The Ramsey case in general

Inherent bias.

I think we all need to get used to the inherent bias in these programmes published.
It's not like they can point the finger at anyone without being sued.
Therefore, there is inherent bias in anything we see broadcast. Its for them to make money, not to be an impartial presenter of the facts.
 
You worked 40 homicides.
How does the door get latched from the other side of the door while escaping through the basement?
How does the dirt get on the shoes after walking around inside?

The simplest explanation is that someone latched the basement door from the inside.
Dirt could not have got on the suitcase while escaping. Its not possible
If you believe it is an intruder then the only way the dirt can get on the suitcase is while entering the premises.
Then why was the suitcase under the window? Where are the footmarks inside? Left dirt all over a suitcase but nothing on the floor!

The simplest explanation is that what ever happened to Jon Benoit did not happen this way. You would think John Smit, the Sherlock Holmes of Detectives would realise this. I have my suspicions about what happened. I am pretty sure her parents did not kill her.
I didn't know about the door being latched from the inside of the (wine room?) I agree the suitcase doesn't make sense. I don't know if the dirt they showed on it is connected or not, but the glass should have fallen off if it was there from a broken window, when it was moved. And a suitcase of that size wouldn't hold a grown man as a step up to the basement window, I think it would fall over. But I can be wrong, I was not there to test this. Also I am assuming it is a grown man that was supposed to use it.
The biggest hurdled I have is that a mother would find a her 6 year old daughter, who she loved and dotted on unconscious, still alive, and decide to make a garrote and finish her off. Her eyes had blood in them, so we know she was alive when it was used. Think of the things a mom has to do to her own baby to do a cover up of this crime. That is what I don't buy. I think a mom would call 911, not SA her with a paint brush, strangle her with an elaborate garrote and put duct tape on her mouth and wrap her in a blanket for her husband to have to find.
 
I didn't know about the door being latched from the inside of the (wine room?) I agree the suitcase doesn't make sense. I don't know if the dirt they showed on it is connected or not, but the glass should have fallen off if it was there from a broken window, when it was moved. And a suitcase of that size wouldn't hold a grown man as a step up to the basement window, I think it would fall over. But I can be wrong, I was not there to test this. Also I am assuming it is a grown man that was supposed to use it.
The biggest hurdled I have is that a mother would find a her 6 year old daughter, who she loved and dotted on unconscious, still alive, and decide to make a garrote and finish her off. Her eyes had blood in them, so we know she was alive when it was used. Think of the things a mom has to do to her own baby to do a cover up of this crime. That is what I don't buy. I think a mom would call 911, not SA her with a paint brush, strangle her with an elaborate garrote and put duct tape on her mouth and wrap her in a blanket for her husband to have to find.
Why did you bring up Patsy? Does the evidence suggest to you that it was staged as many believe? You need to familiarise yourself with the latest understanding of petechial haemorrhage. If you look at the photos of JBR, it is extremely mild. This level could of occurred just by coughing. It can occur in those that were not strangled, quite commonly in children who die.

In fact the lack of significant mucosal haemorrhage in this case is quite startling for someone garrotted to death. You have expertise in investigating murders, I have expertise in this area. No one strangled her to death. That's why the autopsy requires expert review taking into account what we now know about post mortem changes in children.

Even at the time the Coroner should have taken biopsy through the ligature mark to determine whether it was applied during life or after death. The fact that the body was released for burial before a more thorough assessment is one of the great 'stuff ups' in this case.

FYI, you have investigated Homicides. My expertise suggests that she was dead when the garrotte was applied.
 
I find ongoing PR support curious.

Why did PR marry JR? Lifestyle & social status.
What is PRs claim to fame? Living vicariously through her daughter's pageant life.

I don't find her values or motivations to be in question. So what was her role?

Following the M Soto case, i've been thinking of PR in terms of JS. That to some degree she knew, understood what was happening, and had a purpose, maybe not obvious for not reporting it. It ultimately may not serve her big picture purpose to ruin JR & dismantle the life she knew. She would have to, at best, start over.

