The Springfield Three--missing since June 1992 - #4

[former central time]

Brilliant Kemo. So on board with you on this. I’ll get to that in my last point.

I too like these ideas you are bringing to the board and a couple of observations, to jump in to with here.

The porch lady issue. It has been very persistent point in this case, but even among investigators skepticism can be found. I question this part of the case as well, but for different reasons. As I have posted on another board, looking over historical meteorological records, a dense fog covered the Ozarks that morning, which only got more dense to as late as 8 AM.
quote]

I would like to see this information. I have used the old farmers almanac for that day and doesnt say there was a fog. The low tempature was 57 degrees on June 6 and 52 on June 7th. If there was a fog that morning then many of the witness accounts of colors could be skewed and darkness would have been later into the morning. That also would support the idea that porch lady lived on Grand east of the house and the turn that was missed and caused the turnaround. This at least points the direction that was taken out of town, and makes sense as to the missed turn.


quote]

Someone else casually brought up weather conditions for the time around this event. Here's a listing of the historical currents that morning, as reported by the SGF observational location (National Weather Service), the closest of anything official to this location.


http://www.wunderground.com/history...eq_city=NA&req_state=NA&req_statename=NA&MR=1

Three elements jump off the page to me: time, contrasted with temperature vs dew point, and calm winds. As a TV meteorologist myself, for twenty years, one of the basic elements we watch out for in fog production is the 'closeness' of dew point and temperature. Generally a separation of three degrees will drive fog production. When temperatures and dew points are right on top of each other, coupled with calm winds, you have pea soup. Winds act as a measure to provide mixing, with drier air to counter fog settlement (the sun, will generally drive those winds by heating the ground and 'mixing out' the fog). Also, the clear skies from earlier that night tell me (after a previous scattered shower event on Saturday to place surface moisture), that this was 'radiation fog.' Clear skies allowed the earth to radiate heat to space, later cooling the air right above it. When the temperature fell to the dew point, it hit a brick wall, and tiny drops began condensing out...fog.

As it pertains to the 'porch lady' story, the account, as I have generally read, states she saw this event around 6 AM. Given these conditions, in my view, she was either lying, mistaken, erroneous on the time or greatly embellished her story to fill in juicy details. Even hours after a sunrise, details can easily been covered in fog, think of the road accidents well after sunrise and with front and back headlights as guides, yet two large metal objects hit without malicious intent. Given these conditions, at 6 or even 7 that morning, sure she might have seen some vehicle pull up, some person driving it, and the monologue lines (which vary on accounts). But shirt colors, van type and color, a woman with blond hair (didn't say man or person), but woman driving, appearing anguished, anybody see the mole on her mouth ? At this place and time of events ? No, I don't buy it.

A couple of months ago, 60 Minutes aired a story of a woman from North Carolina who falsely identified the man who raped her in the 80's. She painfully noted as much detail during the horror as she could and sent the wrong guy to prison for years. DNA tests later revealed the guilty party and cleared the innocent man. If I remember correctly, FRONTLINE also did this story back in the late 90's.

 

[Hurricane]

Someone else casually brought up weather conditions for the time around this event. Here's a listing of the historical currents that morning, as reported by the SGF observational location (National Weather Service), the closest of anything official to this location.


http://www.wunderground.com/history...eq_city=NA&req_state=NA&req_statename=NA&MR=1

Three elements jump off the page to me: time, contrasted with temperature vs dew point, and calm winds. As a TV meteorologist myself, for twenty years, one of the basic elements we watch out for in fog production is the 'closeness' of dew point and temperature. Generally a separation of three degrees will drive fog production. When temperatures and dew points are right on top of each other, coupled with calm winds, you have pea soup. Winds act as a measure to provide mixing, with drier air to counter fog settlement (the sun, will generally drive those winds by heating the ground and 'mixing out' the fog). Also, the clear skies from earlier that night tell me (after a previous scattered shower event on Saturday to place surface moisture), that this was 'radiation fog.' Clear skies allowed the earth to radiate heat to space, later cooling the air right above it. When the temperature fell to the dew point, it hit a brick wall, and tiny drops began condensing out...fog.

