The Ramseys are Cleared

[Linda7NJ]

Her doctor said nothing was unusual.

HTH

her doctor never looked, he didn't do an internal exam

 

[Linda7NJ]

There are sick people who drift around killing girls:

Tommy Lynn Sells


Lexington, Kentucky: On May 13, 1999, he raped and killed 13-year-old Haley McHone. "He said he was sitting by the railroad tracks, watching her play on some swings, and he decided at that moment to rape and kill her.

Del Rio, Texas:
Sells climbed into the home through a window and went into a bedroom where 13-year-old Kaylene Harris was sleeping in a bunk bed with her friend Krystal Surles, 10. Sells reached into the lower bunk with a knife and cut Kaylene's throat, killing her. Then he slashed Krystal's throat and fled. But Krystal survived. And from her hospital bed, Krystal - unable to talk because her vocal cords had been cut -used a pad and pencil to describe her assailant. At 6 a.m. on January 2, Ranger Allen and Lt. Larry Pope of the Val Verde County Sheriff's Department went to Sells' trailer in Del Rio and arrested him.

"He was calm, almost complacent when we began to question him," said Allen. "Then he said: 'I guess you want to know about the others.' " In the days that followed, Sells spelled out how he'd drifted across America, killing as he went often in a drunken or drug-induced haze.

He's on Texas Death Row since 2000 so he's got probably another 5 years til he gets the needle he so richly deserves.

Find me just ONE that lefrt behind a 3 page ransom note written while IN the house!

 

[LI_Mom]

Karr is just crazy enough...that he could have studied that RN....goodness knows he was obsessed with the case. He could have even practiced writing it like the RN author...which IMO is Patsy. But, I don't think that is too far fetched, especially since he "confessed" to the crime. He would have had to have known that they would make him give a handwriting sample.

That still leaves you with the comparison of his HS Yearbook writing.... years before anyone ever heard of Jonbenet.

I think people can show similarities in handwriting.... but then you have to narrow down the people who had the opportunity & the motive as well. And you have to look at evidence found at the scene of the crime.

 

[BBB167893]

So basically without the bed wetting theory there is no reason why she would kill her???

How much time you got?

Steve Thomas doesn't think there is ANY proof that JonBenet was molested by John. I quoted him yesterday with the link somewhere in this thread.

First of all, who said it HAD to be John. I've been over this with my brother a few times. And second, as our friend Wudge is so fond of pointing out, what does Thomas know? LOL

Just so you know what you are doing, you are factually claiming that JonBenet's doctor, Dr Beuf, was paid off by the Ramseys.

LinasK doesn't NEED me to defend what she says, so I won't. But I'm glad it was brought up.

Welcome to the party, LinasK!

So it's NOT fact right? Just speculation.

Whether he was paid or not can be chalked up to speculation, maybe. That he DID look the other way is a bit more dicey. Firstly, he said back in 1997 that he never performed an internal examination. Secondly, he hadn't seen her lately. Thirdly, pediatricians who are chummy with families can sometimes miss a few things. Case in point:

Ricky Holland's pediatrician also saw no signs of child abuse [Ricky Holland's parents have been of Ricky's death and the father has apologized for his role, leaving little doubt about their culpability.]. [http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20061115/NEWS99/61115011/1008/NEWS|convicted]

 

[TexMex]

No, I don't have a money trail, but it's obvious, why else would a panel of 9 doctors find vaginal trauma if there was none??? It also explains the frequent vaginal infections. Bubble bath does not.

Good Evening Miss Linda,

Maybe infections from the tights and tight fitting pagent costumes?

trutv jonbenet section:

Other stories claimed that the "vaginal abrasion" mentioned in the autopsy report suggested sexual abuse, however this conclusion is not supported by the balance of medical opinion. Dr. Thomas Henry, the Denver medical examiner states:

"From what is noted in the autopsy report, there is no evidence of injury to the anus, there is no evidence of injury to the skin around the vagina, the labia and there is no other indication of any healed scars in any of those areas. There is no other indication from the autopsy report at all that there is any other previous injuries that have healed in that particular area."

 

[Wudge]

You say. Come on, Wudge. Show me how aggressive the Boulder DA usually was. That's all. Show me their record of aggressive prosecution vs. weasly plea-bargaining. It can't be that hard.

Not only that, but a lot of evidence wasn't known until after the GJ was disbanded.

BTW, have you read what Michelle Czopek had to say?

As for Kane wanting an indictment, why don't we hear from him:
And anybody involved in this case would say the very fact that my finger was on the trigger, and if I wanted to pull the trigger at the end of the case the Grand Jury would have pulled it.

SNIP

He didn't come up with it. Dr. Richard Krugman did, a pediatric expert who called it "textbook toilet rage."