JBR served different purposes for each parent and she ended up the victim in a murder mystery. Still lots of questions and i'm not sure where Love fits in.
 
I find ongoing PR support curious.

Why did PR marry JR? Lifestyle & social status.
What is PRs claim to fame? Living vicariously through her daughter's pageant life.

I don't find her values or motivations to be in question. So what was her role?

Following the M Soto case, i've been thinking of PR in terms of JS. That to some degree she knew, understood what was happening, and had a purpose, maybe not obvious for not reporting it. It ultimately may not serve her big picture purpose to ruin JR & dismantle the life she knew. She would have to, at best, start over.

JBR served different purposes for each parent and she ended up the victim in a murder mystery. Still lots of questions and i'm not sure where Love fits in.
I don't think there is any good evidence to point the finger at any specific individual. Family member or stranger. It is one of those cases I doubt will ever be solved. I think that making judgements based on behaviour pre murder is likely to cloud the issues. There is so much about the actual evidence that remains unresolved imho.
 
I just finished watching the Netflix special.

Admittedly, I haven't been following this case closely over the years. I'm sure others are far more educated on it.

Here's some observations/questions:

The garotte. I got the impression that you'd have to have a certain level of knowledge about knots to make such a thing. Who would have the knowledge to make one? The internet hadn't been around for very long back then. They seem to be used for just one purpose - to kill/assassinate.

If the perp was an intruder and kidnapped JBR, was she taken away and brought back deceased after the family notified police? I know they didn't search the whole house initially, but was there any evidence of her being moved and brought back?

There were signs of a stun gun being used on her? I hadn't heard that before.

Had the perp been inside the house before to get familiar with the layout? Perhaps sneaked around while everyone was home, hence never setting off alarms? Perhaps night vision goggles used to avoid using a flashlight?
The "garotte" devise has been called everything from a garotte to a boy scout toggle rope. Fibers consistent with what Patsy was wearing were found inside the knots.

After Patsy called police she also called numerous friends over- the house was swarming with people and there would be no logical way someone could sneak back in and out.

She had abrasions that the source of have not been identified. A stun gun has been speculated to help promote an intruder theory, but if you think about it, it's the last thing you would want to use on a child in a kidnapping, unless you want there to be a lot of screaming and noise. These marks have also been speculated to have come from toy train tracks that were in the basement.
 
The "garotte" devise has been called everything from a garotte to a boy scout toggle rope. Fibers consistent with what Patsy was wearing were found inside the knots.

After Patsy called police she also called numerous friends over- the house was swarming with people and there would be no logical way someone could sneak back in and out.

She had abrasions that the source of have not been identified. A stun gun has been speculated to help promote an intruder theory, but if you think about it, it's the last thing you would want to use on a child in a kidnapping, unless you want there to be a lot of screaming and noise. These marks have also been speculated to have come from toy train tracks that were in the basement.
Except the train tracks in the Netflix video had three metal parts. Two tracks and the electrical ? conductor. Until I saw those tracks on Netflix, I too thought they represented the cause of the abrasions identified. I am not so sure now.

On reflection it was '0' gauge track. I guess there are two points on each end.

Image.jpeg
 
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Why did you bring up Patsy? Does the evidence suggest to you that it was staged as many believe? You need to familiarise yourself with the latest understanding of petechial haemorrhage. If you look at the photos of JBR, it is extremely mild. This level could of occurred just by coughing. It can occur in those that were not strangled, quite commonly in children who die.

In fact the lack of significant mucosal haemorrhage in this case is quite startling for someone garrotted to death. You have expertise in investigating murders, I have expertise in this area. No one strangled her to death. That's why the autopsy requires expert review taking into account what we now know about post mortem changes in children.

Even at the time the Coroner should have taken biopsy through the ligature mark to determine whether it was applied during life or after death. The fact that the body was released for burial before a more thorough assessment is one of the great 'stuff ups' in this case.