As it pertains to the 'porch lady' story, the account, as I have generally read, states she saw this event around 6 AM. Given these conditions, in my view, she was either lying, mistaken, erroneous on the time or greatly embellished her story to fill in juicy details. Even hours after a sunrise, details can easily been covered in fog, think of the road accidents well after sunrise and with front and back headlights as guides, yet two large metal objects hit without malicious intent. Given these conditions, at 6 or even 7 that morning, sure she might have seen some vehicle pull up, some person driving it, and the monologue lines (which vary on accounts). But shirt colors, van type and color, a woman with blond hair (didn't say man or person), but woman driving, appearing anguished, anybody see the mole on her mouth ? At this place and time of events ? No, I don't buy it.

A couple of months ago, 60 Minutes aired a story of a woman from North Carolina who falsely identified the man who raped her in the 80's. She painfully noted as much detail during the horror as she could and sent the wrong guy to prison for years. DNA tests later revealed the guilty party and cleared the innocent man. If I remember correctly, FRONTLINE also did this story back in the late 90's.

Interesting. I can see under the Hourly Observations that from 5:00 am thru 7:00 am it lists the conditions as Fog and humidity at 100%. Just as a general question on weather; when barometric pressure is rising and is above 30 in. doesn’t that normally indicate blue bird skies with dry and milder conditions to follow, or is that said to be the case just in the winter time?

With the overnight low being 53.1 degrees it would tend to substantiate that AC was not needed and that at least some of the bedroom windows at both the Kirby and Levitt residences could have remained open all night.

As far as the porch lady sighting goes the facts are that she only said the driver resembled Suzie. She never claimed to have been able to see either a birthmark or tumor which has been speculated by others.

 

[Hurricane]

Former -- Is it possible that the fog ceiling was high enough at any time between 5:00 am and 7:00 am so as not to be noticeable or a factor? The published accounts of the porch ladies sighting mentions the sunshine at about 6:00 am and it seems like that would have been a buzz kill for LE instantly if it was known to have been a foggy morning.

 

[kemo]

I have never been to Springfield but from Google Earth, it looks like East Grand is a major thoroughfare that anyone who wasn't familiar with the town would expect to either lead to the Interstate (I-65) or go through to the rural area to the east of town. My understanding is that Porch Lady lived right about it would become obvious to anyone drive east, that the street ended at the Interstate (so that it would be necessary to turn around.) This definitely gives PL some credibility as it is not so unlikely that someone would pull into a driveway on her block. I'll bet, however that this wasn't the first time it happened.

Fog would be an issue if it was the low-lying type. Does this occur in Springfield in the summer? Fog would also delay the onset of daylight, perhaps by a half hour or so. I wonder if she made reference to the fog and light conditions. These things could help gauge her credibility.

There is always the problem of people presenting themselves as "witnesses" who are making it all up. I would expect a go interviewer to be able to spot it but a greater problem would be genuine witnesses who feel they must add details they don't really remember to make their account believable. Sometimes they are pressured by the interviewer to "remember" things they really don't. This process can really alter memories. A detective interviewing a witness has to apply his skills as an interrogator, his knowledge of people and his intuition to gauge the credibility of a witness. Evidentially that decision was made that PL was credible and the investigation turned into a search for the van.

We don't know exactly how the search for the van was conducted but we must assume appropriate methodology was used. I would think that with the publicity this case generated, pretty much everyone in the metro area was aware that the suspect drove a ratty old green van. I just can't believe someone could have driven one without LE becoming aware of it. This leaves open the possibility that the driver came from out of the area OR the description was faulty.

 

[Missouri Mule]

Some minor details: I have driven the area many, many times and yes, it would seem logical to think that Grand would have gone all the way out of town but it doesn't. When the error was noticed it would have been entirely consistent to believe that the van would have had to turn around and double back to South Oak Grove to go north to East Cherry which does, in a roundabout way go all the way out to the Rogersville area where I believe it is correct to say most concede is the way they would have most likely have gone.

