The oversized Bloomingdale’s panties.

[PositiveLight]

PositiveLight,
Back then or now? If they were BR's then they should have fitted him fine.

I used to think long johns were just for old guys, veteran types that picked up the habit whilst in the army.

Those long johns are even weirder than the size-12's.


.

I agree! They are more weird to me too. The reason I wonder if they still fit him at the time is this scenario -
If BR and JonBenet were playing doctor and both nude from the waist down, or completely nude, and things went wrong, it could be possible that he left his long johns by her unconscious body. Going on the thought process of JR doing a lot of the staging, early on, and he knew she had been sexually molested prior to her death, he may have been the one to cause the vaginal injury trying to cover up the evidence. Which would mean he was aware of it prior to that night.
JR wipes her down as best he could and grabbed the clothing nearest her to redress her. The pack of panties possibly nearby and considering he's been SO adamant that she died on Christmas Night, HE was the one who used the Wednesday panties. Maybe he told PR to find a pair quickly and that's the only Wednesday panties that were clean. He puts them on her and puts BR long johns on confusing them with JonBenet's and grabbed her nearby shirt from the night before with the star on it. PR brought the panties to him (from the unopened package meant for another family member) he redressed her because PR was too crazy acting at the time. BR had been sent to his room when JonBenet was found. They didn't need an explanation. The scene probably told it for them.
At the moment I'm imagining this occurring in her bedroom or BRs. I do feel BR attempted to strangle her with a ligature but wasn't successful. There were ligature marks already on her neck.
There was no way they could call 911 because of the scene and the attempt to take JonBenet's life. It wasn't an accident at this point. BR would have been probably taken away.
John did the majority of the staging with PR playing some roles in it.
He carried her down to the basement outside of the wine cellar and applied the final ligature.
This final ligature was the one that took her life.
Since it was premeditated to apply the ligature, it imho makes it 1st degree murder.
BR attempted murder
PR did odds and ends during the staging and wrote the ransom note.
The blankets were in the dryer and possibly PR didn't want her laying on that dirty cold floor. She grabbed the blankets from the nearby dryer to wrap her in. I think a lot of evidence was tossed during the night. Including her on bottoms and the original panties due to blood evidence on them.
I am now thinking it was Johns idea about the panties because he was SO insistent on her dying on Christmas night. In his mind at the time, it was proof of it occurring on Christmas night.
JMOO and where I am at today with my theory lol. I know it changes a lot but that's just how my mind works. Eventually I will have my own complete theory. I think that is what is good about this site and the people that have been here for so long working on the case.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

 

[PositiveLight]

I've looked up size charts for boys and girls, obviously these are based on averages, but JonBenet was 119.4cm tall, which is taller than average for a 6 year old girl, the average being 116cm.

So she wasn't small for her age.

Boys waist sizes

9 yr old 62cm
10 yr old 64cm

Girl's waist size

6 yr old 57cm

So if these fit Burke, they would have been 5 - 7 cm (2-3 inches) too large around the waist for JonBenet.

Hmm! Good sleuthing! Yet the panties were too big too. Weird!!

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

 

[kanzz]

He said she was stabbed with a knife. How do you know if those abrasions on her back were inflicted with such a motion? Matter of fact I believe they were inflicted after her death, because the autopsy says there is no bruising.

I don't think anyone in the forum, through the years it's been discussed, has been able to find a hammer that would cause that shape of skull depression.

Yes, if he never strangled her he wouldn't know.

BR's behaviour in the interviews is not consistent with him being the assailant. At all. She wan't hit in the same time frame that she ate pineapple. Coma halts digestion and whatever it's called which makes the food move along - the muscle contraction. She ate at least 30 minutes before, for it to be in her small intestine.

BBM
He didn't say she was stabbed.
"I know what happened. She was killed. Someone took her quietly and took her down in the basement… took a knife out… hit her on the head.”

 

[Tortoise]

BBM
He didn't say she was stabbed.
"I know what happened. She was killed. Someone took her quietly and took her down in the basement… took a knife out… hit her on the head.”

He didn't use the word stabbed, he motioned a stabbing with his hand after he said 'took a knife out'. So he indicated it, same effect as saying it.

 

[OliviaG1996]

He didn't use the word stabbed, he motioned a stabbing with his hand after he said 'took a knife out'. So he indicated it, same effect as saying it.

BR also said, "or something like that," and, "or maybe a hammer <striking motion>, hit her on the head, maybe,".

I'm curious to know why you think his interview two weeks after the murder isn't at all consistent with him being the assailant. It's certainly consistent with his interview with Dr. Phil. (Need I say more?)

