The Red Turtleneck

[Solace]

I wonder if she wore the red shirt under the white one...or,it could have been put on her b/f bed in order to help shorten ready time the next morning.

I beleive BR was being honest;I don't know what to think about SS though..she seems pretty flaky,so who knows.She could have just been saying it in the R's defense.

I think the red turtleneck was a "cause" of an argument sometime Christmas day and Patsy decided to relent and it was thrown to the side in a ball. I do not think she tried to dress her that night. A turtleneck is more than likely not the type of garment you would want a child to sleep in, most times anyway. It is too tight. I don't think she would have gone for it. I think she wore the white shirt to the party and was killed in it.

Susan Stine may have seen her asleep and then she woke up on the second visit and walked to the house to deliver presents with Patsy. Burke says this. So I think she walked into the house also.

What do you think about John's secretary saying that someone told her tlhat Patsy caught John in a sexual situation with JonBenet and went to hit John and got JonBenet.

I realize that she is passing a test that just says she is telling the truth about what she heard, but it is intersting and I was wondering if you know of anything else about it, say, who told her this.

There is never enough information with this case. Someone heard, someone said, nobody ever goes on the record. Although Cyrill Wecht says in his book that one of the attorneys for Patsy said he knew Patsy did it, that they all knew she did it.

 

[JMO8778]

I think the red turtleneck was a "cause" of an argument sometime Christmas day and Patsy decided to relent and it was thrown to the side in a ball. I do not think she tried to dress her that night. A turtleneck is more than likely not the type of garment you would want a child to sleep in, most times anyway. It is too tight. I don't think she would have gone for it. I think she wore the white shirt to the party and was killed in it.

possibly,but Dr. Spitz says she was manually strangled with a shirt collar,and the 2 abrasions on the side are from knuckles.So I'm thinking,wouldn't they have changed this shirt,since the collar would be stretched and twisted,and the ligature was to mask the manual strangulation?

What do you think about John's secretary saying that someone told her tlhat Patsy caught John in a sexual situation with JonBenet and went to hit John and got JonBenet.

I realize that she is passing a test that just says she is telling the truth about what she heard, but it is intersting and I was wondering if you know of anything else about it, say, who told her this.

I recall reading that,but I wonder if that's just a story ? I can't see JR admitting he was sexually abusing JB. I think he would say that PR killed her on purpose b/f he would say something like that (?).

There is never enough information with this case. Someone heard, someone said, nobody ever goes on the record. Although Cyrill Wecht says in his book that one of the attorneys for Patsy said he knew Patsy did it, that they all knew she did it.

I need to read that one !

 

[Solace]

possibly,but Dr. Spitz says she was manually strangled with a shirt collar,and the 2 abrasions on the side are from knuckles.So I'm thinking,wouldn't they have changed this shirt,since the collar would be stretched and twisted,and the ligature was to mask the manual strangulation?


I recall reading that,but I wonder if that's just a story ? I can't see JR admitting he was sexually abusing JB. I think he would say that PR killed her on purpose b/f he would say something like that (?).

[/color] I need to read that one !

I don't think she is saying that John said that. She said she was told this, but does not say by whom. She passed the test in that what she said she was told appears to be true.

So Dr. Spitz says she was manually strangled with a shirt collar. So it looks like someone is fueled with rage and it does not stop there and she is either hit with something or she is flung against something hard. Steve Thomas says she was thrown against something hard and round, such as a bathtub or a sink. But when I look at the autopsy photo, the wound is so bad that it looks like she was almost shot and then had a resulting split. She was more than likely hit with something hard. The maglight was wiped clean of prints.

JMO, I think Patsy did it in a blind and I mean blind rage and then got control of herself when she saw JonBenet was not fighting her anymore, she was unconscious and on her way to death.

 

[JMO8778]

I don't think she is saying that John said that. She said she was told this, but does not say by whom. She passed the test in that what she said she was told appears to be true.

ok,thx.I thought she was directly told that.

So Dr. Spitz says she was manually strangled with a shirt collar. So it looks like someone is fueled with rage and it does not stop there and she is either hit with something or she is flung against something hard. Steve Thomas says she was thrown against something hard and round, such as a bathtub or a sink. But when I look at the autopsy photo, the wound is so bad that it looks like she was almost shot and then had a resulting split. She was more than likely hit with something hard. The maglight was wiped clean of prints.