Had they gone to the west, they would have been in town for a long time putting discovery of their exit more likely. Ditto going north on Glenstone as it is about 4 miles or so before I44 is reached with numerous stop lights. Going south is more plausible and not as far. I would not discount that possibility. Going to East Battlefield and out of town would have an alternate route and picked up US 60 going east somewhat quicker.

The major road that Grand dead ended (T'd) into was actually U.S. 65 which is actually a by-pass of the city. Business 65 is the same as Glenstone which is just to the east of the Delmar address. That's a minor point for clarification.

I was not aware of this fog issue but it certainly seems to be something to consider in the totality of the "porch lady's" account that morning. If it were extremely heavy she wouldn't have seen as clearly but she also might have been more aware of the sounds she heard coming from the van. That would have stood out more since her hearing would have been concentrated on the turning around of the van.

 

[former central time]

To Mule...yes you are correct, a rising barometer tends to indicate fair skies, 'improving weather,' as with a high pressure cell. And, in this case, we did have clear skies, at least from this report the previous night. But, that's just a guide and doesn't necessarily mean that's what you'll get. Fact is, high pressure cells can allow mid to upper level clouds (overcast to an observer, and somewhat appears to have happened on this afternoon), and you can have thunderstorms develop near high pressure. Falling air (rising barometer) tends to fight against that, but not always. In this case, it may have HELPED surface fog develop, which is where the problem started and very well may have stayed.

Getting to another point raised here about fog aloft, that's not where the problem was created and remained. The surface was the problem. I haven't seen a vertical profiles of the atmosphere on this day (which measures temperature and dew point from the surface up), but, based on the surface observation where people lived, the air was clearly saturated. Further, with falling air, (rising barometer), the surface moisture would have been trapped and I suspect an 'inversion' developed, which is a cap to repel further mixing with air aloft. In other words, it made matters worse.

So, briefly, we have some scattered showers/drizzle, moisture deposited at the surface on Saturday. Skies open up overnight, based on the hourly comments. Perfect, that allowed the surface to cool, and NOT mix with, what I suspect drier air aloft, surface fog develops. Sun comes in to clear skies, but the surface is muddied in fog. As the sun heats the earth, that starts surface winds and into mixing with drier air, fog 'mixes out.' I have no troubling believing by 8 AM, 'sunny skies.' The hourlies, by the way, are averages from the previous hour's activity and it is clear that during the 7 o'clock hour conditions markedly improved. But, 6 AM, the details of a 'woman who looks like Suzie' in 1970's model van, too much for me to accept.

These observational reports tell me a couple things. For one, the perp(s) probably had good cover at the house, although that doesn't mask sounds, it would have helped keep things more mysterious from any curious eyes watching, any cars that passed by and so on. Two, if 'porch lady's account was in fact at 6 AM, I don't accept any of her details beyond; a motor vehicle, an apparent male's voice, and this vehicle pulling in a driveway and pulling back out with some human presumably driving it. Buuuut, if it occurred later, these details become that much more credible. Fog can give the impression it is earlier in the morning, than it is. And, after forecasting weather in the Ozarks for a few years, with volatile thunderstorms and tornadoes, fog was never much of a talking point.

Lastly, to the point about AC, absolutely, only a fool would be running their AC overnight in this case. Not only that, true to form of a late Spring/early Summer in the Ozarks with all this moisture; It's 'stuffy' in the late afternoon/early evening, yet bone chilling, damp cold in the morning.

 

[Hurricane]

To Mule...yes you are correct, a rising barometer tends to indicate fair skies, 'improving weather,' as with a high pressure cell. And, in this case, we did have clear skies, at least from this report the previous night. But, that's just a guide and doesn't necessarily mean that's what you'll get. Fact is, high pressure cells can allow mid to upper level clouds (overcast to an observer, and somewhat appears to have happened on this afternoon), and you can have thunderstorms develop near high pressure. Falling air (rising barometer) tends to fight against that, but not always. In this case, it may have HELPED surface fog develop, which is where the problem started and very well may have stayed.

Getting to another point raised here about fog aloft, that's not where the problem was created and remained. The surface was the problem. I haven't seen a vertical profiles of the atmosphere on this day (which measures temperature and dew point from the surface up), but, based on the surface observation where people lived, the air was clearly saturated. Further, with falling air, (rising barometer), the surface moisture would have been trapped and I suspect an 'inversion' developed, which is a cap to repel further mixing with air aloft. In other words, it made matters worse.