 

[UKGuy]

I agree! They are more weird to me too. The reason I wonder if they still fit him at the time is this scenario -
If BR and JonBenet were playing doctor and both nude from the waist down, or completely nude, and things went wrong, it could be possible that he left his long johns by her unconscious body. Going on the thought process of JR doing a lot of the staging, early on, and he knew she had been sexually molested prior to her death, he may have been the one to cause the vaginal injury trying to cover up the evidence. Which would mean he was aware of it prior to that night.
JR wipes her down as best he could and grabbed the clothing nearest her to redress her. The pack of panties possibly nearby and considering he's been SO adamant that she died on Christmas Night, HE was the one who used the Wednesday panties. Maybe he told PR to find a pair quickly and that's the only Wednesday panties that were clean. He puts them on her and puts BR long johns on confusing them with JonBenet's and grabbed her nearby shirt from the night before with the star on it. PR brought the panties to him (from the unopened package meant for another family member) he redressed her because PR was too crazy acting at the time. BR had been sent to his room when JonBenet was found. They didn't need an explanation. The scene probably told it for them.
At the moment I'm imagining this occurring in her bedroom or BRs. I do feel BR attempted to strangle her with a ligature but wasn't successful. There were ligature marks already on her neck.
There was no way they could call 911 because of the scene and the attempt to take JonBenet's life. It wasn't an accident at this point. BR would have been probably taken away.
John did the majority of the staging with PR playing some roles in it.
He carried her down to the basement outside of the wine cellar and applied the final ligature.
This final ligature was the one that took her life.
Since it was premeditated to apply the ligature, it imho makes it 1st degree murder.
BR attempted murder
PR did odds and ends during the staging and wrote the ransom note.
The blankets were in the dryer and possibly PR didn't want her laying on that dirty cold floor. She grabbed the blankets from the nearby dryer to wrap her in. I think a lot of evidence was tossed during the night. Including her on bottoms and the original panties due to blood evidence on them.
I am now thinking it was Johns idea about the panties because he was SO insistent on her dying on Christmas night. In his mind at the time, it was proof of it occurring on Christmas night.
JMOO and where I am at today with my theory lol. I know it changes a lot but that's just how my mind works. Eventually I will have my own complete theory. I think that is what is good about this site and the people that have been here for so long working on the case.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

PositiveLight,
Yes its entirely possible JR dressed JonBenet in Burke's long johns, but why would he want to link Burke to an intruder crime-scene?

.

 

[Tortoise]

BR also said, "or something like that," and, "or maybe a hammer," so I'm not sure his comment about JBR being stabbed is a smoking gun.

I'm curious to know why you think his interview two weeks after the murder isn't at all consistent with him being the assailant. It's certainly consistent with his interview with Dr. Phil. (Need I say more?)

"I know what happened" and then proceeding to say what definitely didn't happen, shows ignorance of the crime.

Are you saying an inappropriate smile and anxiety is evidence of a murderer?

Rather than asking me why his behaviour as a 9 / 10 year old is inconsistent with him being the assailant, because he certainly made no admissions and there is no evidence he was lying, let me turn that around and ask you why his behaviour is consistent with him being the assailant. Guilt is what needs to be proved in this case, not innocence.

He supposedly committed a murder and a sexual assault, and left no traces at the scene, unless you count his touchDNA on a nightgown, which JonBenet was not even wearing, and could have got on that garment at any time.

 

[OliviaG1996]

"I know what happened" and then proceeding to say what definitely didn't happen, shows ignorance of the crime.

PR calling 9-1-1 also, "shows ignorance of the crime", does that mean she's not the assailant?

Are you saying an inappropriate smile and anxiety is evidence of a murderer?

No.

Rather than asking me why his behaviour as a 9 / 10 year old is inconsistent with him being the assailant, because he certainly made no admissions and there is no evidence he was lying, let me turn that around and ask you why his behaviour is consistent with him being the assailant. Guilt is what needs to be proved in this case, not innocence.

I'd prefer if you answered my question, but I'll bite: It's obvious he never truly cared for his sister, not like normal people care for their siblings. His interviews do not display "anxiety" so much as it displays indifference. Contrary to some's belief, though, his behavior is not the only evidence pointing towards his involvement.

He supposedly committed a murder and a sexual assault, and left no traces at the scene, unless you count his touchDNA on a nightgown, which JonBenet was not even wearing, and could have got on that garment at any time.

I don't, necessarily, but DNA and fibers are not the only pieces of the Who-Done-It puzzle. Maybe to some IDI, but not RDI.

 

[UKGuy]

He said she was stabbed with a knife. How do you know if those abrasions on her back were inflicted with such a motion? Matter of fact I believe they were inflicted after her death, because the autopsy says there is no bruising.

I don't think anyone in the forum, through the years it's been discussed, has been able to find a hammer that would cause that shape of skull depression.

Yes, if he never strangled her he wouldn't know.