JMO, I think Patsy did it in a blind and I mean blind rage and then got control of herself when she saw JonBenet was not fighting her anymore, she was unconscious and on her way to death.

my vote goes for the maglight;some think it was just used for staging in the kitchen,but I think PR likely got up with it to get JB up for her nighttime bathroom ritual,and it all started from there.

 

[Solace]

ok,thx.I thought she was directly told that.

my vote goes for the maglight;some think it was just used for staging in the kitchen,but I think PR likely got up with it to get JB up for her nighttime bathroom ritual,and it all started from there.

I agree, but what is your opinion on the flashlight. It was usually kept in the drawer by the kitchen (in the hall I believe). So why do you think Patsy had it upstairs. I know this is all supposition, but I am interested in what you think about the flashlight. I think it was used now. It was cleared of prints; use to think it was done for staging, but the wound is just too severe I think.

 

[JMO8778]

I agree, but what is your opinion on the flashlight. It was usually kept in the drawer by the kitchen (in the hall I believe). So why do you think Patsy had it upstairs. I know this is all supposition, but I am interested in what you think about the flashlight. I think it was used now. It was cleared of prints; use to think it was done for staging, but the wound is just too severe I think.

I think it's possible,(or more like probable?),that PR didn't go to bed that night(since she was wearing the same clothes she had on the night b/f,and they go with the fiber evidence as well);she was up doing last minute things for the trip.Possibly she got it out of the drawer and headed up to JB's room with it for the midnight toilet trip,so she didn't have to turn on the light(?)I think it was said the overhead light didn't work?

 

[UKGuy]

I think it's possible,(or more like probable?),that PR didn't go to bed that night(since she was wearing the same clothes she had on the night b/f,and they go with the fiber evidence as well);she was up doing last minute things for the trip.Possibly she got it out of the drawer and headed up to JB's room with it for the midnight toilet trip,so she didn't have to turn on the light(?)I think it was said the overhead light didn't work?

JMO8778,

Thats if JonBenet ever made it to her own bed? She may have been bed-sharing with someone else?

Its just as possible that it was taken out of the drawer to aid in the basement staging?



.

 

[Toltec]

FACT: In his chat with crimenews2000 Steve Thomas said that indeed JonBenet wore the white gap shirt to the Whites. Let's not speculate anymore...this is a fact.

Patsy's initial statements to police that JonBenet was wearing a red turtleneck and the subsequent questioning about the red turtleneck that caused Patsy to break down is indeed troubling.

We know that the kids were to get on the plane in their pajamas...hence the long johns. Her pink pajamas would not have been warm enough. The red turtleneck would have been warmer than the white gap shirt....so did Patsy put the red turtleneck on JonBenet after coming home?

Someone brought up the Stines...the last people the Ramseys came in contact with...

Why didn't Patsy call the Stines that morning? Was it because they knew more than the Whites and Fernies?

 

[UKGuy]

FACT: In his chat with crimenews2000 Steve Thomas said that indeed JonBenet wore the white gap shirt to the Whites. Let's not speculate anymore...this is a fact.

Patsy's initial statements to police that JonBenet was wearing a red turtleneck and the subsequent questioning about the red turtleneck that caused Patsy to break down is indeed troubling.

We know that the kids were to get on the plane in their pajamas...hence the long johns. Her pink pajamas would not have been warm enough. The red turtleneck would have been warmer than the white gap shirt....so did Patsy put the red turtleneck on JonBenet after coming home?

Someone brought up the Stines...the last people the Ramseys came in contact with...

Why didn't Patsy call the Stines that morning? Was it because they knew more than the Whites and Fernies?

Toltec,

In his chat with crimenews2000 Steve Thomas said that indeed JonBenet wore the white gap shirt to the Whites. Let's not speculate anymore...this is a fact.

Thanks seems if she had not maybe it would have leaked by now.

We know that the kids were to get on the plane in their pajamas...hence the long johns. Her pink pajamas would not have been warm enough. The red turtleneck would have been warmer than the white gap shirt....so did Patsy put the red turtleneck on JonBenet after coming home?

Maybe, but why not wait until she was ready for bed, it looks like the red turtleneck -played some kind of role?