I've never said anywhere that Hunter was or was said to be an aggressive D.A.. But Kane (brought in from the Denver D.A.s office) was said to be just that.

As for hearing from Kane, after he failed to get the Grand Jury to indict the Ramseys, on August 30th, 2000, we did hear from him on Larry King's show.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0008/30/lkl.00.html


Regarding Dr. Krugman, I never heard or read that he accused Patsy Ramsey of killing Jon Benet as a result of "textbook toilet rage".

 

[TexMex]

Find me just ONE that lefrt behind a 3 page ransom note written while IN the house!

Hi NJLinda

Agree with that. But at the same time it makes no sense to kill your child then call police to your home with the body in it! IMO some predator obsessed enough with a child to enter a home might write a long ransom note while waiting for his prey to return.

Someone's DNA is mixed with that girls blood inside her underwear and on the outerwear which had been removed to abuse her. That DNA does not belong to the Ramseys

 

[MrsMush99]

SuperDave,

I never said it HAD to be John. LinasK mentioned that John was molesting her THAT's why I said what I said about Steven Thomas.

And if you want to give me your theory I am willing to listen.

 

[BBB167893]

That post is from one of Michael Tracey's crocks, Tex.

He's a fine pathologist, but he's not an abuse specialist. Some people are. Here's what they said:

Robert Kirschner, MD. University of Chicago, Department of Pathology.
1997 Statement. "The vaginal opening, according to Dr. Robert Kirschner of the University of Chicago's pathology department, was twice the normal size for six-year-olds. "The genital injuries indicate penetration," he says, "but probably not by a penis, and are evidence of molestation that night as well as previous molestation."

Virginia Rau of Dade County, Florida said she believed JonBenet had been sexually abused over time.

Dr. David Jones, Professor of Preventative Medicine and Biometrics at University of CO Health Sciences Center; Dr. James Monteleone, Professor of Pediatrics at St. Louis University School of Medicine (and Director of Child Protection Cardinal Glennon Children's Hospital); Dr. John McCann (see below); and Dr. Ronald Wright, former Medical Examiner, Cook County Illinois (Schiller 1999:437)

"In August, the Boulder police department contacted Dr. John McCann, one of the nation’s leading experts on child sexual abuse. McCann had agreed to assist the police department in determining if JonBenet had been a victim of sexual abuse during or before her murder. McCann was sent the autopsy report and photos (Bonita Papers).
General Findings. "According to McCann, examination findings that indicate chronic sexual abuse include the thickness of the rim of the hymen, irregularity of the edge of the hymen, the width or narrowness of the wall of the hymen, and exposure of structures of the vagina normally covered by the hymen. His report stated that there was evidence of prior hymeneal trauma as all of these criteria were seen in the post mortem examination of JonBenet" (Bonita Papers).
Specific Evidence of Prior Abuse. "There was a three dimensional thickening from inside to outside on the inferior hymeneal rim with a bruise apparent on the external surface of the hymen and a narrowing of the hymeneal rim from the edge of the hymen to where it attaches to the muscular portion of the vaginal openings. At the narrowing area, there appeared to be very little if any hymen present. There was also exposure of the vaginal rugae, a structure of the vagina which is normally covered by an intact hymen. The hymeneal orifice measured one centimeter which is abnormal or unusual for this particular age group and is further evidence of prior sexual abuse with a more recent injury as shown by the bruised area on the inferior hymeneal rim. A generalized increase in redness of the tissues of the vestibule was apparent, and small red flecks of blood were visible around the perineum and the external surface of the genitalia"

Holly Smith, head of Boulder County Sexual Abuse team, stated had found fecal staining in all of JBR's panties on the 3rd day of the investigation; in 2006 she stated: "There is this dynamic of children that have been sexually abused sometimes soiling themselves or urinating in their beds to keep someone who is hurting them at bay," explains Smith....While Smith points out there could be innocent explanations, this was the kind of information that raised questions."

I can keep going! So I'm really wonder what the hell people are talking about when they say, "oh, there's no real evidence of prior molestation." My fat Irish *advertiser censored** there isn't.

 

[Wudge]

Okay, better if I add "In My Opinion"??? Because that's what had to have happened. I do believe the Ramseys paid Dr. Beuf to look the other way.

For over a year, I've been staying on top of a very intriguing and sad on-line libel case. It involves a large number of law students, many of whom are from the very best schools. They erroneously thought that they were immune to being brought before the court for defamation. So far, five to six law students have had their careers either ended or severely damaged. I suspect there are another ten to fifteen law students (or lawyers) whose names have yet to be made public.

Caution would be prudent.