BR's behaviour in the interviews is not consistent with him being the assailant. At all. She wan't hit in the same time frame that she ate pineapple. Coma halts digestion and whatever it's called which makes the food move along - the muscle contraction. She ate at least 30 minutes before, for it to be in her small intestine.

Tortoise,
Naturally you are at liberty to believe whatever you like. Consistency is one feature missing from this case, so decisions based on its apparent visibility are quite contentious.

If there was a hammer or similar involved I would not expect to see it lying next to her in the wine-cellar, assuming BR played no role in the wine-cellar staging.

.

 

[UKGuy]

PR calling 9-1-1 also, "shows ignorance of the crime", does that mean she's not the assailant?



No.



I'd prefer if you answered my question, but I'll bite: It's obvious he never truly cared for his sister, not like normal people care for their siblings. His interviews do not display "anxiety" so much as it displays indifference. Contrary to some's belief, though, his behavior is not the only evidence pointing towards his involvement.



I don't, necessarily, but DNA and fibers are not the only pieces of the Who-Done-It puzzle. Maybe to some IDI, but not RDI.

OliviaG1996,
For your delectation, the dna analysis report on JonBenet's body and clothing has not been released.

So who knows which R has touch-dna in compromising locations on JonBenet?

Absence of evidence does not denote evidence of innocence!

.

 

[Tortoise]

PR calling 9-1-1 also, "shows ignorance of the crime", does that mean she's not the assailant?



No.



I'd prefer if you answered my question, but I'll bite: It's obvious he never truly cared for his sister, not like normal people care for their siblings. His interviews do not display "anxiety" so much as it displays indifference. Contrary to some's belief, though, his behavior is not the only evidence pointing towards his involvement.



I don't, necessarily, but DNA and fibers are not the only pieces of the Who-Done-It puzzle. Maybe to some IDI, but not RDI.

PR calling 911 did not manage to convince. The operator was not convinced, or thought something was wrong about the call. What Patsy said on that call contains lots of red flags. So not only was her tone suspiciously like an act, her words didn't match a true call for help. That's not quite the same as Burke's interview as a child. I thought he was entirely believable and not being deceitful.

I thought I did answer your question in a round about way. I'll try again. There was nothing that he said or did that made me think he was the assailant. Consequently, it falls to people who think the child interview was consistent with him being the assailant to elucidate why.

I don't think it's obvious he never cared for his sister. That's a huge assumption to make, from a child speaking to a stranger. Moving on to his Dr Phil interview, I didn't see indifference either. The only thing he said that I didn't like was that JBR was flaunting herself. It's has horrible connotations when used to describe a 6 year old. But I do happen to agree with him. That is what Patsy had trained her to do.

If his interview behaviour is not the only evidence pointing towards his involvement, what is the evidence? I've listed evidence I feel shows he was ignorant of everything.

Absence of his DNA, and fibres must mean something. Unless he was wearing gloves and had read John Douglas too.

.

 

[UKGuy]

Patsy said it looked like her pink pyjama top on her bed, turned inside out with the label showing, where her pillow should have been. No reason to think it isn't. If you look at that photo of her wearing it (sitting down with her presents) you'll see the same cuff ribbing of the sleeve. I know you think it's different but I think it's the same.

Tortoise,
In the photo that No it's not's posted the top is definitely pink. Yet if you look at the neck collar it appears to be open at the front and a visible white lining to the collar is visible.

If the top on JonBenet's bed is turned inside out. with the inside label at the back then patently the front represents where there should be visible white lining, and it is absent.

Much as I would wish to resolve this subject by deferring to your better eyesight, unfortunately I cannot.

I see the top on her bed as distinct from the top in the picture!

.

 

[kanzz]

He didn't use the word stabbed, he motioned a stabbing with his hand after he said 'took a knife out'. So he indicated it, same effect as saying it.

All subject to interpretation, imo. What you interpret as a stabbing motion, I interpret as a bashing over the head motion - twice.
"I think that someone took her very quietly and took her down to the basement and he took a knife out and woops like that with probably a hammer and probably hit her in the head with it."
Skip to the 24:12 mark:
https://youtu.be/Wn6EjDR8KEY

 

[UKGuy]

All subject to interpretation, imo. What you interpret as a stabbing motion, I interpret as a bashing over the head motion - twice.
"I think that someone took her very quietly and took her down to the basement and he took a knife out and woops like that with probably a hammer and probably hit her in the head with it."
Skip to the 24:12 mark:
https://youtu.be/Wn6EjDR8KEY

kanzz,
Yes, there was a knife found down there, BR's knife I believe, and JonBenet was whacked on the head.

So what BR is saying in the interview is consistent with knowledge of her homicide.

Somebody has pointed out some details were reported in the local press or TV?

.