So, briefly, we have some scattered showers/drizzle, moisture deposited at the surface on Saturday. Skies open up overnight, based on the hourly comments. Perfect, that allowed the surface to cool, and NOT mix with, what I suspect drier air aloft, surface fog develops. Sun comes in to clear skies, but the surface is muddied in fog. As the sun heats the earth, that starts surface winds and into mixing with drier air, fog 'mixes out.' I have no troubling believing by 8 AM, 'sunny skies.'

The hourlies, by the way, are averages from the previous hour's activity and it is clear that during the 7 o'clock hour conditions markedly improved.

But, 6 AM, the details of a 'woman who looks like Suzie' in 1970's model van, too much for me to accept.

These observational reports tell me a couple things. For one, the perp(s) probably had good cover at the house, although that doesn't mask sounds, it would have helped keep things more mysterious from any curious eyes watching, any cars that passed by and so on. Two, if 'porch lady's account was in fact at 6 AM, I don't accept any of her details beyond; a motor vehicle, an apparent male's voice, and this vehicle pulling in a driveway and pulling back out with some human presumably driving it. Buuuut, if it occurred later, these details become that much more credible. Fog can give the impression it is earlier in the morning, than it is. And, after forecasting weather in the Ozarks for a few years, with volatile thunderstorms and tornadoes, fog was never much of a talking point.

Lastly, to the point about AC, absolutely, only a fool would be running their AC overnight in this case. Not only that, true to form of a late Spring/early Summer in the Ozarks with all this moisture; It's 'stuffy' in the late afternoon/early evening, yet bone chilling, damp cold in the morning.

If the sighting by the porch lady is not accurate it doesn’t mean the SPD investigation went off the rails early on by looking for a van. We have multiple witnesses who reported seeing a van. The N-L paper carrier was one of those witnesses. She had a couple of sightings between 4:00 am and 4:30 am that morning, which would have preceded the fog developing. I have always considered her sighting of a van parked on S. Kentwood to be important because she drove that route every morning and would have seen that van before even if it was an irregular occurrence for it to be there, but she saw it only that one morning.

If the porch lady’s time is off by as little as 15 – 20 minutes after 6:00 am and the hourlies are averages then just perhaps the fog was not a factor. I see the porch lady’s sighting as being less important. She did believe that the driver of the van was Suzie, but never claimed to have seen Suzie’s small tumor on her chin or said anything about seeing a birthmark on either her arm or her face as has been alleged. I don’t know of a published source stating that Suzie even had a visible birthmark.

 

[Missouri Mule]

If the sighting by the porch lady is not accurate it doesn’t mean the SPD investigation went off the rails early on by looking for a van. We have multiple witnesses who reported seeing a van. The N-L paper carrier was one of those witnesses. She had a couple of sightings between 4:00 am and 4:30 am that morning, which would have preceded the fog developing. I have always considered her sighting of a van parked on S. Kentwood to be important because she drove that route every morning and would have seen that van before even if it was an irregular occurrence for it to be there, but she saw it only that one morning.

If the porch lady’s time is off by as little as 15 – 20 minutes after 6:00 am and the hourlies are averages then just perhaps the fog was not a factor. I see the porch lady’s sighting as being less important. She did believe that the driver of the van was Suzie, but never claimed to have seen Suzie’s small tumor on her chin or said anything about seeing a birthmark on either her arm or her face as has been alleged. I don’t know of a published source stating that Suzie even had a visible birthmark.

For some reason that has never stood out for me but it should have. How far from the house was the van parked? As I recall, Kentwood is a somewhat narrow street which would seem to be an odd place to park a van at any time. It has been a long time since I have driven that area but that's my recollection. Aren't there some other places where it would have been more logical to have parked a van except on a narrow street such as Kentwood?

In any event, if the newspaper carrier saw the van and it was essentially identical to the one the "porch lady" saw it would seem we would effectively have a positive ID on the abduction vehicle, does it not?

