The Springfield Three--missing since June 1992 - #5

[monkeymann]

I did not give any details of the tip. And never have to anyone.

I was never trying to "bully" you. Sorry you took it that way. There's ways to say things publicly without saying anything. That's what I did. I wouldn't get bent out of shape about it. You know I appreciate your work but sometimes I get frustrated because I feel like, after all these years, you sticking with the garage thing the one time we get a chance to get this story publicly on the air, I wonder if that's obstructing justice because it paints LE as a bad guy when I feel like they are all doing their best or they already know the perp without much proof.

Regardless, I apologize for getting agitated and taking it out on you.

I Agree....I never put out details publicly in such a manor that I thought It was ever compromising the promise I made to you Kathee, not to do so.
And, as with Drake, I also apologise "Again" for the times I get frustrated with you over the sharing of information. Its not meant to be a "Personal Thing"....at all!! I do appreciate the time and effort you've put into this case....FOR SURE....but Kathee, most of us are here to "HELP"...not hinder or compromise, especially ones like me who have been involved with the 3MW forums for years. We'd just like a little more "Direction and Involvement" from you. Also...If you can give some of us, "ME"...some "Guidelines" for how information that you give us "Privately" can be aired "Publicly" in a manor that you don't think it compromises my/our promise to you, I would really appreciate that. Things "CAN" be said, and asked, in a public forum in such a way that it doesn't compromise anything, most of the time, and certainly thought that I had been being very conscious of that since I promised you that I'd exercise discretion with the information on the public sites. If you feel that I've compromised that, please let me know how I've done that, and what I need to avoid even "Talking About". I never want to be part of the problem....Only the solution! Promise!!

 

[monkeymann]

Thank you SO much for all of your hard work!!! I was able to back and take a few notes and found three addresses for the parties. I think I posted those in #397 of this thread, then mb posted a map in #398. That map has lots of different addresses on it. I didn't see it in the sticky, but maybe it should go there?

CaliMama: Add to your google map locations the address's of the individuals that were involved in the Grave Robber Incident, as well as JK & MH, as well as some of the other people who were listed on the original police report. Its interesting to see "Just How Close To Each Other" some of these people lived to each other back then. I'm not saying that they have anything to do with anything.....Just something I noticed that I found interesting, when I was looking at google and putting addresses in. Its also interesting to see how close to some of these people the person that Hmmmwhoknows mentioned, lived as well.

 

[Hurricane]

I wish they would up the reward money. 42k in 2012 means nothing.

If you change that thing to 150k, I bet people start talking. You'll see ex-girlfriends come out of the woodwork.

I'm sure the reward money is not even that high anymore. There were donations collected from private individuals at banks, places of employment, etc and that money should be in an account somewhere drawing interest (if it were still possible to make any interest on your money). But most of the reward money was pledged from Smithy's and they are no longer in business. The way corporate pledged money works is that it is not collected until it is needed and paid out. Sometimes corporate pledged money even has a time limit placed on the length of the pledge. I suspect what reward money that would be available today is a very small portion of the original $42,000.

 

[pittsburghgirl]

The police website says $42 k. (sorry for short message--on cell.)

 

[_mb_]

CaliMama: Add to your google map locations the address's of the individuals that were involved in the Grave Robber Incident, as well as JK & MH, as well as some of the other people who were listed on the original police report. Its interesting to see "Just How Close To Each Other" some of these people lived to each other back then. I'm not saying that they have anything to do with anything.....Just something I noticed that I found interesting, when I was looking at google and putting addresses in. Its also interesting to see how close to some of these people the person that Hmmmwhoknows mentioned, lived as well.

Janelle's residence is on there. Later tonight I'll see what I can do about the others on the list. If anyone has addresses for any of the others in '92, let me know. Otherwise, as with some of the addresses already listed (Carnahan, Cox, dig sites, etc) I end up with a "best guess" from what I find on casenet or dig up through old articles. If I can find an approximate address for the couple who heard the screams that night in Greene County, I will add that as well.

