The Remains Discovery "Daisy Chain"

[Weffy]

snipped

NO... she did not give him a location where Caylee's body was, if that is what you meant. Those calls were recorded, and if she had given Lee a location to find Caylee's remains... the LE would have been informed and Caylee would have been found back then.... not in Dec.
Remember at this time, Casey was letting her family and everyone else believe Caylee was kidnapped... Lee was looking for a live Caylee, and trying to pinpoint where ZFG could have taken her.
I don't believe Casey ever told Lee or anybody else where she put Caylee's body. If she had, they would have found her before they did, and that would ensure that she would get the death penalty. She is not that stupid.

That's not really what I was referring to. Of course they aren't going to speak specifics now that they know everything will become public. I think she was dropping him subtle hints. Because everyone else obviously didn't put too much thought into that specific statement because I've heard people continously say... Why on earth would KC be stupid enough to leave the body that close to home,etc. But remember she was stupid enough to kill her own child IMO

 

[gibby207]

Do you recall when KC was out on bond, at home, and there were tons of protestors, well-wishers, as well as neighbors out and about on that street? I'm curious to know if MR was out there, out of interest, chatting with the neighbors, etc. What kind of conversations were had on that street at that time?

 

[Weffy]

IMHO, given that this conversation took place in July, I think LA was trying to do his best to tell KC she should and could try cooperating with LE more, without coming right out and saying so and causing her to fly off the handle with him.

I understand everyone 's view point as to how Lee was just trying to look for a live Caylee and encourage KC to cooperate with LE more. That sounds fine but if you actually look at the dialoge (sp?) between these two people they are speaking in code -- if you honestly wanted nothing more then to find your niece why would you speak in code to begin with? That's suspicious in itself. This took place end of July 26th to be exact...The MR happend to first make a report on August 13th??? Hmm maybe just a mere coinsidence I guess. We knew based upon this that KC was going to write some letters. If these two were being 100% why are they talking about evading something in the letter from JB? He's on KC's side that makes no logic sense for the other view points being said. KC has made it known to her family that she doesn't wish to speak with LE she doesn't trust them, remember?

 

[capps]

I posted the following piece of speculation yesterday evening but it kind of got swamped by a blizzard of other posts. I think it is interesting to stand back and see if we can trace the true "daisy chain" of information that led to the remains discovery, whether it be LP's theory or some other theory.

What follows is my theory - updated since I posted last night.

What we know is Kiomarie was interviewed at nearly 10PM on July 19. Kio grew up on Hopespring drive and her dad still lives there. Kio has a friend named Bailey who also lives on Hopespring very close to the Anthony's. Bailey had already spoken to Brian B. and learned he had spoken to LE about the shovel. So Kio and Brian get to talking about KC, and when Kio heard about the shovel, she starts thinking about the secret hiding area off Suburban. Bailey calls Brian and gets the detective's phone number, gives it to Kio, and Kio calls the detective. :clap:

Neighbors are obviously talking. It probably does not take long for word to spread about Kio's interview and suspicions about the woods off Suburban. Maybe neighbors kind of are convinced that the area is a high-probability area, but are afraid to spend a lot of time searching themselves because 1) they are neighbors and 2) they figure LE will be able to do it. :waitasec:

So LE does an initial search of the accessible areas (some of it was too wet), and they come up empty. TES comes out and searches same area - no luck. Problem is - as we know today - the body was not quite in the spot Kio had pointed out. In fact it was several hundred yards away, up the street close to Hopespring. :bang:

Neighbors though remain convinced that area is a highly probable area. They know of Kio's story. They know of the shovel. They know TES and LE could not get into all areas. They are unconvinced the unsuccessful searches to date have ruled out the area. :snooty:

Now throw into the mix speculation that the MR's supervisor is also a neighbor of the Anthony's. Since neighbor's are talking and still think the body could be found up there, the supervisor speaks to his good buddy the MR and asks him to take a look when he does his route. He may even have assigned him specifically to do that route in August just because he is trusted. An official utility vehicle parked up in that area would not look suspicious. :angel:

So the MR takes a look and finds a suspicious-looking bag. We know he called it in three times, and the bag was not located:

1. LE first says they searched and cleared the area (as noted above, they cleared an area several hundred yards away).
2. They go out again (possibly with a dog) and find nothing. Unknown exactly were this was done, but probably still a hundred yards or so away. If one listens to the MR 911 calls, the location description is vague enough to allow LE to miss the spot.
3. They go out a third and final time. MR points to the area and LE heads back, sees a big rattlesnake, and decides it might be best to come back later. Oh, and by the way, there is loads of garbage back there.