 

[Tortoise]

Tortoise,
In the photo that No it's not's posted the top is definitely pink. Yet if you look at the neck collar it appears to be open at the front and a visible white lining to the collar is visible.

If the top on JonBenet's bed is turned inside out. with the inside label at the back then patently the front represents where there should be visible white lining, and it is absent.

Much as I would wish to resolve this subject by deferring to your better eyesight, unfortunately I cannot.

I see the top on her bed as distinct from the top in the picture!

.

A white detail on the front of a garment does not necessarily mean it has to be lined with white material. Sometimes, decorative materials are stitched on top, like applique.

 

[UKGuy]

A white detail on the front of a garment does not necessarily mean it has to be lined with white material. Sometimes, decorative materials are stitched on top, like applique.

Tortoise,
That may be the case, but without an explanation as to why the top in NIN's photo appears to be open at the front with white lining visible, yet these details are absent from the photo on JonBenet's bed.

I'm assuming since we have identified the top as pink in NIN's photo its not that controversial any more.

I'll keep the top on the bed for future reference.

.

 

[Tortoise]

All subject to interpretation, imo. What you interpret as a stabbing motion, I interpret as a bashing over the head motion - twice.
"I think that someone took her very quietly and took her down to the basement and he took a knife out and woops like that with probably a hammer and probably hit her in the head with it."
Skip to the 24:12 mark:
https://youtu.be/Wn6EjDR8KEY

If someone takes a knife and lunges forwards with it, no I don't interpret that as a bashing over the head.

Particularly not when followed up with a different implement that is used for bashing.

This is my transcription of the interview -

BR:-"I think that someone took her very quietly and tiptoed down the basement and he took a knife out and he went whoops like that. DrB:- Do you think that's how she died? BR:- And maybe a hammer, hit her in the head with it."

 

[OliviaG1996]

PR calling 911 did not manage to convince. The operator was not convinced, or thought something was wrong about the call. What Patsy said on that call contains lots of red flags. So not only was her tone suspiciously like an act, her words didn't match a true call for help. That's not quite the same as Burke's interview as a child. I thought he was entirely believable and not being deceitful.

I think it is the same. As you don't find PR's call for help believable, I don't find BR's supposed grief believable at all.

I thought I did answer your question in a round about way. I'll try again. There was nothing that he said or did that made me think he was the assailant. Consequently, it falls to people who think the child interview was consistent with him being the assailant to elucidate why.

As I answered above, his lack of sad emotions and abundance of happy ones is consistent with him being the assailant among many other things.

I don't think it's obvious he never cared for his sister. That's a huge assumption to make, from a child speaking to a stranger. Moving on to his Dr Phil interview, I didn't see indifference either. The only thing he said that I didn't like was that JBR was flaunting herself. It's has horrible connotations when used to describe a 6 year old. But I do happen to agree with him. That is what Patsy had trained her to do.

I didn't base this conclusion based on interviews alone. His lack of emotion at his sister's funeral and the morning she "went missing" comes to mind as well. Nowhere have I ever read he was crying at either of these events, unless it's in PW's book which I will not be reading. (Thank you, BoldBear.)

If his interview behaviour is not the only evidence pointing towards his involvement, what is the evidence? I've listed evidence I feel shows he was ignorant of everything.

Absence of his DNA, and fibres must mean something. Unless he was wearing gloves and had read John Douglas too.

.

There's plenty of evidence to read up on in these threads that point to BR's involvement. Kolar's book is a great start, too. BR's voice on the 9-1-1 call, feces smearing, fingerprints on glass and bowl of pineapple, and train tracks come to mind.

 

[Tortoise]

Tortoise,
That may be the case, but without an explanation as to why the top in NIN's photo appears to be open at the front with white lining visible, yet these details are absent from the photo on JonBenet's bed.

I'm assuming since we have identified the top as pink in NIN's photo its not that controversial any more.

I'll keep the top on the bed for future reference.

.

I haven't seen an opening at the front or white lining in any photo.

 

[Ambitioned]

All subject to interpretation, imo. What you interpret as a stabbing motion, I interpret as a bashing over the head motion - twice.
"I think that someone took her very quietly and took her down to the basement and he took a knife out and woops like that with probably a hammer and probably hit her in the head with it."
Skip to the 24:12 mark:
https://youtu.be/Wn6EjDR8KEY

That's how I see it too and I have watched it many times.

The "flaunting" wasn't the only bad thing he said. I wish I had bookmarked PL's show transcripts but he was asked about the funeral and what he remembered about it and he said, "The casket was small and I think one of her eyes was a little bit, like, droopy." (To paraphrase).

Seriously??? Your sister is dead and that's what you remember? He made other little digs which told me he absolutely seethed with hate for her. In no way did he ever build her up. Even in death he tore her down when she can't defend herself. Utter piece of ****.

JMO ofc.