Also, if anyone has a link to the police report they could send me, that would be wonderful. I thought I'd saved a copy on my laptop but cannot find it.

 

[pittsburghgirl]

I'm still looking on the web: there has to be a cached copy somewhere.

 

[Kathee]

PPG send me an email and I will send you a copy.

 

[CaliMama]

Yes, I've seen a surprising number of true crime stories (e.g., Dateline, 48 Hours, etc.) in which someone told a girlfriend that he's murdered his previous girlfriend--and that woman keeps the secret, which is mind boggling. Anyone who has taught middle school knows that not "snitching" is (sad to say, in cases more serious than who threw the spitballs) a significant American value.

Yes, people can keep secrets and I truly believe 2 or 3 people know exactly what happened that night (and they will never tell) and I don't think it was a serial killer, burglar, family member, close friend or a grave robber.

(Football coaches and priests keep secrets too...just thinking of more to add to the list because I don't think it has to be a professional hitman/mafia or professional criminal for secrets to be kept for this long. Regular people are capable of keeping this kind of secret, just like you mentioned above.)

 

[wfgodot]

Biker gangs keep secrets.

 

[CaliMama]

Since I am new to this discussion (but not new to the case), I missed everyone's thoughts about the George's Restaurant witness/sighting and the screams that were heard by someone in Greene County. Have these aspects of the case already been debunked? If not, what are the specifics surrounding these tips and what are your thoughts? If I could figure out how to make a thread just for these things, I would...I'm sorry.

 

[wfgodot]

Since I am new to this discussion (but not new to the case), I missed everyone's thoughts about the George's Restaurant witness/sighting and the screams that were heard by someone in Greene County. Have these aspects of the case already been debunked? If not, what are the specifics surrounding these tips and what are your thoughts? If I could figure out how to make a thread just for these things, I would...I'm sorry.

I think the general consensus on the George's Restaurant reported sighting is discounted by most here, or has been over the years. (I find it intriguing - many do - but it doesn't seem to fit somehow; I think the general conclusion on LE's part was that the waitress did see them there, but on another night. Hmm....)

 

[CaliMama]

I think the general consensus on the George's Restaurant reported sighting is discounted by most here, or has been over the years. (I find it intriguing - many do - but it doesn't seem to fit somehow; I think the general conclusion on LE's part was that the waitress did see them there, but on another night. Hmm....)

Am I correct in that the waitress said that Suzie appeared to be very drunk and Sherill was trying to keep her calm? Could LE have discounted this encounter because it didn't fit with the timeline that they thought was the correct timeline? How many times during that week would all three of them have the opportunity to walk into George's Restaurant?

 

[HmmWhoKnows]

Am I correct in that the waitress said that Suzie appeared to be very drunk and Sherill was trying to keep her calm? Could LE have discounted this encounter because it didn't fit with the timeline that they thought was the correct timeline? How many times during that week would all three of them have the opportunity to walk into George's Restaurant?

The whole lead sounds bogus. The cops don't buy it one bit.

Calimama, since you were around the same age as these women were, do you think 18-21 year olds could pull off this crime? Maybe not in a planned way, but perhaps one thing lead to another and things got out of hand? I'm very suspicious of MH, JK, and the people surrounding those people. I'm particularly interested in TGR and his possible connection to the women.

 

[CaliMama]

The whole lead sounds bogus. The cops don't buy it one bit.

Calimama, since you were around the same age as these women were, do you think 18-21 year olds could pull off this crime? Maybe not in a planned way, but perhaps one thing lead to another and things got out of hand? I'm very suspicious of MH, JK, and the people surrounding those people. I'm particularly interested in TGR and his possible connection to the women.

Yes, I had just turned 21 in February of that year. One of the reasons why I related what happened to me in 1989 was because everyone involved in that scenario was between the ages of 18 - 22, but they were a part of an organization that required initiations and rituals to be a member in good standing (a fraternity). They also expected total loyalty and secrecy from their members with the whole "brotherhood" mentality.

