The Rest of the Story...

[Glow]

Hi harleysnana,

Nice to hear your ideas. So does the law determine what is right morally?

In your opinion?

Thank you for sharing your thoughts :blowkiss:

 

[SewingDeb]

Glow,
I see you didn't deny being paid to do PR work. Does that mean you do PR for the FLDS in some form or another?

You said:
Both of those apply in OUR world. They are not applicable to the world of the FLDS.

I disagree. Being a FLDS member does not make the teenage girls more emotionally mature nor does it change the dangers to the young body to be pregnant.

Texas should have raised the age of consent a long time ago. I said that before. Do you know for a fact that no one is ever charged with statuatory rape for impregnating mainstream teens in Texas?

I believe in education and choices for children. I don't think being told who you are going to marry at any age is good nor does it represent freedom.

 

[Glow]

Glow,
I see you didn't deny being paid to do PR work. Does that mean you do PR for the FLDS in some form or another?.

I didnt deny it. I was using a tongue in cheek approach. Bad idea.


I dont work for the FLDS
I dont get paid by them
I dont know any of them
In fact, I have no interest in the FLDS per se

hope that is clearer!

You said:
Both of those apply in OUR world. They are not applicable to the world of the FLDS.

I disagree. Being a FLDS member does not make the teenage girls more emotionally mature nor does it change the dangers to the young body to be pregnant..

then why do you think that the body prepares to conceive a child each month at that age?

Who messed up with that? Evolution? Biology? God?

Texas should have raised the age of consent a long time ago. I said that before. Do you know for a fact that no one is ever charged with statuatory rape for impregnating mainstream teens in Texas?

I believe in education and choices for children. I don't think being told who you are going to marry at any age is good nor does it represent freedom.

I agree!

 

[Details]

Evolution. But it didn't mess up, exactly - it just hasn't caught up. Once upon a time, survival was very much in question, early childbirth was a survival benefit - so far as evolution is concerned, once you've reproduced, you don't matter much. It's an evolutionary plus to be able to reproduce young when necessary, when growing to adulthood may not happen.

But - are you really questioning all the science and psychology and saying that just because a 13 year old is physically capable of becoming pregnant, it's OK to make her pregnant? Really? If they're old enough, it's OK?

 

[Pandora]

then why do you think that the body prepares to conceive a child each month at that age?

Who messed up with that? Evolution? Biology? God?

I was having regular periods at 8. I think it is well-documented that menses have been occuring earlier and earlier. Once upon a time, 15-16 was normal onset.

 

[Pepper]

then why do you think that the body prepares to conceive a child each month at that age?

Who messed up with that? Evolution? Biology? God?

I was having regular periods at 8. I think it is well-documented that menses have been occuring earlier and earlier. Once upon a time, 15-16 was normal onset.

Frankly I think earlier menses is due to the hormones we feed cattle, chickens, etc. It certainly has nothing to do with when a child is emotionally mature enough to become a mother!

 

[Glow]

Evolution. But it didn't mess up, exactly - it just hasn't caught up. Once upon a time, survival was very much in question, early childbirth was a survival benefit - so far as evolution is concerned, once you've reproduced, you don't matter much. It's an evolutionary plus to be able to reproduce young when necessary, when growing to adulthood may not happen.

But - are you really questioning all the science and psychology and saying that just because a 13 year old is physically capable of becoming pregnant, it's OK to make her pregnant? Really? If they're old enough, it's OK?

Hi Details,

no, I am not saying its ok. I think it is a long standing issue and each society deals with it in its own way and time. I am a woman living in a "post feminist" American society. American women have fought for hard won rights such as the right to vote and the right to chose to have an abortion, among other things. That is our view and where we are at in the stream of time. That makes it easy to shudder in horror at the mere thought of a woman having her "rights" taken away or interfered with. I understand that. A couple hundred years ago, people looked at if differently. That is why the state laws on what constitutes a legally marriageable age are changing. I am just very cautious about condemning a way of life that I find foreign before I fully understand it. When I read that the FLDS had tons of pregnant teens that was distressing to me. When I read about the raid that was distressing to me.
So I decided to educate myself on both sides of the issue. I am bringing that information here to share and talk about with others so that I can learn from their points of view as well.