Fay comes in, floods the area, and no searches can be done until early November. Note that rumor has it Kronk was not on that route in Sept., Oct., or Nov., implying to me someone assigned to him that route to check things out.

This next bit of speculation is going to infuriate a lot of Lee haters here when they read what I am thinking. :scream: (I think Lee is getting a bum rap from the public).

Meantime, Lee, I believe, is not drinking the KC Koolaide the way Cindy is. He knows KC did something. He does not know the details, but has suspicions, and does his best to pull information from KC without raising her ire and having her shut him out. He loved Caylee and wants to know the truth. He gets enough KC code to believe her body is nearby, but again no details. :detective:

Lee becomes aware of Kio's and the neighbor's suspicions. With what KC implied, the general location makes perfect sense. He knows LE and TES searched in that area but maybe they were not in the right spot. Maybe he is involved in lining up other silent searches, including that of the MR, or maybe he just hears about the MR's finding and subsequent failure of LE to locate the body. On the one hand he knows LE and others have searched and declared it clear - should trust that coming from LE, right?? On the other hand, the MR did say he found something. After Fay, this gets filed in the back of his mind.

Meanwhile, Lee loves his mom but feels she is in a deep denial over KC's crime. He knows - feels - KC did something to Caylee. While mom is stuck in the first stage of grief (denial), Lee is entering the second stage (anger). It shows as he tries to protect the parents he loves, and the public backlash is vicious. He starts to drop from public view. He does not want to get caught up in the maelstrom Cindy is creating.

In early Nov. TES finally can get out and do a search. But they find nothing and pull out earlier than expected.

Bewildered, Lee talks to the PI working for his parents. I speculate the conversation went something like this:


Lee convinces PI Casey that Caylee is dead and they need to look for a body. So the two PIs hike up there two times to look and video-tape, and PI Casey goes up another two times alone. The information they have is that Caylee's body was found in August, but not recovered. They find nothing. PI Casey calls Lee several times and asks if he can help nail the exact spot down, because they are not seeing anything but thick brush and unrelated trash. Given only 10 minutes of video were recorded, none of the searches may have been very long.

They are very close, but not quite in the right spot, and they fail to locate the remains. They report back to Lee: nothing. :banghead:

Nejame catches wind that Lee sent the PIs up there and he decides he has had enough. Time to bail out. It appears the Anthony's privately think the child is dead but publicly berate LE for not searching for a live Caylee. Well, Lee believes she is dead, and probably George does too, but Cindy won't admit it. He's had enough and resigns. :furious:

At this point Lee is thinking: LE looked several times. TES looked several times. My PI looked several times. No one could find the bag. The only one who ever saw the bag was the MR. In order to put this thing to rest, we need him to look one more time.

Lee gets word back to the supervisor neighbor and tells him the PI's could find nothing. Can we get the MR back out there? So the supervisor reasigns the MR to the route and asks him to see if the bag is still there. The route is scheduled for the 11th of every month, so they have missed the November slot, but he'll be assigned to the route on Dec. 11.

The MR goes back on the route, finds the bag, sees the skull...and Caylee is brought home. :blowkiss:
Now one of the PIs brags to his good buddy LP about the trips they made to that same area and found nothing, and the circus begins again.

The key piece of the above puzzle is confirming or denying a link between the neighbors and the MR. The "supervisor as neighbor" is one possible link. Another possible link is "MR chats up neighbor". But a link needs to exist for the above theory to make sense.

The daisy chain, as I see it, is:

1. Kio - Bailey - Brian B. - Kio - detective - TES. Failure to find the remains starts a second chain.
2. Lee - neighbors - supervisor - MR - LE. Failure to find the remains starts a third chain.
3. TES. Failure to find the remains starts a fourth chain.
4. Lee - PI - Lee - supervisor - MR. Success.

IMHO

I love reading your posts JWG!

 

[amethyst221]

If the MR had no ties to the Anthony's or to the neighbors, how would he know about Kio's interview? The first document dump came over a month after the MR searched, actually a month after Fay.