FYI, you have investigated Homicides. My expertise suggests that she was dead when the garrotte was applied.

there are 2 parts to this, I agree with the expertise doing this interview. But that is just me, you are entitled to your own opinion, we all are, that is why we are here. I don't know this case well, and I learned a few things from you all and the podcasts. I don't try to know every aspect in a case such as petechial hemorrhage because we have a very good ME. I also don't have access to this case file, I didn't attend the autopsy or listen to every person they interviewed. there are many moving parts to any homicide. If you know this for a fact, that she was deceased when she was being strangled or the garrote was used on her, you should contact someone working the case and tell them and how you know this. Please watch the podcast it is very informative, if you have time.
 
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After seeing the Netflix 3 parter?
My opinions?

Boulder cops messed up. Cops continued to mess up and focused on the parents.

The family didn’t do it.

The only thing Patsy was guilty of was wanting everything for her kids. She wasn’t some evil, calm, know it all, sadistic mastermind who snapped. She was a mom who believed in matching sweaters, staged pictures of her kids, pageantry. Jon and Patsy were blindsided with love for their kids. Someone noticed their blind spots and the fact that this family was in a bubble. Someone preyed on them in the worst way by killing their 6 year old.
 
After seeing the Netflix 3 parter?
My opinions?

Boulder cops messed up. Cops continued to mess up and focused on the parents.

The family didn’t do it.

The only thing Patsy was guilty of was wanting everything for her kids. She wasn’t some evil, calm, know it all, sadistic mastermind who snapped. She was a mom who believed in matching sweaters, staged pictures of her kids, pageantry. Jon and Patsy were blindsided with love for their kids. Someone noticed their blind spots and the fact that this family was in a bubble. Someone preyed on them in the worst way by killing their 6 year old.
thank you ditto for sure. I watched it, came here, listened to the podcast above you post and knew the family didn't do this. They were all victims. It always felt wrong that they could act in this manner after her discovery.
 
Judyx3, the very things that you believe prove love, look to some of us as evidence of the opposite.

I think there was a lot of "messing up", but a lot of that happened at the level of the DA, for various reasons.

I tend to make it a point not to watch NF productions about true crime, because they tend to all be the same for me: They skew toward innocence of the accused. Name a case, it's the same....
 
I don't think the parents had anything to do with the murder. John Ramsey was on top of the world in 1996. He was President of Access Graphics, a company that grossed over $1 billion dollars per year. A subsidiary of Lockheed Martin. He was named Entrepreneur of the year. The murderer was someone close to him that was jealous of his success. Not his wife because his success was her success too. Maybe someone who felt entitled to some of his money and wasn't getting any of it.

This was his second family. He has an ex-wife and three other children with her.
 
I don't think the parents had anything to do with the murder. John Ramsey was on top of the world in 1996. He was President of Access Graphics, a company that grossed over $1 billion dollars per year. A subsidiary of Lockheed Martin. He was named Entrepreneur of the year. The murderer was someone close to him that was jealous of his success. Not his wife because his success was her success too. Maybe someone who felt entitled to some of his money and wasn't getting any of it.

This was his second family. He has an ex-wife and three other children with her.
I had started to be a crime junkie due to the JB Ramsey case many moons ago, I joined Websleuths and I am happy to be here after many years. I Have always had the thought of How JB got the severe head injury. JB wet the bed after they got home. Patsy was angry and shoved JB in the bathroom, I believe she hit her head on the toilet or tub. MO
 
I don't think there is any good evidence to point the finger at any specific individual. Family member or stranger. It is one of those cases I doubt will ever be solved. I think that making judgements based on behaviour pre murder is likely to cloud the issues. There is so much about the actual evidence that remains unresolved imho.
Agreed. A lot of facts in the case are weird (a ransom note that quotes a Danny Devito movie?), but they seem to draw attention inside the household without actually implicating anyone in particular. I haven't seen enough publicly-available evidence against any one person that would even come close to passing the reasonable doubt standard if I were a juror; in fact, I haven't seen enough to pass the preponderance of evidence standard needed for wrongful death.