 

[Glow]

then why do you think that the body prepares to conceive a child each month at that age?

Who messed up with that? Evolution? Biology? God?

I was having regular periods at 8. I think it is well-documented that menses have been occuring earlier and earlier. Once upon a time, 15-16 was normal onset.

Yes that is a little young Pandora - bless your heart! The mean normal age has been around 12. But like Pepper said - hormonal bombardment via food as well as other factors are causing a shift in what was the norms.

 

[SewingDeb]

Glow, thanks for clearing that up. So why are you so defensive when it comes to the FLDS?

As for teen pregnancy, I agree with Pepper. Environmental causes have made menses come at an earlier age than ever before. In decades past, menses began at around age 16 - 18. I started at 16. Last week a ten year old gave birth in the US. That would have been unheard of in our grandmother's day.

Teenage pregnancies are high risk to the mother and child. For one thing, the mother is still growing and it could affect her future health. Here's a link for more information:

http://www.targetwoman.com/articles/teen-pregnancy.html

The health of a teen mother has a bearing on the baby. It has been noticed that teens are less likely to gain the adequate amount of weight during pregnancy thereby leading to low birth weight babies. Smoking increases the risks of miscarriage and other pregnancy complications such as still birth and premature birth. Teen pregnancy also runs the risk of pregnancy complications such as anemia, high blood pressure and premature labor. Babies born to teenage mothers were of low birth weight and sometimes had complications such as undeveloped organs and subsequent problems such as respiratory distress or vision loss. Consequences of teen pregnancy:

Higher levels of dropouts at high school.

Due to lack of adequate job skills, a teen mother may become dependent on welfare or live in poverty.

Lack of social support systems and parenting skills lead to a stressful situation arising out of a teen pregnancy
------

I have the same question as Details. Are you saying it is ok to get a girl pregnant as soon as she starts her period.

If so, why is it ok? Shouldn't she have a choice to wait until she is older and after she gets her education? Or do you not think education is important for females?

 

[SewingDeb]

Glow, I see that you answered Details that you don't think it's ok. If you feel that way, you should totally understand why the raid took place.

 

[SewingDeb]

I am also concerned about birth defects due to marrying in this same gene pool over and over. That was covered very well in another thread and the FLDS does have very high rates of fumerase deficiency due to inbreeding.

It doesn't help that in recent times, the younger boys are being kicked out and the children are being fathered by fewer and fewer men. It will be very hard for the FLDS parents not to be even more closely related as the years go by.

 

[Glow]

In my community that I live in we are a small town farming bunch. I was a citified green horn when I first came here 25 years ago. I didn't even know how to tell a bull from a cow...I thought if they had horns that meant they were a bull! I had a wonderful education ahead of me. I now know how to coax a cranky diesel tractor to start on a cold winter morning. I know that a cow who is going to need help calving will only calve on the coldest night of the year - in the rain. I know how to plant a garden, worm a horse and milk a cow. I am a regular font of knowledge, I am!


I have learned that farmers never do what they do for the money. They do it because their father did, and his father before him. They do it because they are in love with the land and the animals and the whole process of interacting with nature on a daily basis. I have raised my children much like the Amish and the FLDS in many ways. I didn't buy them lots of toys. It never felt "right" somehow. They had blocks and play dough and crayons and legos - just not the massive accumulation of plastic and gadgets that seem so popular. They did have horses to ride and a pool to swim in and 4 wheelers to ride across hundreds of acres of open field. And yes, they had the toy tractors. rakes and hoes that some were so aghast over the FLDS children having. Play is childs work and learning by doing seemed natural and normal. I never thought of that as child abuse until I saw that the FLDS did that and posters called it "abusive" My kids were teenagers before they ever played a video game except at their friends homes during sleep overs. When they finally got a Nintendo they had to buy it themselves-with their own money- which they earned from working. As for time playing it, well good luck with that, as they were outside working till dark or later depending on what crops were coming in and what the weather was doing.