I used that as an example, given the claims by DC. I think the meter reader has said it was fortuitous that he first saw something, and thereafter just continued to follow it up. It dragged on due to LE inability to find anything. This is in the category of "innocent" reason to search, and that's the basis of my distinction between the MR and the PI's.

 

[justbeachy]

I have a hard time wrapping my head around this vague notion of KC saying she was "close to home" and something about a lower left corner and Lee being able to determine exactly what she meant. Now, if there were more specifics that I'm not aware of, then maybe, but on this alone?

My brother and I are extremely close. He lives within walking distance of my house and comes over 4-5 times per week (he's single and he wants free food!). I consider him to be my best friend (and he considers me to be his). We have "codes" and inside jokes that only he and I get. If he told me that there was a giant bag of money "close to home" in the lower left corner...there is NO way I would be able to find it. Or even narrow it down to an acre of land. Even if the same scenario played out at my parent's house where we both grew up and he could give me more references to ("remember when Mark had that car accident?" or something like that)...it still would be extremely difficult to narrow it down to such a small area that ended up being where something was actually found!

I just think there is more to this...maybe a letter had more specific info? Someone had to have known *exactly* the area and not just some glob of clues. JMO.

 

[HeartBroken]

[/
Seriousley Serching: Weren't "familiar place" and "lower left" mentioned to Lee by Casey in one visit? I thought immediately it sounded as if someone were giving directions from a map instead of it being discussion of someone who knew the city well, as they both did. I thought it was quite odd at the time.

Standing in the A fam's backyard...Caylee was found in the "lower left" of the area which was very familiar to both Lee and Casey.
__________________
QUOTE]

"Snipped"

I thought this also - I think the orginal conversation was reagarding the Blackjet but, lowerleft, familiar place matches.

 

[mysteriew]

While the searches were going on the rumor went around that LE actually knew where Caylee's body was and was holding off for reasons of their own. At the time I discounted it because I couldn't believe they would do that.

But I am rethinking that now. Has it struck anyone as strange that a city employee just happened to "take a leak" there in that particular place? And that the city employee called his supervisor before calling 911 would fit right in if the super had assigned him to go to the scene and call in the report. Of course the fact that the MR had tried to make the reports in Aug. doesn't really fit in to this theory so I don't know.

 

[ROBLYN]

Weren't "familiar place" and "lower left" mentioned to Lee by Casey in one visit? I thought immediately it sounded as if someone were giving directions from a map instead of it being discussion of someone who knew the city well, as they both did. I thought it was quite odd at the time.

Standing in the A fam's backyard...Caylee was found in the "lower left" of the area which was very familiar to both Lee and Casey.

Seriously,

"familiar place" and "lower left" I have felt all along was her way of trying to tell LA where Caylee was located. "lower left" of the back yard, is one I hadn't thought of, good thought.
"lower left" tip of retention pond, "lower left" corner of woods, "lower left" from" Zone" hangout. sorry, I could go on and on...driving myself (insert squirrel joke) nuts.

JWG thank you for posting this thread, very interesting theory. :blowkiss:

 

[Devon]

A big difference, perhaps, with how I am looking at this is not as a conspiracy.

My guiding thoughts:

Lee, Kio, and the neighbors were all interviewed by LE. Lee several times. They are all talking amongst themselves - this is mentioned in several of the interviews. IMHO, they are all - including Lee - trying to help. They have given LE their best guesses.

The MR did not try to hide the fact he saw something - he called it in three times.

The PI's were not trying to do a clandestine search. They went up there in broad daylight multiple times with camcorders. When they did not find anything were they supposed to call that in and let LE know? "Hey guys...we looked in the same spot you did a bunch of times and could not find anything either."

JMO

I don't think there was any conspiracy either. I think rumours, theories and speculations were circulating and somehow reached the ears of the MR (possibly via his supervisor) and the A's P.I. (possibly via LA or any of the A's neighbours) and this led to interest in the wooded area and decisions to go take a look and satisfy their curiosity.

I really don't think that if the P.I. had been told specifically that Caylee's remains were in that area, that he would be searching it in broad daylight, telling another P.I who was apparently not his partner, or allowing him to video the search.

 

[natsound]

JWG, if you ever wrote a mystery book, I'd read it. I don't put much weight into the daisy chain theory right now, but you have a knack for shoring the pieces together!

