The Springfield Three--missing since June 1992 - #6

[SmoothOperator]

Thanks HmmWhoKnows.. Thanks for the info that we're all aware of.. Quite obviously we cannot discuss topix, posters and their info here.. Again we are all aware of the information but it cannot be discussed here.

 

[Auramyst]

The obscene calls didn't have anything to with the perps.

Honestly, the perps are KNOWN by police. I think we're just all bored with our thumb up our *advertiser censored*.

These clowns in the GJ3 were offered up because of circumstantial evidence. Circumstantial evidence isn't enough to lock this guy up. I've heard that he is already locked up and that the buddy of his is on the loose. But if you want to know the perp, then start at the GJ3. Find THEIR associates and find their crowd and people they know if you want to do your own investigating.

"Charles Tuna" appeared to have known Garrison. Find people like that. Speculating on the phone calls and stuff is just tired rehashing of what we've all done for years.

Well, don't include all of us with whatever you're doing with *your thumb*

If you don't want to 'speculate and rehash' then you're perfectly welcome to not do so.

Meanwhile, there are several people who would like to 'discuss' this case on this 'discussion forum'.

 

[Auramyst]

Yes regarding the obscene calls/msg.. Where did we get the info about a msg being from actually Saturday?.. Because now there no mention of that and only mention of the obscene msg that came in while Janelle and Mike were there.. Imo its this msg that Janis McCall refers to hearing.. So where did info of a Saturday msg originate?

I've heard this discussed a few ways. The way I understood it happened was that there was an obscene message on the machine when the messages were listened to by the people in the house looking for the three missing women.

And then, after the messages were listened to, and sometime during the afternoon, there were two more obscene phone calls made to the house.

This account could be wrong- maybe someone has the original news articles on these events.

But, to simplify- I believe there were both obscene phone messages AND obscene phone calls.

 

[Hurricane]

Well, don't include all of us with whatever you're doing with *your thumb*

If you don't want to 'speculate and rehash' then you're perfectly welcome to not do so.

Meanwhile, there are several people who would like to 'discuss' this case on this 'discussion forum'.

In my opinion there are problems with speculation and rehash that is not based in the facts of the case. To post something just to see what response it will elicit is just wrong. This case as discussed here on Websleuths has always been held tightly to the facts and that is why so many want to read and post here. In my opinion there are many other forums on the internet in which to speculate without evidence to back up the speculation.

I know I'll get in trouble for my comment but it needed to be said.

 

[Auramyst]

In my opinion there are problems with speculation and rehash that is not based in the facts of the case. To post something just to see what response it will elicit is just wrong. This case as discussed here on Websleuths has always been held tightly to the facts and that is why so many want to read and post here. In my opinion there are many other forums on the internet in which to speculate without evidence to back up the speculation.

I know I'll get in trouble for my comment but it needed to be said.

I agree that Websleuths is an excellent forum. I, too, appreciate the discussions here are 'fact based.'

I disagree with folks who come onto this forum to dictate what facts should and shouldn't be discussed.

Any answers to the question of 'who did it' is speculation. Some may have come to a conclusion- based on their own investigation- of 'who did it'. I appreciate their 'opinion' and 'conclusions' but do not appreciate them shutting down a 'discussion'.

Most of the posters on this forum are either asking for clarification, asking others for their opinions based on their views of the facts, or coming to their own 'conclusions' based on their interpretations of that facts.

Many are new to this case, they are in the early process of their investigations and are going to discuss the purses, the phone messages, and whatever they deem relevant to their investigative process.

Nowhere in this process am I endorsing 'speculation and rehash that is not based in fact'. Most who post here are trying very hard to base their posts on facts. They may not know all the facts that you claim to know, but as I said, they are learning.

For those who are years into this investigation, and get impatient with what you deem are petty questions- well, I apologize that we are all not as advanced in this process as you are.

This is a 'discussion forum'. The poster in the above discussion has a right to ask a question. If someone knows the answer, then by all means answer the question. If the question is 'beneath their level of expertise', then it would be much more appropriate to remain silent. Inflammatory and demeaning posts are disruptive and quite cruel. Hurricane, you are right to point out the TOS. They do apply to everyone.

 

[Hurricane]

I agree that Websleuths is an excellent forum. I, too, appreciate the discussions here are 'fact based.'

I disagree with folks who come onto this forum to dictate what facts should and shouldn't be discussed.

Any answers to the question of 'who did it' is speculation. Some may have come to a conclusion- based on their own investigation- of 'who did it'. I appreciate their 'opinion' and 'conclusions' but do not appreciate them shutting down a 'discussion'.

Most of the posters on this forum are either asking for clarification, asking others for their opinions based on their views of the facts, or coming to their own 'conclusions' based on their interpretations of that facts.

Many are new to this case, they are in the early process of their investigations and are going to discuss the purses, the phone messages, and whatever they deem relevant to their investigative process.