As I recall, Kentwood is a lightly traveled street anytime for that matter. If the newspaper carrier saw the van in the quiet of the early morning it would seemingly be something that would have stood out. It makes me wonder when the police put these two reported sightings together and collectively said to themselves, "this was the abduction vehicle."

I do recall that there was some discussion regarding the paint color but as anyone knows the night lights on parking lots and such will cause the perception of color to appear to the naked eye to be different than the actual color. I seem to recall the reports said it was brown and reports evidently came before the porch lady came forward some days later and provided the information that she had seen in the daylight (with natural light). The color that she saw would almost certainly have been the actual color of the van.

Thinking about the location of the van it makes me think that the driver got out of the vehicle and walked to the house where somehow he or they (if more than one) gained entry. It would therefore have been necessary to have subdued and rendered defenseless all three women to go back to get the van leaving the women alone in the house for a few brief moments. On the other hand, if he had an accomplice who could drive the van, he could have communicated back to the driver to pull the van into the driveway using those two way radios which should have been available even before the advent of the modern cell phone. Regardless it would appear that the abductor(s) did not want to tip off the women that he was coming after them having parked the van well out of sight and notice.

With the well documented fact that the crime scene was so badly contaminated one is left in a dilemma in determining if this was a planned or spontaneous act such as a burglary crew that was working the neighborhood. Of course we still have the problem of the money left behind and the conclusion of the various agencies that this was a sexual assault.

I suppose I keep coming back to the question that seemingly has no answer. Why was this particular house targeted if in fact it was a sexual assault?

 

[kemo]

From what I recall, a newspaper carrier reported a van parked on Kentwood. The description was different but closes enough. The place on Kentwood was a stretch of road one would not expect to see a parked car; it was not near any entrance or driveway and there would not have been any parking issues in that neighborhood. It seems more than reasonable to seek out the van. I'm thinking along the lines of the inability to find the van is, itself, a clue. Which conclusion is more likely? 1)the perp did not drive a "ratty old van" after all OR 2)The perp, or maybe just the van, did not originate in the Springfield area.

If we consider #2, there is that question of did one of the women know the perp? Based on what we know, I think it is unlikely that some predator, perhaps from out of town, just stumbled upon them that night and decided to make their move. If it was a "stranger", it would be possible that it was essentially a stalker who had been interested in them for a while. It seems like that would not have been a good night to strike and evidence still suggests that the perp actually knew one or more of the women.

On this site, the "stranger vs. acquaintance" issue has been hashed out before. Three issues that are "known" to the investigation would shed a little more light on the issue. Does anyone know: 1) was Stacy's finger or thumb print really on the inside door knob? 2) Was Stacy's bare footprint found on the living room floor or on the porch? 3) Was the back door either open or unlocked?

I am now thinking along the lines that the perp was someone that one of the women knew well enough to admit to the house in the early AM yet did not the live in the Springfield area. Such a "suspect" might not come to the attention of LE at all.

 

[Indianagirl]

If the sighting by the porch lady is not accurate it doesn’t mean the SPD investigation went off the rails early on by looking for a van. We have multiple witnesses who reported seeing a van. The N-L paper carrier was one of those witnesses. She had a couple of sightings between 4:00 am and 4:30 am that morning, which would have preceded the fog developing. I have always considered her sighting of a van parked on S. Kentwood to be important because she drove that route every morning and would have seen that van before even if it was an irregular occurrence for it to be there, but she saw it only that one morning.

If the porch lady’s time is off by as little as 15 – 20 minutes after 6:00 am and the hourlies are averages then just perhaps the fog was not a factor. I see the porch lady’s sighting as being less important. She did believe that the driver of the van was Suzie, but never claimed to have seen Suzie’s small tumor on her chin or said anything about seeing a birthmark on either her arm or her face as has been alleged. I don’t know of a published source stating that Suzie even had a visible birthmark.

The Daily Oklahoman
August 28, 1992
Section: COMMUNITY III
Page: 1

Topics:
Index Terms:
MISSING PERSONS

TV Show to Air Story On 3 Missing Women
Author: Robert Medley

****Snip from above article****

"Clymer's sister Janice McCall is the mother of Stacy McCall.
Clymer said a "48 Hours" crew has updated the story to include a segment about a witness who has surfaced.