.

 

[Solace]

Toltec,


Thanks seems if she had not maybe it would have leaked by now.


Maybe, but why not wait until she was ready for bed, it looks like the red turtleneck -played some kind of role?


.

What kind of a role though? If she had changed her into it when they got home and Jon Benet soiled it, it would have shown that. But if she had wanted to change her into it and JonBenet balked, it could have escalated into an argument where the shirt was thrown into a ball into the sink. Maybe she put it on her and JonBenet was angry and wanted it off and an argument ensued. Hence the strangling theory where the knuckles are imbedded into JonBenet's neck and then the argument escalates. Is this possible to you UK?

Another theory, ugh!

REMEMBER THOUGH THAT Patsy says she was wearing the red turtleneck that evening. Sooooo, maybe she did change her into it and an argument ensued and she remembered her wearing the turtleneck. What is it? We usually remember the last thing we do as opposed to what we want it to be.

She does cry when she sees a picture of it when being interviewed.

 

[UKGuy]

What kind of a role though? If she had changed her into it when they got home and Jon Benet soiled it, it would have shown that. But if she had wanted to change her into it and JonBenet balked, it could have escalated into an argument where the shirt was thrown into a ball into the sink. Maybe she put it on her and JonBenet was angry and wanted it off and an argument ensued. Hence the strangling theory where the knuckles are imbedded into JonBenet's neck and then the argument escalates. Is this possible to you UK?

Another theory, ugh!

REMEMBER THOUGH THAT Patsy says she was wearing the red turtleneck that evening. Sooooo, maybe she did change her into it and an argument ensued and she remembered her wearing the turtleneck. What is it? We usually remember the last thing we do as opposed to what we want it to be.

She does cry when she sees a picture of it when being interviewed.

Solace,

The crying may be dramatic we do not know. It seems reasonable to assume JonBenet may have been wearing the turtleneck when she wa strangled, until this is ruled out by other forensic evidence, but really any other garment riding high on her neck would serve the same purpose.

The other theory could be that the red turtleneck was part of a prior staging, this is why Patsy has to tell us that JonBenet wore it prior to leaving for the White's, because there is fresh dna on it?


.

 

[JMO8778]

JMO8778,

Thats if JonBenet ever made it to her own bed? She may have been bed-sharing with someone else?

Its just as possible that it was taken out of the drawer to aid in the basement staging?



.

anything's possible,but when you look at the fact the R's...even JR (in DOI) are trying to account for it for some reason(saying there was an argument over it),add to that they said she originally wore it to bed,and it seems to imply more than staging??? what exactly is it they were trying to account for???

 

[JMO8778]

FACT: In his chat with crimenews2000 Steve Thomas said that indeed JonBenet wore the white gap shirt to the Whites. Let's not speculate anymore...this is a fact.

I don't doubt that at all now,but is it possible she wore it under the white one,possibly with the neck rolled down?(to make it more comfortable).

Patsy's initial statements to police that JonBenet was wearing a red turtleneck and the subsequent questioning about the red turtleneck that caused Patsy to break down is indeed troubling.

it sure is.and why did they change their story about her wearing it as well? b/c they *needed to say she went straight to bed,imo,b/c it's obv. a lie that they say she did.that's one reason,are there possibly more reason(s)?

We know that the kids were to get on the plane in their pajamas...hence the long johns. Her pink pajamas would not have been warm enough. The red turtleneck would have been warmer than the white gap shirt....so did Patsy put the red turtleneck on JonBenet after coming home?

Someone brought up the Stines...the last people the Ramseys came in contact with...

Why didn't Patsy call the Stines that morning? Was it because they knew more than the Whites and Fernies?

seems that way,doesn't it.maybe JB was tired,irritable,and or crying/ upset then?

 

[Solace]

Solace,

The crying may be dramatic we do not know. It seems reasonable to assume JonBenet may have been wearing the turtleneck when she wa strangled, until this is ruled out by other forensic evidence, but really any other garment riding high on her neck would serve the same purpose.

The other theory could be that the red turtleneck was part of a prior staging, this is why Patsy has to tell us that JonBenet wore it prior to leaving for the White's, because there is fresh dna on it?


.