Now they are all grown and love to sit around the dinner table at family gatherings and amaze their spouses and children with how "bad" they had it. I remember that feeling that way myself.

When I first married into a 3rd generation farming family I used to sit with my mouth agape in amazed awe just listening to the stories of what it took to immigrate here, learn the language and get a stake and get started. How young girls were cooks for the rich families in town and yes, they married and started their own homes sometimes as young as 14. My father in law left school after 7th grade because his father was struck by lightening while hand plowing a field. My father in law had to take over the farm, care for his pregnant mother and younger siblings. He was married when he was 17 and his wife was 16. In his 20's as a widower with two small children he survived by picking cherries and painting signs with a wooden stencil. Finally as the Depression eased its grip he was able to buy another piece of land with a gravel pit. He hand shoveled gravel and sold it buy the truck load until he had enough money to buy still more land. He remarried and had more children. I am lucky enough to have raised my sons in this farming lifestyle he built and passed on. I think for us, this will be the last generation that knows this way of life. the subdivisions are springing up around us and the handwriting is on the wall. I have been asked what I find in the FLDS that I identify with. I know it isnt the religion. It certainly isnt the marrying off of children. I think it has more to do with understanding a people who are clinging to a dying way of life. People that are fighting for what they believe to be right.

I dont think that cultural diversity means just the liberation of women, or gays getting the legal right to marry. I think it also means honoring the intention of the Constitution the way it was written. Every religion has its aspects that can appear to be weird. The Catholics believe wine turns into blood in their mouths and a wafer into flesh. Mormons believe that you can baptize dead people by proxy. The Amish refuse to join the modern world and prefer to stay a step behind. Sometimes religious beliefs verge on what might seem physically harmful. Jehovah's Witnesses refuse blood. Christian Scientists refuse most medical treatment and the Jews take a knife to their baby boys on the 8th day.

Many of those customs and there are many many more, seem strange and alarming on the surface. I think that we all owe it to ourselves to take a closer and more open minded look. The worst thing we could do is demand such a large degree of conformity that we completely lose the diversity and become just one homogenous lump of a country.

That is my most honest answer as to why I cant seem to turn away from this case.

 

[Truly]

Glow, I am a big fan of wholesome food, and country living, and all of the other good things you mention. There are plenty of people in America who value a simple country life. That is not the issue here. Nobody is trying to take that away.

The one thing that is most disturbing about the FLDS is that they have imprisoned their young daughters for generations and forced them to submit to sex with older male relatives. Can you please give us your opinion of this one aspect of this case. Thank you.

 

[Details]

If the FLDS were all about kids working like the kids on farms work - there would have been no raid. If the FLDS were about having children living in a strange culture dedicated to it's religion - there would have been no raid.

This case is not about anything other than child abuse - not a single thing.

 

[PSUfan]

Glow, I'm 54 years old and very aware of who the homeless people are. The girl you mentioned was not using good judgement in choosing the 24 year old homeless man as her partner for impregnation. Just goes to show there is a need for age of consent laws.

You said: The thing we do know is she was not "choosing" this.

My answer: Yes she was. It was entirely her choice. No one held a gun to her head or brainwashed her for her entire life that this was God's command. Media and peer pressure do factor in but her parents should have taught her not to give in to that pressure.

Texas finally got wise and raised the age of consent. Should have been done ages ago. Doesn't mean it was ever right for a 14 year old to be having sex and possibly getting pregnant or catching a STD. Kudos to Texas.

My guess is that you are a PR person for the FLDS. Am I right? You seem too intelligent to actually believe the arguments you are making.

I got a chuckle out of that... you honestly think the FLDS hired her to speak for them? Her join date is waaaay long ago. I will have to look at her posting history to see if her posting indicates a connection with the FlDS over the last several years.