She said a woman who was on her front porch in Springfield the morning the women disappeared has reported seeing a blond woman identified as Streeter driving a van.

The woman told authorities Streeter drove a van into a next-door driveway and stopped as if lost about 6:30 a.m. that day.

Streeter appeared to be crying and a birthmark on her face could be seen as the van stopped. The woman on her porch reported hearing a male voice say, "Now back up and don't do anything stupid," Clymer said.

Clymer said the incident has been considered a confirmed sighting by law enforcement officials. The silvery green and older model Dodge van sighted was 15 blocks from the home where the women disappeared in Springfield, Clymer said."

Just wanted to post this article for reference. It does mention the time of 6:30 A.M. It seems Stacy's Aunt and LE believed in this tip at the time. I'm guessing porch lady was referring to Suzie's tumor as a birthmark?

The more I read about this sighting the less convinced I become, but I don't know if some of these news reporters made errors in their statements.

So far, there have been articles that mention porch lady:
1) hears a male voice but it seems what he said changes a little in each article.
2) couldn't see the male voice, but he was wearing a yellow shirt?
3) could make out a "birthmark" on Suzie's face and tell she looked as if she had been crying.

If all of these are accurate reports, I find it hard to believe porch lady was able to see and hear all of this. But, like I said above, I guess some of it could have been erroneous reporting?

ETA: Also, maybe Stacy's Aunt was confused or mixed up on some of the details she gave in her above interview?

 

[Missouri Mule]

The van was spotted 15 blocks from the house? If that is true then I question whether it would have been involved. That must surely be a misprint as the total number of blocks for Kentwood, including short blocks only total about 15 blocks. Delmar was located about 1/2 of the distance to the north and south of Kentwood according to Mapquest. Surely it must have been 1.5 blocks; not 15 blocks. I'm inclined to think this was a misprint.

6:30 AM also seems late as sunrise was a full half hour before. However, it that were true, it certainly extends the envelope of available time to carry out the abductions.

There is no reason, however, to doubt the newspaper carrier's account. At that time she would have noticed such things being that this was a routine route she did every day. It would be interesting to see what her police report actually said.

 

[Indianagirl]

The van was spotted 15 blocks from the house? If that is true then I question whether it would have been involved. That must surely be a misprint as the total number of blocks for Kentwood, including short blocks only total about 15 blocks. Delmar was located about 1/2 of the distance to the north and south of Kentwood according to Mapquest. Surely it must have been 1.5 blocks; not 15 blocks. I'm inclined to think this was a misprint.

6:30 AM also seems late as sunrise was a full half hour before. However, it that were true, it certainly extends the envelope of available time to carry out the abductions.

There is no reason, however, to doubt the newspaper carrier's account. At that time she would have noticed such things being that this was a routine route she did every day. It would be interesting to see what her police report actually said.

I'm a little confused by your post. The newspaper carrier saw a van on kentwood. We don't know where exactly porch lady lived. The above article I posted had nothing to do with the newspaper carrier. Porch lady lived 15 blocks from delmar. The article was not saying kentwood was 15 blocks away. Hope this clears up any confusion.

 

[Missouri Mule]

I'm a little confused by your post. The newspaper carrier saw a van on kentwood. We don't know where exactly porch lady lived. The above article I posted had nothing to do with the newspaper carrier. Porch lady lived 15 blocks from delmar. The article was not saying kentwood was 15 blocks away. Hope this clears up any confusion.

I'm really sorry. I was obviously confused myself. For some reason, my brain kicked out of gear and I inexplicably interpreted the article to say that the van was seen on Kentwood about 15 blocks away when instead upon rereading it it obviously referred to the Grand Street address. (smacking self upside head). In looking at Mapquest, and adding 15 blocks to the Delmar address (1700 -3200 Grand) it places the address almost exactly at the end of Grand before it T's into South Craig. That is where it would be obvious that the street didn't go through necessitating the turn-around. This can easily be seen on Mapquest which better illustrates the 15 blocks. (The blocks are irregular so it is best to just use Mapquest to place the approximate location of "porch lady.")