UK, I don't think Patsy thinks that far ahead as far as DNA goes. Because if she were that savvy, she would not have written that absurd ransom note.

 

[UKGuy]

UK, I don't think Patsy thinks that far ahead as far as DNA goes. Because if she were that savvy, she would not have written that absurd ransom note.

Solace,
Someone was savvy enough to remove their fingerprints from both the batteries and the outside of the flashlight, as well as wiping JonBenet down, to remove any forensic evidence, then wrap her in blankets and dump her in a remote location, well away from the probable place of death.


.

 

[Solace]

Solace,
Someone was savvy enough to remove their fingerprints from both the batteries and the outside of the flashlight, as well as wiping JonBenet down, to remove any forensic evidence, then wrap her in blankets and dump her in a remote location, well away from the probable place of death.


.

I understand that, but I do not think that Patsy would worry about DNA on a shirt. Wiping fingerprints from a flashlight is a basic preservation act and so is wiping her down, just for fibers, etc. But I don't believe she would think about DNA on a shirt. She made too many mistakes. If she were that precise, she would not have worn that sweater in the basement.

 

[Toltec]

Where does it say that JonBenet's red turtleneck was soiled? How could you soil a shirt? I know a child can wet the bed and her shirt...but soil it?

JMO...I do not think it is possible to wear a turtleneck under another shirt without the collar showing. It is almost impossible to keep the collar down.

If the story is true that JonBenet's red turtleneck was wet, than that explains alot of things.

Patsy awakens JonBenet to use the toilet. JonBenet is wearing the red turtleneck AND the pants found in her bathroom. Patsy places an uncooperating JonBenet on the toilet. She discovers JonBenet is wearing soiled panties. She then decides JonBenet needs some serious cleaning up before she puts her on the plane.

Patsy tells JonBenet to get undressed. She screams bloody murder when Patsy suggests she get in the tub for a quick bath. A scuffle ensues and that is when Patsy hits JonBenet over the head with the flashlight.

Listen Carefully! Soiled pants on the floor...balled-up red turtleneck on the counter suggests to me that a possible bath was going to take place.

 

[RTC]

seems like PR had to change the Turtleneck story because the intruder wouldnt have redressed her in her bedroom. another big blunder from her. when she grabbed the clothes from earlier she didnt have the undies because they were soiled. later in the wc when she was staging she realized JB didnt have undies on and decided to unwrap the Bloomies to cover her up, just like the blanket.
Does anyone think the PR couldnt carry JB down the stairs and into the basement by herself? was there enough light to see even though all lights in the house were turned off, even the outdoor porch lights that were usually on?

 

[Agatha_C]

seems like PR had to change the Turtleneck story because the intruder wouldnt have redressed her in her bedroom. another big blunder from her. when she grabbed the clothes from earlier she didnt have the undies because they were soiled. later in the wc when she was staging she realized JB didnt have undies on and decided to unwrap the Bloomies to cover her up, just like the blanket.
Does anyone think the PR couldnt carry JB down the stairs and into the basement by herself? was there enough light to see even though all lights in the house were turned off, even the outdoor porch lights that were usually on?

You know I read an interview with JR and he said PR had lost feeling in her feet and at times she suffered pain all due to the aggressive chemo. I think I might be able to find the link to those comments, I'll post them if I do.... This might have made it hard for PR to carry JB down stairs, but then I dont think she had too.

 

[Steely]

FACT: In his chat with crimenews2000 Steve Thomas said that indeed JonBenet wore the white gap shirt to the Whites. Let's not speculate anymore...this is a fact.

Patsy's initial statements to police that JonBenet was wearing a red turtleneck and the subsequent questioning about the red turtleneck that caused Patsy to break down is indeed troubling.

We know that the kids were to get on the plane in their pajamas...hence the long johns. Her pink pajamas would not have been warm enough. The red turtleneck would have been warmer than the white gap shirt....so did Patsy put the red turtleneck on JonBenet after coming home?

Someone brought up the Stines...the last people the Ramseys came in contact with...

Why didn't Patsy call the Stines that morning? Was it because they knew more than the Whites and Fernies?

