The Ramseys are Cleared

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SuperDave said:
Oh, really?

"The police never bothered to ask Ubowski if he had put his entire analysis of the ransom note into his report. Either way, Ubowski was prepared to say, 'Patsy wrote the note.' The CBI saw this as another missed opportunity" (Schiller 1999a:536-537). Schiller further notes: "experts from the CBI presented their evaluations into evidence, including Chet Ubowski. He also told Pete Mang, his boss at the CBI, that his gut told him it was her handwriting" (Schiller 1999a:740).

Carol McKinley stated in the Fox News story that Ramseys sued Fox over: "Many forensic document examiners have given their opinions as to who wrote the note. But the only one to testify before a grand jury in the case was Chet Ubowski, forensic document examiner for the Colorado Bureau of Investigation. Out of 100 people he analyzed for the Boulder Police Department, he found ONLY ONE person whom he thought may have authored the document, Patsy Ramsey. Investigative sources tell Fox News that the disguised letters and bleeding ink from the felt tipped pen used to write the note kept him from 100 percent ID of Mrs. Ramsey."

Look, I'm not an attorney, I'm just a layperson. That means I can't not see what my eyes see. IOWs, I trust my own eyes, and I would think most people would.
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But Dave, other "experts" thought Karr wrote the note. It's so subjective...
 
Medea said:
My theory on false convictions is that there are two types of people at risk: there is the wrong place/wrong time petty criminal, homeless, vagrant type who is misidentified or wrongly zeroed in on by police and there is the weird family member who either has a secret or who doesn't react 'normally'..

It is possible that the Ramsey's were odd, I think Patsy was a nut job independent of her daughter's death.

But, its a lot of 'odd' behavior that seems to run counter to logic. You think your daughter was kidnapped, yet you don't abide by the demands of the ransom note...you call up everyone and their brother immediately. You think a kidnapper has been in your house, but as you said, you don't question your son about what he might have seen, but you 'let him sleep'...

Some of their stonewalling is understandible, I can see not being questioned w/out a lawyer once you knew you were a suspect.....but demanding the questions in ADVANCE and only being questioned together? That screams out to me that they feared their stories wouldn't match....

I can also see refusing a polygraph..there are documented cases where 'innocent' people failed and guiltiy people passed..but then, just say no...or do two rounds of tests...one w/your experts and one w/FBI....

Its the sheer number of very strange things they did that when taken together along with the evidence and the FBI conclusions etc, its hard to dismiss it.
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But then that leaves you wondering.... how much do the parents REALLY love their child IF they're so worried about being falsely accused that they won't cooperate with the investigation while it still can make a difference?

I think the vast majority of parents would say they'd rather go to jail wrongly than do ANYTHING that impedes solving their child's horrendous murder.

The lawyers did them no favor..... UNLESS they knew they were guilty & then it truly WAS the only logical strategy to take.
 
But Dave, other "experts" thought Karr wrote the note. It's so subjective...
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I'm not saying it's not subjective, Tex. It's not a science. But you're forgetting a few important things with that comparison, most notably that the Karr "experts" were not involved with this case in any fashion, and did who knows how little actual analysis on this case.
 
In all fairness to Steve Thomas....he was not brought into the case until 3 days after the murder. His requests for warrants were ignored....he had his hands tied behind his back most of the time.

The DA's office is to blame for this mess of an investigation. POLITICS and MONEY.
 
Anniegirl said:
However, something that really struck me is when i listen to Patsy's 911 call, it right away reminded me of Brenda VanDams 911 call--- and Brenda ,who, we know was innocent victim -- theres a panic , a lot of "OMG , help me"..etc. same as or similar to Patsy's (sorry tried to find both 911 calls to post but couldnt come across actual link to them)-- and it made me re think her involvement in Jonbenet's murder----both mothers ,IMO sound similar in their fear, their panic and utter horror of whats going on---

Patsy, just a great actress or innocent?


:chicken:
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I think she was genuinely panicked and horrified, even if it was she who had done it. I don't think she meant to kill JBR. When she made the 911 call, that made it seem very real all of a sudden...like waking up from a bad dream. This really did happen, she really did do it, and her daughter is never coming back.
 
There's something else here, as well. If anyone at anytime can prove that the Boulder DA was known for its aggressive conduct toward prosecution, it will just about put me out of busniness. What I mean is, if this were a normally aggressive DA who advised caution, that would mean something. I would liken it to Nixon going to China, even though he was an ardent anti-Communist.

But that's not the situation here. Here you have a DA's office known for having a standard of proof that no one could meet to their satisfaction (it's supposed to be "beyond a reasonable doubt," not beyond ANY doubt), and seeking plea bargains against indigents with taxpayer-provided lawyers. They had no chance against a multi-million dollar law firm which owns half the state. It's like taking on a battleship with a popgun!