It was entirely my fault. I apologize for the unnecessary confusion.

 

[Trooogrit]

Kentwood is the street just west of the house and Grand was one block or so north of the house. My opinion is that the porchlady lived just passed the curve at south Belcrest, this is approximately 13 blocks east of delmar and give or take the 2 blocks on Kentwood. Belcrest would have taken them south to Catalpa which on todays maps is a through street and is also an access to hwy 65. If Suzie missed the turn then the perp realized it was a dead end, and told her to turn around. I do think they drove all the way to the dead end. Which is 5 pr 6 blocks further. I think the porch lady would have remembered colors better than the paper carrier because it was more of an event in her conscience. The paper carrier was not focused on the van. Either way we have van sighting of the same make in the area by more than one witness.

 

[Indianagirl]

I'm really sorry. I was obviously confused myself. For some reason, my brain kicked out of gear and I inexplicably interpreted the article to say that the van was seen on Kentwood about 15 blocks away when instead upon rereading it it obviously referred to the Grand Street address. (smacking self upside head). In looking at Mapquest, and adding 15 blocks to the Delmar address (1700 -3200 Grand) it places the address almost exactly at the end of Grand before it T's into South Craig. That is where it would be obvious that the street didn't go through necessitating the turn-around. This can easily be seen on Mapquest which better illustrates the 15 blocks. (The blocks are irregular so it is best to just use Mapquest to place the approximate location of "porch lady.")

It was entirely my fault. I apologize for the unnecessary confusion.

No apologizes necessary! Glad any confusion has been cleared up!!

 

[Hurricane]

The Daily Oklahoman
August 28, 1992
Section: COMMUNITY III
Page: 1

Topics:
Index Terms:
MISSING PERSONS

TV Show to Air Story On 3 Missing Women
Author: Robert Medley

****Snip from above article****

"Clymer's sister Janice McCall is the mother of Stacy McCall.
Clymer said a "48 Hours" crew has updated the story to include a segment about a witness who has surfaced.

She said a woman who was on her front porch in Springfield the morning the women disappeared has reported seeing a blond woman identified as Streeter driving a van.

The woman told authorities Streeter drove a van into a next-door driveway and stopped as if lost about 6:30 a.m. that day.

Streeter appeared to be crying and a birthmark on her face could be seen as the van stopped. The woman on her porch reported hearing a male voice say, "Now back up and don't do anything stupid," Clymer said.

Clymer said the incident has been considered a confirmed sighting by law enforcement officials. The silvery green and older model Dodge van sighted was 15 blocks from the home where the women disappeared in Springfield, Clymer said."

Just wanted to post this article for reference. It does mention the time of 6:30 A.M. It seems Stacy's Aunt and LE believed in this tip at the time. I'm guessing porch lady was referring to Suzie's tumor as a birthmark?

The more I read about this sighting the less convinced I become, but I don't know if some of these news reporters made errors in their statements.

So far, there have been articles that mention porch lady:
1) hears a male voice but it seems what he said changes a little in each article.
2) couldn't see the male voice, but he was wearing a yellow shirt?
3) could make out a "birthmark" on Suzie's face and tell she looked as if she had been crying.

If all of these are accurate reports, I find it hard to believe porch lady was able to see and hear all of this. But, like I said above, I guess some of it could have been erroneous reporting?

ETA: Also, maybe Stacy's Aunt was confused or mixed up on some of the details she gave in her above interview?

We have conflicting information concerning the time of the porch lady sighting. Obviously the later the time might have been the fog would become less of a factor. If the sighting was as late as 6:30 am as reported here then it might not have been a factor in her sighting at all.

All of this information came from the same source which was the N-L thru the AP Service and stringers, I would think. Kathee can shed more light on how this works. The KC Star, St. Louis Post Dispatch, The Daily Oklahoman, etc didn’t send their own reporters to Springfield to cover the daily press conferences concerning this case. They took their info from the AP Service. The 2002 ten year review by the N-L was the same type of thing; a recap of their previous coverage thru the years. How information becomes distorted is beyond me, but it does.