 

[Weffy]

I have a hard time wrapping my head around this vague notion of KC saying she was "close to home" and something about a lower left corner and Lee being able to determine exactly what she meant. Now, if there were more specifics that I'm not aware of, then maybe, but on this alone?

My brother and I are extremely close. He lives within walking distance of my house and comes over 4-5 times per week (he's single and he wants free food!). I consider him to be my best friend (and he considers me to be his). We have "codes" and inside jokes that only he and I get. If he told me that there was a giant bag of money "close to home" in the lower left corner...there is NO way I would be able to find it. Or even narrow it down to an acre of land. Even if the same scenario played out at my parent's house where we both grew up and he could give me more references to ("remember when Mark had that car accident?" or something like that)...it still would be extremely difficult to narrow it down to such a small area that ended up being where something was actually found!

I just think there is more to this...maybe a letter had more specific info? Someone had to have known *exactly* the area and not just some glob of clues. JMO.

That's what I was thinking. Obviously a little bit more info would be more likely be included in the letter. She could used code names in the letter to identify people, places, or street names, etc that would have been familiar to LA and KC prior to all of this.

 

[passionflower]

Do you recall when KC was out on bond, at home, and there were tons of protestors, well-wishers, as well as neighbors out and about on that street? I'm curious to know if MR was out there, out of interest, chatting with the neighbors, etc. What kind of conversations were had on that street at that time?

this is my way of thinking about the daisy chain started way back in July.
And I feel it started with kc to la then went on from there (neighbors curiosity like us, etc)

 

[passionflower]

I don't think there was any conspiracy either. I think rumours, theories and speculations were circulating and somehow reached the ears of the MR (possibly via his supervisor) and the A's P.I. (possibly via LA or any of the A's neighbours) and this led to interest in the wooded area and decisions to go take a look and satisfy their curiosity.

I really don't think that if the P.I. had been told specifically that Caylee's remains were in that area, that he would be searching it in broad daylight, telling another P.I who was apparently not his partner, or allowing him to video the search.

just like a mosiac, the pieces are fitting together, yes I think theories circulated around just like on here. Maybe MR is a wser!

 

[Hot Dogs]

Standing in the A fam's backyard...Caylee was found in the "lower left" of the area which was very familiar to both Lee and Casey.

But standing at the A fam's front door looking out... "lower left" sends you where? :waitasec:

 

[justbeachy]

I would love to know what Mark Nejame knows. When he quit, he was very vague about why and said something about not being able to represent someone who doesn't listen to his advice. I remember him being on NG right after he quit and he was beating around the bush about stuff and using a lot of "I can't comment on that" remarks. IIRC, he resigned Nov 20? The timing of that is very suspect to me. I know that lawyer-client priviledge applies so we'll probably never know what he knows, but boy would I!!

 

[DotsEyes]

I am sticking to MR seeing or hearing something suspect and following up on it on his own; no "inside" information from the family or through any "daisy chain" led him there.

"We found Caylee and we are going to get her now", is from JH's mouth, DC denies this. I want to hear both sides of the story and sooner or later, I will - that is for certain.

The only person who knew where Caylee was located is KC. I do not think for a minute that GA, CA or LA knew and left her little body out there to rot and be eaten by animals.

 

[SleuthyMama]

JWG, your ability to develop theories and link events together is amazing. You blow me away every time. I think what you've laid out above is pretty plausible. But would you (or someone else who gets it) point out to me what would be the reason MR's supervisor would ask MR to check into this? I'm asking because that's the only part of your theory where I don't exactly see how the pieces could fit.

 

[Hot Dogs]

I am sticking to MR seeing or hearing something suspect and following up on it on his own; no "inside" information from the family or through any "daisy chain" led him there.

What are your feelings about the MR possibly telling other people the same thing that he told LE in those calls?

 

[PaulaF513]

Bolded italics by me. I would have done that too. I worked for a state agency for a long time. Following the chain of command would have been very important. You call your supervisor first.

The first 3 calls were not through his supervisor. Also, the person (supervisor) he spoke to on the last call did say something to the effect...."Hopespring...where I live...." it is not very clear, but words to that effect.

IMO, this meterman did not stumble upon these remains simply because he's a dedicated sleuth