 

[wallflower67]

Maybe that's what I can't wrap my head around Tex. I just CANNOT believe that someone would murder their child because they wet the bed. Especially a parent that doted on her child. Maybe if there was an another motive, but bed wetting??? That's all Steve Thomas could come up with?? I think it is more likely some sick pedophile killed her then her mother because she wet the bed.

Many, maybe most, child abusers are people with anger control problems. They are like ticking time bombs. Occasionally, they lash out and slap the child, or hit him/her. Not a spanking, but a real loss of control. Blind rage. I don't know whether JBR wet the bed, or if she was just throwing a tantrum over something. I think Patsy lost control, shook her, or shoved her hard enough that she hit her head on the edge of something, furniture, bathroom, something.

I mentioned this in an earlier post. I only throw this out because this is what happened to me at the hands of my own mother. I don't think my mom is an evil person...just someone who had been abused herself, and probably had unrealistic expectations of how a child should behave. She was (and still is) a rager, and whenever I was misbehaving, I was, in her mind (and she told me as much) doing it to torture her.

It took a serious situation before she got enough self-control to stop physically abusing me. It was close to the scenario I described above. I was goofing around, not doing what I was told, and my mom lost it. Beat the he** out of me and nearly bashed my skull into the windo sill. the last part was by accident. She was just that out of control.

That's my theory. I was very lucky. JBR was not.

Then PR and JR went through all the staging bull***.

 

[TexMex]

That post is from one of Michael Tracey's crocks, Tex.

He's a fine pathologist, but he's not an abuse specialist. Some people are. Here's what they said:


I can keep going! So I'm really wonder what the hell people are talking about when they say, "oh, there's no real evidence of prior molestation." My fat Irish *advertiser censored** there isn't.

Snipped for space.

My post was from an article
By Marilyn Bardsley and Patrick Bellamy
at trutv crime library

IMO, "sexual abuse specialists" tend to always find sexual abuse. If they don't thay have no job!

A Medical Examiner has enough training to spot sex abuse in a child and this one saw nothing indicating chroic abuse.


Some kids don't wipe good

Makes me glad I don't do the laundry!

 

[Linda7NJ]

That post is from one of Michael Tracey's crocks, Tex.

He's a fine pathologist, but he's not an abuse specialist. Some people are. Here's what they said:

Robert Kirschner, MD. University of Chicago, Department of Pathology.
1997 Statement. "The vaginal opening, according to Dr. Robert Kirschner of the University of Chicago's pathology department, was twice the normal size for six-year-olds. "The genital injuries indicate penetration," he says, "but probably not by a penis, and are evidence of molestation that night as well as previous molestation."

Virginia Rau of Dade County, Florida said she believed JonBenet had been sexually abused over time.

Dr. David Jones, Professor of Preventative Medicine and Biometrics at University of CO Health Sciences Center; Dr. James Monteleone, Professor of Pediatrics at St. Louis University School of Medicine (and Director of Child Protection Cardinal Glennon Children's Hospital); Dr. John McCann (see below); and Dr. Ronald Wright, former Medical Examiner, Cook County Illinois (Schiller 1999:437)

"In August, the Boulder police department contacted Dr. John McCann, one of the nation’s leading experts on child sexual abuse. McCann had agreed to assist the police department in determining if JonBenet had been a victim of sexual abuse during or before her murder. McCann was sent the autopsy report and photos (Bonita Papers).
General Findings. "According to McCann, examination findings that indicate chronic sexual abuse include the thickness of the rim of the hymen, irregularity of the edge of the hymen, the width or narrowness of the wall of the hymen, and exposure of structures of the vagina normally covered by the hymen. His report stated that there was evidence of prior hymeneal trauma as all of these criteria were seen in the post mortem examination of JonBenet" (Bonita Papers).
Specific Evidence of Prior Abuse. "There was a three dimensional thickening from inside to outside on the inferior hymeneal rim with a bruise apparent on the external surface of the hymen and a narrowing of the hymeneal rim from the edge of the hymen to where it attaches to the muscular portion of the vaginal openings. At the narrowing area, there appeared to be very little if any hymen present. There was also exposure of the vaginal rugae, a structure of the vagina which is normally covered by an intact hymen. The hymeneal orifice measured one centimeter which is abnormal or unusual for this particular age group and is further evidence of prior sexual abuse with a more recent injury as shown by the bruised area on the inferior hymeneal rim. A generalized increase in redness of the tissues of the vestibule was apparent, and small red flecks of blood were visible around the perineum and the external surface of the genitalia"

Holly Smith, head of Boulder County Sexual Abuse team, stated had found fecal staining in all of JBR's panties on the 3rd day of the investigation; in 2006 she stated: "There is this dynamic of children that have been sexually abused sometimes soiling themselves or urinating in their beds to keep someone who is hurting them at bay," explains Smith....While Smith points out there could be innocent explanations, this was the kind of information that raised questions."