That said, I really don't think 18 -21 year olds could pull this off (not the 18 -21 year olds that I knew) unless they were involved in some kind of close knit group like a fraternity or gang (organizations that rely on "group think" and have leaders). I also think it would be difficult to get others to go along with this if the motive was jealousy or revenge, even if they were tricked into going along with it.

Now if the 18 - 21 year olds were guys and the motive was rape, I could see one thing leading to another and one of them freaking out that the three women would be witnesses and decide that they had to be killed. If they had been taken to another location, they would have had plenty of time to decide what to do and how to do it.

I know it is far fetched, but all it would take would be a couple of trial runs to figure out what works and what doesn't work. What happened to my friend and I could have been a trial run for something else that would occur later. It is more probable that this was totally unrelated to what happened to us, but I still wonder.

Let me get back to you on TGR. Am I guessing that his initials are used because we aren't supposed to say his name on here? Is there a thread for him that I can read?

 

[irisheyesofblue]

Yes, I had just turned 21 in February of that year. One of the reasons why I related what happened to me in 1989 was because everyone involved in that scenario was between the ages of 18 - 22, but they were a part of an organization that required initiations and rituals to be a member in good standing (a fraternity). They also expected total loyalty and secrecy from their members with the whole "brotherhood" mentality.

That said, I really don't think 18 -21 year olds could pull this off (not the 18 -21 year olds that I knew) unless they were involved in some kind of close knit group like a fraternity or gang (organizations that rely on "group think" and have leaders). I also think it would be difficult to get others to go along with this if the motive was jealousy or revenge, even if they were tricked into going along with it.

Now if the 18 - 21 year olds were guys and the motive was rape, I could see one thing leading to another and one of them freaking out that the three women would be witnesses and decide that they had to be killed. If they had been taken to another location, they would have had plenty of time to decide what to do and how to do it.

I know it is far fetched, but all it would take would be a couple of trial runs to figure out what works and what doesn't work. What happened to my friend and I could have been a trial run for something else that would occur later. It is more probable that this was totally unrelated to what happened to us, but I still wonder.

Let me get back to you on TGR. Am I guessing that his initials are used because we aren't supposed to say his name on here? Is there a thread for him that I can read?

I just don't see that scenario working for this. The thing that makes me really think it couldn't be the reason is because of it looking like the girls made it home and that they were getting ready for bed.

I'm about the same age as you and had a similar thing happen, but mine happened in Philly. I lived in the Philly burbs at the time and really think at that age a lot not all, but a lot of college guys just assume that is ok. I was locked in the car and literally fought and almost busted out his window, finally got the door open and started walking. He then tried to get me back in the car, said he was sorry and would drive me back to my car. I walked it back and luckily was only about 5 miles away from my car so it wasn't too horrible. Thank goodness for me I got away unharmed as well. I've talked to others and a lot of girls had similar things happen. I actually would bump into this guy occasionally too and seriously think he never thought he did anything wrong.

 

[CaliMama]

I just don't see that scenario working for this. The thing that makes me really think it couldn't be the reason is because of it looking like the girls made it home and that they were getting ready for bed.

I'm about the same age as you and had a similar thing happen, but mine happened in Philly. I lived in the Philly burbs at the time and really think at that age a lot not all, but a lot of college guys just assume that is ok. I was locked in the car and literally fought and almost busted out his window, finally got the door open and started walking. He then tried to get me back in the car, said he was sorry and would drive me back to my car. I walked it back and luckily was only about 5 miles away from my car so it wasn't too horrible. Thank goodness for me I got away unharmed as well. I've talked to others and a lot of girls had similar things happen. I actually would bump into this guy occasionally too and seriously think he never thought he did anything wrong.

Yes, I agree. It does seem as though that they were ready for bed. The only thing that I can think of is that the guys might have been invited over that night and the girls waited up as long as they could, but decided to go to bed. When there was a knock on the door later after they had gone to bed (and it might have only been 15 minutes later), they would have naturally thought it was the guys they had invited over, opened the door and let them in.