 

[pittsburghgirl]

Brilliant Kemo. So on board with you on this. I’ll get to that in my last point.

I too like these ideas you are bringing to the board and a couple of observations, to jump in to with here.

The porch lady issue. It has been very persistent point in this case, but even among investigators skepticism can be found. I question this part of the case as well, but for different reasons. As I have posted on another board, looking over historical meteorological records, a dense fog covered the Ozarks that morning, which only got more dense to as late as 8 AM.
quote]

I would like to see this information. I have used the old farmers almanac for that day and doesnt say there was a fog. The low tempature was 57 degrees on June 6 and 52 on June 7th. If there was a fog that morning then many of the witness accounts of colors could be skewed and darkness would have been later into the morning. That also would support the idea that porch lady lived on Grand east of the house and the turn that was missed and caused the turnaround. This at least points the direction that was taken out of town, and makes sense as to the missed turn.

quote]

Somewhere on one of the last threads I posted a lot of meteorological info that is available using (I think) NOAA's site because I was thinking about what the girls might have been wearing if that (for example) went to sit outside while Suzie smoked or if someone had come to the house to hang out. I will attempt to find and resurrect it. Remember though that fog is not a predictable phenomena--it might be generally foggy but not foggy in one spot. Local testimony would be better for conditions in the area of the Streeter house.

 

[pittsburghgirl]

We have conflicting information concerning the time of the porch lady sighting. Obviously the later the time might have been the fog would become less of a factor. If the sighting was as late as 6:30 am as reported here then it might not have been a factor in her sighting at all.

All of this information came from the same source which was the N-L thru the AP Service and stringers, I would think. Kathee can shed more light on how this works. The KC Star, St. Louis Post Dispatch, The Daily Oklahoman, etc didn’t send their own reporters to Springfield to cover the daily press conferences concerning this case. They took their info from the AP Service. The 2002 ten year review by the N-L was the same type of thing; a recap of their previous coverage thru the years. How information becomes distorted is beyond me, but it does.

One way it happens is that the reporter will unwittingly write something that can be interpreted in several ways and the next one will pick up and amplify his or her INTERPRETATION and the ball rolls on from there. A good example is the coverage of the Columbine massacre, which the public to this day believes was the work of a group of students called the Trench Coat Mafia. Not so. CNN reports had a student making the leap from "the shooter had a trench coat on" to "It must have been the Trench Coat Mafia." In reality, the coats were to cover the guns; the group had nothing to do with it. But the idea stuck and can still be found, endlessly repeated in the media, that a group of outcasts (they weren't) called the TCM (they weren't) SNAPPED (they didn't) and shot up the school--when in reality the real action was supposed to be the bombs, most of which failed. Dave Cullen outlines all this in his great book Columbine but his website covers most of this, also. Inaccuracies become myths become history.

 

[pittsburghgirl]

When I first heard of this case, I thought of the Yosemite Murders. Cary Stayner was able to abduct three women by himself from their hotel room with no noise, disruption of the crime scene or forensic evidence. He did not know the women but he was an employee of the hotel.

Yes, the Stayner case comes to mind, as does a murder of a woman and her two children in Florida, who went out on a boat with a man and were murdered. One aspect that applies to both this case and the Stayner case is that in each case, the adult woman in the situation had not only her own child present but a visitor for whom she was responsible. It's not really surprising that a woman could easily be controlled by a threat to kids. And some people are passive by nature. There's a famous short story by Joyce Carol Oates in which a serial killer talks a teenage girl right out of the house by threatening to kill the family. Imagine robbery scenes in which the robber controls a whole store full of people by pointing a gun at them. People are not only afraid for themselves, but to act in ways that might lead others to be killed.

 

[pittsburghgirl]

Here is the link for the weather on Springfield, MO, June 8, 1992.

http://http://www.wunderground.com/history/airport/KSGF/1992/6/8/DailyHistory.html?req_city=Springfield&req_state=MO&req_statename=Missouri

This is airport data and shows fog starting at 5 am. There's no way to know exactly what conditions were at the Streeter house. Perhaps some LE or reporters may recall.