I can keep going! So I'm really wonder what the hell people are talking about when they say, "oh, there's no real evidence of prior molestation." My fat Irish *advertiser censored** there isn't.

SuperDave, I usually agree with you. In this instance...I simply can't say with any real certainty that she was chronically sexually abused. I've discussed this before here at great length. PLease see here... http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=942344&highlight=sexual+abuse#post942344 Start at post 338. I am not saying she wasn't...just we can not be certain.

 

[lilywhite]

Steve Thomas doesn't think there is ANY proof that JonBenet was molested by John. I quoted him yesterday with the link somewhere in this thread.

Keep in mind it's perfectly possible to be RDI and disagree with Steve Thomas.

 

[LI_Mom]

For over a year, I've been staying on top of a very intriguing and sad on-line libel case. It involves a large number of law students, many of whom are from the very best schools. They erroneously thought that they were immune to being brought before the court for defamation. So far, five to six law students have had their careers either ended or severely damaged. I suspect there are another ten to fifteen law students (or lawyers) whose names have yet to be made public.

Caution would be prudent.

I think that's wise advice....

it's always better to couch ones statements with a "I think" or "IMO" type of disclaimer.

 

[BBB167893]

I would like your personal theory. And I was just pointing out what Steve Thomas said since a lot of posters seem to admire him. I wasn't putting you ANYWHERE with Thomas.

I can see why people would admire him, MrsMush. There's something Shakespeareian about a guy who devotes his life to the system, only to find out the system is the real villain. As I've said, policemen believe in the law in a strangely innocent way.

I've never said anywhere that Hunter was or was said to be an aggressive D.A.. But Kane (brought in from the Denver D.A.s office) was said to be just that.

That's probably why they wanted him in the first place, Wudge. But don't forget, it was Hunter who ultimately had the final word on whether or not to file charges. Don't forget one VITALLY important thing here: under Colorado law, you have to decide who to charge with what. That's not just a legal nicety, either. You HAVE to decide who did what specifically. They could never do that in this case. That's why they were never charged, Wudge, and that's NOT just my opinion. In cases like this, you get convictions by jailing the suspects and seeing which one will sell the other one out first. Ask Joel Steinberg and Hedda Nusbaum if you don't believe me. Or ask the former federal prosecutor who said the same thing on MSNBC (Not related to this case, btw). The cops WANTED to do that. Hunter, mr Great Society himself, shot it down. Too bad. That's why they were never charged, and I'm willing to state that as fact any time. How's THAT?

I never said it HAD to be John. LinasK mentioned that John was molesting her THAT's why I said what I said about Steven Thomas.

Fine, fine. I happen to agree with LinasK, but my brother is one of those guys who occasionally pulls me back from that. "Guv," he says, "it didn't have to be John, did it?"

I suppose not.

And if you want to give me your theory I am willing to listen.

Uh, not so much theory as idle speculation (that word again!). Sometimes i get this picture in my head:

JB: Mommy, I gotta tell you somethin'

Patsy: What, honey?

JB: Last night...

Patsy: WHAT?! You little liar! BAM! Dead. I'll be back with more later on.

Someone's DNA is mixed with that girls blood inside her underwear and on the outerwear which had been removed to abuse her. That DNA does not belong to the Ramseys

DNA which could have come from anywhere. Match it to a perp and we'll call it quits, deal?

But at the same time it makes no sense to kill your child then call police to your home with the body in it!

Since when does a parent killing a child EVER make sense, Tex? And I'm not just saying that, either. Killing a child NEVER makes any sense to me. And the day it does, I will PRAY for death!

 

[TexMex]

I think that's wise advice....

it's always better to couch ones statements with a "I think" or "IMO" type of disclaimer.

True That LI Mom!

JMO, MOO, IMO, JMHO, IMHO

 

[lilywhite]

"From what is noted in the autopsy report, there is no evidence of injury to the anus, there is no evidence of injury to the skin around the vagina, the labia and there is no other indication of any healed scars in any of those areas. There is no other indication from the autopsy report at all that there is any other previous injuries that have healed in that particular area."

Take it from me, sexual molestation is perfectly possible even given the above. Digital penetration, for example, leaves no (physical) scars or signs -- on the outside. Which brings us back to that eroded hymen...

 

[Wudge]

I think that's wise advice....

it's always better to couch ones statements with a "I think" or "IMO" type of disclaimer.

I believe that to be far more appropriate, prudent and wise.

 

[lilywhite]

I think that's wise advice....

it's always better to couch ones statements with a "I think" or "IMO" type of disclaimer.

This may be true but Wudge threatening LinaSK was out of line, IMO.