 

[irisheyesofblue]

Yes, I agree. It does seem as though that they were ready for bed. The only thing that I can think of is that the guys might have been invited over that night and the girls waited up as long as they could, but decided to go to bed. When there was a knock on the door later after they had gone to bed (and it might have only been 15 minutes later), they would have naturally thought it was the guys they had invited over, opened the door and let them in.

I still don't see that working because they were suppose to of stayed at a friends house and going to her house was a last min change of plans. Also even if they knew they were going back to her house would you really invite a bunch of guys back to your house when your mom is home. Just does not fit for me.

 

[HmmWhoKnows]

Yes, I had just turned 21 in February of that year. One of the reasons why I related what happened to me in 1989 was because everyone involved in that scenario was between the ages of 18 - 22, but they were a part of an organization that required initiations and rituals to be a member in good standing (a fraternity). They also expected total loyalty and secrecy from their members with the whole "brotherhood" mentality.

That said, I really don't think 18 -21 year olds could pull this off (not the 18 -21 year olds that I knew) unless they were involved in some kind of close knit group like a fraternity or gang (organizations that rely on "group think" and have leaders). I also think it would be difficult to get others to go along with this if the motive was jealousy or revenge, even if they were tricked into going along with it.

Now if the 18 - 21 year olds were guys and the motive was rape, I could see one thing leading to another and one of them freaking out that the three women would be witnesses and decide that they had to be killed. If they had been taken to another location, they would have had plenty of time to decide what to do and how to do it.

I know it is far fetched, but all it would take would be a couple of trial runs to figure out what works and what doesn't work. What happened to my friend and I could have been a trial run for something else that would occur later. It is more probable that this was totally unrelated to what happened to us, but I still wonder.

Let me get back to you on TGR. Am I guessing that his initials are used because we aren't supposed to say his name on here? Is there a thread for him that I can read?

Read all my posts then you'll know who I am talking about. He is RED's son. RED stabbed him late this summer and during a run with the cops he claimed to know where some bodies were and claims they were these women. I have "proof" that this happened.

When I started thinking with the mindset "Naaaah 18 -21 year olds couldn't pull this off" I started thinking more and more about JK and MH and their weird behavior the morning before. And how they had COMPLETE CONTROL of the crime scene. And the ENTIRE INCIDENT REPORT is in JK's point of view. Everything HINGES on that.

I started thinking, hey wait a minute, 30 year olds are dumb too. And I started thinking about how much smarter than my own parents I was at age 18. Most 18 year olds are incapable but not all. How old do you have to be to pull off this crime? I mean really. You don't have to be too bright either. You can have a little luck. And with control of the scene for as long as possible, that can go a LONG way. There's a reason JK was questioned continuously by cops for years.

RE: TGR, I think that if you can find a relation to Suzie or Stacy or JK or MH's or SA's circle of friends or the grave robber's circle of friends (DR, MC, JR) then you have a connection. There's supposedly a link between Garrison and a Grave Robber. And a link between RED and Garrison (same bike gang) so in a roundabout way you can connect him but I want a better connection. Or something that shows he wasn't involved to eliminate him completely as a POI (and RED for that matter). I'm tired of "making the shoe fit" so I want the pieces to fall as they lay. That's why I keep going back to the crime scene as opposed to the wide, wide world of Cox and Carnahan and conspiracy theories.

 

[CaliMama]

Read all my posts then you'll know who I am talking about. He is RED's son. RED stabbed him late this summer and during a run with the cops he claimed to know where some bodies were and claims they were these women. I have "proof" that this happened.

When I started thinking with the mindset "Naaaah 18 -21 year olds couldn't pull this off" I started thinking more and more about JK and MH and their weird behavior the morning before. And how they had COMPLETE CONTROL of the crime scene. And the ENTIRE INCIDENT REPORT is in JK's point of view. Everything HINGES on that.