This is what makes me think that PR put JB in that red turtleneck that night...PR said she wore it that night but then recanted. She said she wanted JB to wear it TO the Whites so she would match PR herself. Why? Because PR liked to get PHOTOS matching her kids (take a look at all the photos...this was PR's "thing" matching outfits for PHOTOS) but no photos have been found except for the quick Christmas am snapshots. JB also fought with her mother over what she would wear to the Christmas party on the 23rd. This was an issue between mother and daughter! Would PR let the day pass without getting Christmas photos with HER kids in the Christmas outfits she bought specifically for getting photos in matching outfits? I don't think so. The R's had a private plane and could take their kids to it in their jammies...how long would it take to get a few photos? I think she made JB put that red turtleneck on when they got home so she could get her Christmas photos with HER kids...and while PR was heating the curling iron and fixing her own make-up, JB spilled on the red turtleneck with milk and/or pineapple juice (so the red turtleneck was put on the counter in her bathroom balled up). The rest of the milk/juice was put in a sippy cup (by JR? who knew PR would be ticked she'd spilled on the argued about T neck and knew there would be "beep" to pay if JB also spilled in the living room.. or was it the den where they were building BR's toy?) Later, JB's bowl was cleaned but the pineapple bowl with BR's prints was left to show that BR was awake when they got home but JB was asleep. But this backfired when the autopsy showed JB ate pineapple.

Christmas day evening, JB went to get her hair done in HER MOTHER'S BATHROOM not her bathroom. Any evidence collected from PR's bathroom? Is this why PR said she dyed her hair that day (did she really dye her own hair on a regular basis? She could afford professional dying...I find this hard to believe) ...maybe she said she dyed her own hair that day to explain why bleach smell was in her bathroom from cleaning evidence from the child abuse/ accidental homicide in her bathroom? PR probably kept the hot curling iron in her own bathroom, I doubt she kept it in JB's bathroom.....and when JB wouldn't sit still, PR lost it and burned her with the curling iron and maybe choked her with the curling iron cord and then JB fell or was shoved into the bathtub (or toilet) IN PATSY'S BATHROOM. 10 percent of child abuse is from burning and injuries with defined borders tend to be intentional injuries. Accidents rarely leave patterned injuries. With curling iron burns to face, back and maybe neck (and perhaps with prior evidence of sex abuse)... the parents would be arrested on child abuse charges. What would save them from prosecution? Staging a kidnapping? What about a proper burial? A staged kidnapping and dumping of the body would deny them a proper burial. Could JR or PR accept that? What about a kidnapper/sex pervert who killed her. They'd have to stage it so nobody would believe a parent would or could do that to their child....

Take a look at the photos with JR's kids and his kids with PR. What do you see? HIS and OURS. I think PR did not want to leave her home to have another Christmas with JR's kids and I don't think she would let that Christmas pass without photos of HER and HER KIDS in HER HOME on Christmas. Photos were either taken and destroyed because they proved JB was not asleep or something in the photos would be a clue (present as weapon to inflict marks on JB) OR the video recorder batteries really were dead so PR was preparing to take photos Christmas night but JB squirmed when PR was trying to get her ready and PR was already pissed at JB for the My Twinn snub, refusal to wear red T-neck , and she stained the red turtleneck or refused to wear it AGAIN and PR went ballistic.

This is just one theory I'm working on that I think explains a lot of the evidence. Also...maybe with the red turtleneck wet with milk or pineapple juice, PR wanted JB to wear the red outfit for those Christmas photos. PR said she stopped to "fuss" with the red outfit the morning JB was found dead. Leaving on a trip but fussing at that hour with an outfit not being taken on that trip? I don't think so. That is just weird...stopping to fuss with that? What was she doing to that red outfit? Was it Christmas-y enough for photos?

I think JB's hair in ponytails was done by PR to either prepare for curling a quick up-do for photos (PR was a pro) or to hold the combs needed to place the hair extensions (or cascades or falls) in JB's hair for some quick Christmas photos. JB would still need her bangs curled so the curling iron would be hot for that. BR and JR could have been waiting downstairs and building the toy.... and then after JB was mortally hurt from fall...PR ran down and told BR to go to bed and they'd have to get photos later. Then...BR was the one who screamed when he found either his sister in the basement or his parents staging his sister in the basement. Just one scenario I'm working on, people. I'm not firm RDI. Interesting though that when I discuss my IDI theories...it is other IDI that argue with me about it more than the RDI do.