 

[Truly]

I got a chuckle out of that... you honestly think the FLDS hired her to speak for them? Her join date is waaaay long ago. I will have to look at her posting history to see if her posting indicates a connection with the FlDS over the last several years.
[/b]

I honestly wondered the same as Deb, with no ill feelings, because there are thousands of threads here about children who have been abused, and I have only seen one person in one case jump up and say 'Oh, sure, the fathers molest the children...but quick look over here!..shiny thing!... pretty dresses!...religion!... Let's ignore the abuse!'

I do not understand why a person would be so focused on presenting the FLDS in a shining, glowing light, while at the same time absolutely ignoring the fact that they molest their own children. I have not seen Glow (or anyone else) defend any child molestors except for the FLDS. Glow does seem like a good and intelligent person, as Deb so kindly pointed out. I am guessing that Glow is perhaps concerned that somehow her lifestyle and/or community might feel threatened by CPS or 'the government'?

The only reason that Texas investigated is because the FLDS have been enslaving and raping their own children for generations. It is not freedom of religion to assault a child. Every child deserves to grow up and make their own choices about how to live their life. Parents who force their teenage daughters to be impregnated by older male relatives are denying their children the basics of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. That is the most basic right in America, and no one is entitled to forcibly enslave, rape, and impregnate anyone, much less their own child. The men of the FLDS are child molestors. There is no way to twist that into goodness.

 

[SewingDeb]

PSUFan, I didn't think to look at Glow's join date...lol. Now that I read about her life, I can see why she can identify with the FLDS and their life but I am sure her family was not about forcing marriage on young girls to older relatives.

Some PR companies do hire people to post the good side on the internet and I couldn't figure any other reason anyone would defend the FLDS way of life and ignore the bad things about it. She had already said she was not FLDS.

Truly, I'm glad I wasn't the only one who wondered. : )

You are so right that freedom of religion is not freedom to assault a child and that the FLDS are denying their children the basics of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. That just seems so strange in the land of the free.

I know I can't see any goodness in giving teenage daughters over to older male relatives for marriage and childbirth.

 

[Glow]

wow. I must be the most obtuse writer around since I was unable to communicate my main point apart from my ancedotal story. So here is the important part of my post that I failed abominably in making the first time around-

I dont think that cultural diversity means just the liberation of women, or gays getting the legal right to marry. I think it also means honoring the intention of the Constitution the way it was written. Every religion has its aspects that can appear to be weird. The Catholics believe wine turns into blood in their mouths and a wafer into flesh. Mormons believe that you can baptize dead people by proxy. The Amish refuse to join the modern world and prefer to stay a step behind. Sometimes religious beliefs verge on what might seem physically harmful. Jehovah's Witnesses refuse blood. Christian Scientists refuse most medical treatment and the Jews take a knife to their baby boys on the 8th day.

Many of those customs and there are many many more, seem strange and alarming on the surface. I think that we all owe it to ourselves to take a closer and more open minded look. The worst thing we could do is demand such a large degree of conformity that we completely lose the diversity and become just one homogenous lump of a country.

 

[Glow]

If the FLDS were all about kids working like the kids on farms work - there would have been no raid. If the FLDS were about having children living in a strange culture dedicated to it's religion - there would have been no raid.

This case is not about anything other than child abuse - not a single thing.

Hi Details,

You do know that CPS didnt find any abused children or any underaged pregnant teens, right?

 

[Glow]

PSUFan, I didn't think to look at Glow's join date...lol. Now that I read about her life, I can see why she can identify with the FLDS and their life but I am sure her family was not about forcing marriage on young girls to older relatives.

Some PR companies do hire people to post the good side on the internet and I couldn't figure any other reason anyone would defend the FLDS way of life and ignore the bad things about it. She had already said she was not FLDS.

Truly, I'm glad I wasn't the only one who wondered. : )

You are so right that freedom of religion is not freedom to assault a child and that the FLDS are denying their children the basics of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. That just seems so strange in the land of the free.

I know I can't see any goodness in giving teenage daughters over to older male relatives for marriage and childbirth.

Have you ever wondered why Carolyn Jessop allowed her teenaged daughter to go back into that life style without a fight?