I started thinking, hey wait a minute, 30 year olds are dumb too. And I started thinking about how much smarter than my own parents I was at age 18. Most 18 year olds are incapable but not all. How old do you have to be to pull off this crime? I mean really. You don't have to be too bright either. You can have a little luck. And with control of the scene for as long as possible, that can go a LONG way. There's a reason JK was questioned continuously by cops for years.

RE: TGR, I think that if you can find a relation to Suzie or Stacy or JK or MH's or SA's circle of friends or the grave robber's circle of friends (DR, MC, JR) then you have a connection. There's supposedly a link between Garrison and a Grave Robber. And a link between RED and Garrison (same bike gang) so in a roundabout way you can connect him but I want a better connection. Or something that shows he wasn't involved to eliminate him completely as a POI (and RED for that matter). I'm tired of "making the shoe fit" so I want the pieces to fall as they lay. That's why I keep going back to the crime scene as opposed to the wide, wide world of Cox and Carnahan and conspiracy theories.

I'll try to read through your posts tonight. I just want to throw this out there that Springfield is the kind of town where everyone knows someone who knows someone, who knows someone else, but many times they aren't even aware of the connections to each other. It was like that for me when I lived there and I only lived there for 6 years and now even 20 years later, I am still discovering connections in Springfield that I never knew existed then. It can almost feel like the Twilight Zone sometimes.

 

[pittsburghgirl]

Read all my posts then you'll know who I am talking about. He is RED's son. RED stabbed him late this summer and during a run with the cops he claimed to know where some bodies were and claims they were these women. I have "proof" that this happened.

When I started thinking with the mindset "Naaaah 18 -21 year olds couldn't pull this off" I started thinking more and more about JK and MH and their weird behavior the morning before. And how they had COMPLETE CONTROL of the crime scene. And the ENTIRE INCIDENT REPORT is in JK's point of view. Everything HINGES on that.

I started thinking, hey wait a minute, 30 year olds are dumb too. And I started thinking about how much smarter than my own parents I was at age 18. Most 18 year olds are incapable but not all. How old do you have to be to pull off this crime? I mean really. You don't have to be too bright either. You can have a little
luck. And with control of the scene for as long as possible, that can go a LONG way. There's a reason JK was questioned continuously by cops for years.

RE: TGR, I think that if you can find a relation to Suzie or Stacy or JK or MH's or SA's circle of friends or the grave robber's circle of friends (DR, MC, JR) then you have a connection. There's supposedly a link between Garrison and a Grave
Robber. And a link between RED and Garrison (same bike gang) so in a roundabout way you can connect him but I want a better connection. Or something that shows he wasn't involved to eliminate him completely as a POI (and RED for that matter). I'm tired of "making the shoe fit" so I want the pieces to fall as they lay. That's why I keep going back to the crime scene as opposed
to the wide, wide world of Cox and Carnahan and conspiracy theories.

I read your posts and was interested in the web of connections, or potential connections, you are thinking about. However, the initials are used for new players (at least new to the discussion on this sub-forum). For those of us here who aren't talking on other sites or who are not locals--totally lost. People at times raise new suspects, but unless they become a part of the fabric of the discussion, one mention is not enough to establish the new suspect or witness as part of discussion. So we could, for example, create a sticky for people whose initials we are using, if that is what people want to do. The sticky could identify people and also their connections. Or we could do what we always have done, which is use people's full names or last names. It's a big sub-forum, with lots of posts and it's a lot to expect people to go back to re-read posts if they have forgotten someone who has not been "on the radar" in the thread. All of this is moot if you contacted the mods and they said to use initials.

Which brings me to the next question--are there links to mainstream media that name these individuals as people who are suspects? We are supposed to provide links for discussions of suspects, etc.

All of that said, what you are suggesting about the connections among these people would certainly go a ways to answer some questions about case, not the least of which is: What did Janelle and Mike do while they had unfettered access to the house? We know they cleaned up the porch globe glass, but does anyone else remember that someone reported that there was evidence that some things had been cleaned up? The whole purse thing (the staginess of that) would take on a whole new meaning. Ha. Now I have to get to a full blown computer and look for the darn links.