I hope LinasK shows up.
 
robotdog said:
so, lets say that someday this DNA is matched up with someone
and the "matchup" is for someone that lives in china and has never been to the USA, does that mean the new DNA findings were bogus
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If the DNA belongs to a registered sex offender somewhere, I'll start to think it's an important piece of evidence.
 
Class-z said:
I agree with you Angelwings, I still think they did it. What perp would come into your house, remove your child, take them to YOUR basement, molest them, kill them, redress them and not worry about getting caught? It just doens't make sense.

If soemone was going to do all of that they would of taken her out of the house
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There is no knowing what these sickos will do. Some of them are incredibly brazen. There was the case a few years back now, where an English schoolgirl on a trip to France was raped and murdered with two of her friends in the room. One of the other girls heard the girl who was murdered banging her feet on the floor, but just thought she was having a bad dream. The guy got clean away, although much later he was caught, probably through a DNA match, and is now behind bars. I believe the girl's name was Caroline Dickinson.
 
Parmenides said:
There is no knowing what these sickos will do. Some of them are incredibly brazen. There was the case a few years back now, where an English schoolgirl on a trip to France was raped and murdered with two of her friends in the room. One of the other girls heard the girl who was murdered banging her feet on the floor, but just thought she was having a bad dream. The guy got clean away, although much later he was caught, probably through a DNA match, and is now behind bars. I believe the girl's name was Caroline Dickinson.
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There are sick people who drift around killing girls:

Tommy Lynn Sells


Lexington, Kentucky: On May 13, 1999, he raped and killed 13-year-old Haley McHone. "He said he was sitting by the railroad tracks, watching her play on some swings, and he decided at that moment to rape and kill her.

Del Rio, Texas:
Sells climbed into the home through a window and went into a bedroom where 13-year-old Kaylene Harris was sleeping in a bunk bed with her friend Krystal Surles, 10. Sells reached into the lower bunk with a knife and cut Kaylene's throat, killing her. Then he slashed Krystal's throat and fled. But Krystal survived. And from her hospital bed, Krystal - unable to talk because her vocal cords had been cut -used a pad and pencil to describe her assailant. At 6 a.m. on January 2, Ranger Allen and Lt. Larry Pope of the Val Verde County Sheriff's Department went to Sells' trailer in Del Rio and arrested him.

"He was calm, almost complacent when we began to question him," said Allen. "Then he said: 'I guess you want to know about the others.' " In the days that followed, Sells spelled out how he'd drifted across America, killing as he went often in a drunken or drug-induced haze.

He's on Texas Death Row since 2000 so he's got probably another 5 years til he gets the needle he so richly deserves.
 
SuperDave said:
It's still apples and handgrenades, to me.
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I don't know Dave....some sicko sees Miss JonBenet dressed up in her pagent stuff or playing outside, gets obsessed with her, perhaps he watches the home, sneaks in after they leave for the party and waits. To me it makes a lot more sense than parents who adored the kid getting mad cause she wet the bed and killing her. People like this ARE among us.:behindbar
 
SuperDave said:
There's something else here, as well. If anyone at anytime can prove that the Boulder DA was known for its aggressive conduct toward prosecution, it will just about put me out of busniness. What I mean is, if this were a normally aggressive DA who advised caution, that would mean something. I would liken it to Nixon going to China, even though he was an ardent anti-Communist.

But that's not the situation here. Here you have a DA's office known for having a standard of proof that no one could meet to their satisfaction (it's supposed to be "beyond a reasonable doubt," not beyond ANY doubt), and seeking plea bargains against indigents with taxpayer-provided lawyers. They had no chance against a multi-million dollar law firm which owns half the state. It's like taking on a battleship with a popgun!

I hope LinasK shows up.
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Using the evidence that LE provided him with and given over a year, Kane could not convince the Grand Jury that probable cause existed. That's why the Ramseys were not indicted.
 
texmex said:
i don't know dave....some sicko sees miss jonbenet dressed up in her pagent stuff or playing outside, gets obsessed with her, perhaps he watches the home, sneaks in after they leave for the party and waits. To me it makes a lot more sense than parents who adored the kid getting mad cause she wet the bed and killing her. People like this are among us.:behindbar
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titcr
 
TexMex said:
I don't know Dave....some sicko sees Miss JonBenet dressed up in her pagent stuff or playing outside, gets obsessed with her, perhaps he watches the home, sneaks in after they leave for the party and waits. To me it makes a lot more sense than parents who adored the kid getting mad cause she wet the bed and killing her. People like this ARE among us.:behindbar
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Maybe that's what I can't wrap my head around Tex. I just CANNOT believe that someone would murder their child because they wet the bed. Especially a parent that doted on her child. Maybe if there was an another motive, but bed wetting??? That's all Steve Thomas could come up with?? I think it is more likely some sick pedophile killed her then her mother because she wet the bed.
 
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