The $118k ransom comes to mind. John's bonus amount wasn't something widely known, but at the same time, there's plenty of plausible scenarios where someone could've gotten wind of it. John could've mentioned it to a colleague over lunch, and someone at a nearby table could've overheard. Patsy could've had the same conversation with a friend. They certainly discussed it with each other at some point, and who knows who else was in the room at the time. To the perpetrator, that would be the perfect opportunity to point suspicion inward. At the same time, you could also say that it would be hard to imagine either parent being stupid enough to write something so specific that it obviously would've drawn suspicion upon themselves.

Was Patsy's behavior odd for someone who's lost a child? Perhaps, I dunno. Obviously, that alone isn't evidence of guilt, although it can point an investigation in the right direction. Did she crave attention (from the media in this case)? Well, this is a Miss WV we're talking about, so that part didn't strike me as unusual. As far as suspicious behavior, let's just say she's no Casey Anthony.

Obviously, the media played a huge part in shaping the narrative surrounding this case, and as usual, they were more interested in covering a story that attracted viewers than finding the truth. The John Mark Carr incident made it clear what the media's intentions were. After a decade of obsessing over every piece of "evidence" - no matter how real, imagined, or insignificant - they abandoned the entire narrative and switched to, "OK, we found the guy!" This despite not seeing any evidence against him, looking into his contradictory statements, or even reading his nonsensical story that seemed to be a sick man's fantasy altered to fit the known evidence. He was simply a walking pedo stereotype. Whereas most walk amongst us unnoticed, if you passed this guy while on the sidewalk with your children, you'd take one look at him and cross the street. For a fleeting moment, the media was apologetic to the parents. I distinctly remember Ashley Banfield seemingly apologizing for the whole media, saying how sorry she was that they pointed the finger at the parents for 10 years. Within days, they were forced to take a more cautious tone, after John Ramsey said not to jump to conclusions and Carr's family saying that he was in Alabama the whole time. Once the DNA exonerated him, they resumed their prior narrative like nothing happened.

I'm not saying that nobody in the household could have been involved, either. We simply don't know. Focusing on evidence that's been discussed to death but doesn't really lead anywhere runs the risk of implicating the innocent based on hearsay - think Jason Simpson ("they wore the same hat!"). Sadly, I think that this case will never truly be solved. If there were flaws with the DNA, the only thing that (IMO) could save this case is a match with someone local. If the perpetrator was a repeat offender, they'd already be in the system, so the chances of finding anyone new are slim.
 
It does to me as well. I suspect the killer was either in his late teens or early twenties, which would also explain the movie references. He would be in the target demographic for those.
'You do this....she dies! You do that....she dies!' Reminds me of the original Dirty Harry movie where the killer wrote the kidnapping note to the police. Maybe that stuck in JR's memory of films
 
I don't think the parents had anything to do with the murder. John Ramsey was on top of the world in 1996. He was President of Access Graphics, a company that grossed over $1 billion dollars per year. A subsidiary of Lockheed Martin. He was named Entrepreneur of the year. The murderer was someone close to him that was jealous of his success. Not his wife because his success was her success too. Maybe someone who felt entitled to some of his money and wasn't getting any of it.

This was his second family. He has an ex-wife and three other children with her.
I agree, to have all that success happen could've motivated someone who carried resentment - both business and personal.

I think it was someone close to the family or John himself in some form, so not a random intruder but possibly known to the family. I think JBR possibly recognized the person so wasn't scared at first. JMO MOO
 
I don't think there is any good evidence to point the finger at any specific individual. Family member or stranger. It is one of those cases I doubt will ever be solved. I think that making judgements based on behaviour pre murder is likely to cloud the issues. There is so much about the actual evidence that remains unresolved imho.
Correct. Every theory no matter how plausible at first glance has a giant hole in it somewhere. If we ever do find it solved the missing puzzle piece(s) will be coming from so far out in left field that even the jaws of the most astute sleuths out there will be dropping through the floor.
 

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