarios likely point to Patsy covering up for Burke. Burke would certainly have been concerned about redressing but certainly wouldn't have been clever enough to want to use packaged underwear to ensure no further DNA evidence would be discovered. Patsy knew exactly where they were as well. John would likely be unaware that they were even there.

 

[InstantProof]

But, I thought RDI were saying that BPD DID search for the panties, didn’t find them and so, the Ramseys must have did something with them.

And, sorry, but, are you saying that the Ramseys wanted investigators to believe that an intruder brought a pair of panties with him?
…

AK

I think the poster is saying "they came from somewhere else" as in from her underwear drawer, not from a new package of underwear not her size in a new package in the basement where the body was redressed and staged.

 

[andreww]

You are correct, the thought of JB purposely wearing those giant panties is ridiculous. They simply would not have stayed up!

And the police took the contents of JBs underwear drawer as I recall. If they didn't, they would certainly have taken that unopened package as the matched what she was wearing. So we can pretty much say they weren't in the underwear drawer. And we know they weren't in the basement. So where were they?

 

[andreww]

Maybe the size 6 panties weren’t missing. Maybe she was wearing the size 12 to begin with.
…

AK

Ya right :thinking: