The Rumor Mill -- unsubstantiated, yet possible relevant information

[deedee21]

Robert Anderson, what are your thoughts about LE refusal to release SG 911 tape? It was said in court that doing so would interfer with "That Case". Which case? Are they playing word games with the judge? This is the type of behavior that could cause some to believe the death of SG and LISK is related. OR are they trying to protect a Det who sent a bull--it letter to Newsday. John Ray would have a field day with him. A cop that was less than truthful. He would have to explain who instructed him to do that.

 

[Robert Anderson]

Robert Anderson, what are your thoughts about LE refusal to release SG 911 tape? It was said in court that doing so would interfer with "That Case". Which case? Are they playing word games with the judge? This is the type of behavior that could cause some to believe the death of SG and LISK is related. OR are they trying to protect a Det who sent a bull--it letter to Newsday.

I have a general rule about LE, and you may or may not agree with it. And that is I do not ascribe to malevolence what can be explained by bureaucracy. I think the SCPD - like the Feds - keep things sealed almost like a reflex. Kafkaesque at times.

I hope we get to hear it. The judge is clearly leaning that way.....It will be invaluable as the 911 call was open as SG ran around. We should be able to hear quite a bit of her interactions with others - whoever was in Brewers' house etc.

The call started at 4:51am and ended at 5:14am - meaning we should hear her talking to Gus and hopefully Gus talking to Pak.

And I don't have a low opinion of Vallone; I think hearing the call will bear out his assessment of it.

 

[Aleph]

Call it a hunch, but when I saw photos of the vegetation Shannon would have entered I could not (and still cannot) envision any earthly reason why I would go in there unless I was in fear of my life, or very stoned. Now, such a wide spread between possibilities (and theoretical ones, too) don't really get us too far in terms of process of elimination, but one thing I would point out is that while they are not mutually exclusive - you can quite easily be stoned and under threat, obviously, but equally it is quite possible to be so stoned that you BELIEVE you are under threat - either from someone who isn't there at all, or even from someone who is actually coming after you to try and help. I've seen it, and it's not pretty.

The removal of her jeans and them being found around half a mile from where her body ends up is a very curious detail - I don't really have a solution to propose but it is an aspect which certainly shouldn't be ignored. It is hard to envision any scenario whereby she was not the one who removed them herself for whatever reason, which again doesn't seem like a very rational thing to do for someone responding appropriately to a dire threat. Once again we come back to either the threat was there but she wasn't responding appropriately towards it, or the threat wasn't there at all which means she wasn't responding appropriately to her environment. And as an aside, if someone WAS chasing her presumably at a short distance and she stopped to remove her jeans, it seems odd they didn't manage to catch up with her then or shortly after but still needed another half a mile or so to do so.

Be it issues with her prescribed meds, or recreational drugs (and then be it PCP, Spice, Ketamine, or whatever), or alcohol, or a mental health crisis...etc...or a combination,nit nevertheless seems difficult to me to imagine that there wasn't SOMETHING up with Gilbert's brain chemistry at that point.

I happen to be acutely aware of issues of victim blaming, and of being disrespectful to the victims of crime in discussing their lives and so forth - but equally I don't really see why certain people with an interest in this case seem to see it as such an awful value judgement if anyone even entertains the possibility that Gilbert may have taken drugs on that night, as if they need to protect her reputation or something. Given her line of work I think it's more than likely she took most things she could get her hands on; I know I would. That doesn't make her a bad person, but we can go down a lot of blind alleys if we attempt to paint her as a saint.

And are some of the things that have been said about Dr Hackett without any proof (including on this thread) ethically any better? I'm not so sure.

I think it's almost universally accepted here that Shannan Gilbert probably took drugs that night. She was doing "work" that is almost impossible to endure sober. And drugs are part of the culture of prostitution, practically a tool of the trade. I don't think anybody here cares about that.

What I do object to (and I hear others here objecting to) is the idea that she was just a crazy person acting crazy when she was running in fear for her life. She ended up dead under mysterious circumstances, a short distance away from the bodies of other similar women who were unequivocally murdered. I don't know how she knew that she was in danger, but she knew. It feels unfair not to give her some credit for that, which the police and others have not done.

I don't know if that's even the argument you're making; I haven't been paying close attention to who is in this thread and it seems we have some new people, which is great. Welcome. But it's an argument that goes around every now and then and people here don't like it. Not that I speak for the group. MOO, etc.

 

[SearchingMike]

Not a crazy person acting crazy but reacting to a stimulant or a physical reaction to being off of her prescribes medication. We don't have to really debate whether or not she was on anti-psychotics.

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[PickleChris]

That spice crap was all the rage on LI back in 2010. Every gas station was selling it and I've seen people get real paranoid as well as faint, convulse, tremors.....Bad stuff.

 

[SearchingMike]

Not a crazy person acting crazy but reacting to a stimulant or a physical reaction to being off of her prescribes medication. We don't have to really debate whether or not she was on anti-psychotics.

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Or should have been under Dr.'s orders

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[SearchingMike]

Also, bath salts were prevent as well which can cause extreme psychosis

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[SearchingMike]

*prevalent

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[deedee21]

Seachingmike, do you find fault with Dr. Badens autopsy report? Im not suggesting the LISK killed SG. Maybe someone else did.

 

[Robert Anderson]

Not a crazy person acting crazy but reacting to a stimulant or a physical reaction to being off of her prescribes medication. We don't have to really debate whether or not she was on anti-psychotics.

She was bipolar and not taking her meds. Saying the timeline of the evening strongly points to a psychotic break is NOT an insult to her memory. Her death was a tragedy. But it is even worse if we refuse to discuss the truth because it is unpopular.

Nothing she did after initiating that 911 call is consistent with seeking safety. Didn't get into the car with Pak and get the hell out of OB, ran past the exit and further into the community. Didn't stay with Gus and then ran into the marsh/brambles/thicket at low tide. I don't doubt she was in fear for her life but the actions aren't consistent with seeking safety. That shouldn't be controversial or seen as degrading her memory. Bad things happen to good people too.

 

[LindsayLohan6]

Such an exaggeration...you know how many people are "diagnosed" as bipolar that don't run freak out that someone's trying to kill them and run into a marsh and drown themselves. Her behavior makes sense for someone experience extreme fear. She saw something and she didn't know who she could trust, Pak, Colette anyone. Haven't you ever seen a horror movie where the person realizes everyone in a town is actually evil and trying to kill them? They freak out an run because they don't know who they can trust

 

[SearchingMike]

Seachingmike, do you find fault with Dr. Badens autopsy report? Im not suggesting the LISK killed SG. Maybe someone else did.

Dr. Baden's full report has not been released to my knowledge which I find strange. Also, the question of the hyoid bone is addressed in the talk presented by Robert Anderson. Dr. Tumosa of the Baltimore ME office as well agrees that the hyoid bone can be damaged by animals such as the massive rats that roam OB.

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[SearchingMike]

As far as her drowning, the point of the tide when she entered the marsh etc. is also discussed in the talk.

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[LindsayLohan6]

There are also those like the case in Florida where was called a zombie. Stripped naked and ate a homeless man's face

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Could have been some compound that they weren't able to identify with tests. wiki:While police sources speculated that the use of a legal recreational synthetic stimulant party drug such as "bath salts" (which have a notorious reputation for the psychotic effects of the drug on some individuals) might have been a contributing factor,[3] experts expressed doubt about this hypothesis, since toxicology reports were only able to identify cannabis/marijuana in Eugene's system, leaving the ultimate cause of his behavior unknown.[4]

 

[LindsayLohan6]

Dr. Baden's full report has not been released to my knowledge which I find strange. Also, the question of the hyoid bone is addressed in the talk presented by Robert Anderson. Dr. Tumosa of the Baltimore ME office as well agrees that the hyoid bone can be damaged by animals such as the massive rats that roam OB.

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None of this is relevant. Her fear originated INSIDE Jb's home. Next and most importantly which everyone is ignoring, they searched the marsh and she wasn't there. She wasn't found until the night after the 48 hours premieres likely from the killer contacting le and letting them now she was there now

 

[SearchingMike]

Such an exaggeration...you know how many people are "diagnosed" as bipolar that don't run freak out that someone's trying to kill them and run into a marsh and drown themselves. Her behavior makes sense for someone experience extreme fear. She saw something and she didn't know who she could trust, Pak, Colette anyone. Haven't you ever seen a horror movie where the person realizes everyone in a town is actually evil and trying to kill them? They freak out an run because they don't know who they can trust

Fear would cause her to run away. To safety. Not further into the unknown. Why wouldn't she trust Pak. Worked with her for a while. Very close. Mutiple calls in the previous hours. Psychosis due to drugs exacerbated by bi polar disorder untreated is not a wild theory outside the realm of likelihood.

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[SearchingMike]

None of this is relevant. Her fear originated INSIDE Jb's home. Next and most importantly which everyone is ignoring, they searched the marsh and she wasn't there. She wasn't found until the night after the 48 hours premieres likely from the killer contacting le and letting them now she was there now

That's quite a stretch based on the info we have. What I posted is absolutely relevant. They could not search the marsh as you proposed at the time in depth. They didn't actively search for her immediately anyways.

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[Robert Anderson]

Could have been some compound that they weren't able to identify with tests. wiki:While police sources speculated that the use of a legal recreational synthetic stimulant party drug such as "bath salts" (which have a notorious reputation for the psychotic effects of the drug on some individuals) might have been a contributing factor,[3] experts expressed doubt about this hypothesis, since toxicology reports were only able to identify cannabis/marijuana in Eugene's system, leaving the ultimate cause of his behavior unknown.[4]

I spoke to two pathologists in preparation for Baltimore. Both said it was unrealistic to hope to find anything in a tox screen after a skeleton was left in that environment for a year and a half. Dr. Tumosa, who is heard at the end of the talk, concurs. The marrow would be gone, etc.

At the end of the day it is SG's actions after Brewer went out to Pak's car that matter more than what specific substance she may or may not have ingested.

 

[deedee21]

I dont think a rat would discriminate and bite off the tips of SG hyoid bone. Also a hole was found in SG hyoid bone. Animal scatter has been rejectecd.

 

[SearchingMike]

I dont think a rat would discriminate and bite off the tips of SG hyoid bone. Also a hole was found in SG hyoid bone. Animal scatter has been rejectecd.

Dr. Tumosa postulates that the hole was most likely a worm hole

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