Nowhere in this process am I endorsing 'speculation and rehash that is not based in fact'. Most who post here are trying very hard to base their posts on facts. They may not know all the facts that you claim to know, but as I said, they are learning.

For those who are years into this investigation, and get impatient with what you deem are petty questions- well, I apologize that we are all not as advanced in this process as you are.

This is a 'discussion forum'. The poster in the above discussion has a right to ask a question. If someone knows the answer, then by all means answer the question. If the question is 'beneath their level of expertise', then it would be much more appropriate to remain silent. Inflammatory and demeaning posts are disruptive and quite cruel. Hurricane, you are right to point out the TOS. They do apply to everyone.

Not sure if you are accusing me of dictating what facts may be discussed or not, or of killing discussions or not. My whole point is simply support theories with documented facts that others may verify from the source should they choose to. If a poster is unwilling or unable to do so then don't use the fact. Thread #3 was locked down because of all the baloney that was being thrown about in violation of TOS with the idea of editing out the violations and reopening the thread. When it became apparent it was not possible to edit out all the violations that had been allowed to go on for so long the thread was lost forever. I personally don't want to see that happen again.

Look at Proboards for another example. That was set up after AirAlex deteriorated to the point of being mostly boasts and baloney by users with multiple screen names. Proboards was going to be factually based and your participation was not welcome if you weren't willing to share all your factual information. You can see how long that lasted. It went down hill pretty quick. The only thing it possibly eliminated was the use of multiple screen names.

In any event this case will not be solved by sitting behind a computer screen in a group think tank.

 

[Missouri Mule]

Pardon me for butting in here but isn't it true that in the absence of a solution to a criminal case such as this that the police would brainstorm ideas of what might explain what happened? So I am not really getting the admonition that is is wrong to speculate. The police won't tell us because they use the boilerplate "this is an open case" and that's the extent of what we know. So what are we to do? And what, really, is the purpose of this forum? If we are to stick to the "facts", then why don't we list these provable "facts" and work from there?

I'll start.

Three women were taken between the hours of 11:15 PM and 7 AM the next morning. That allows enough time to get all three women either individually or together.

What else do we know? What do we REALLY know?

Yes, some of us know who the GJ3 are but does that advance the case? Are they even involved? We don't even know that for a certain fact. Was Cox involved? Every time I have brought up his name I have been shouted down. But is it a fact that he wasn't involved? One "fact" we do know is that he concocted a phony alibi. So I guess we have two "facts" in total.

Now I will "speculate." I believe that some here know who took these women. Some have studied the case extensively and have reliable sources. Again this is "speculation."

So we have two provable facts and one "speculation" on my part.

Help me out here.

 

[Hurricane]

Pardon me for butting in here but isn't it true that in the absence of a solution to a criminal case such as this that the police would brainstorm ideas of what might explain what happened? So I am not really getting the admonition that is is wrong to speculate. The police won't tell us because they use the boilerplate "this is an open case" and that's the extent of what we know. So what are we to do? And what, really, is the purpose of this forum? If we are to stick to the "facts", then why don't we list these provable "facts" and work from there?

I'll start.

Three women were taken between the hours of 11:15 PM and 7 AM the next morning. That allows enough time to get all three women either individually or together.

What else do we know? What do we REALLY know?

Yes, some of us know who the GJ3 are but does that advance the case? Are they even involved? We don't even know that for a certain fact. Was Cox involved? Every time I have brought up his name I have been shouted down. But is it a fact that he wasn't involved? One "fact" we do know is that he concocted a phony alibi. So I guess we have two "facts" in total.

Now I will "speculate." I believe that some here know who took these women. Some have studied the case extensively and have reliable sources. Again this is "speculation."

So we have two provable facts and one "speculation" on my part.

Help me out here.

Richard, I can't help you out and you know why.

 

[Auramyst]

Not sure if you are accusing me of dictating what facts may be discussed or not, or of killing discussions or not. My whole point is simply support theories with documented facts that others may verify from the source should they choose to. If a poster is unwilling or unable to do so then don't use the fact. Thread #3 was locked down because of all the baloney that was being thrown about in violation of TOS with the idea of editing out the violations and reopening the thread. When it became apparent it was not possible to edit out all the violations that had been allowed to go on for so long the thread was lost forever. I personally don't want to see that happen again.

Look at Proboards for another example. That was set up after AirAlex deteriorated to the point of being mostly boasts and baloney by users with multiple screen names. Proboards was going to be factually based and your participation was not welcome if you weren't willing to share all your factual information. You can see how long that lasted. It went down hill pretty quick. The only thing it possibly eliminated was the use of multiple screen names.

In any event this case will not be solved by sitting behind a computer screen in a group think tank.

Hurricane- No, I am not accusing you of anything. You and I are essentially saying the same thing.

I was unable to view thread 3 on this forum or AirAlex before they were shut down, but I believe you when you say those are the reasons it was shut down. I, and others, are suffering the consequences of not being able to view the valuable information that those venues offered before they disintegrated.

I want to see this case solved. No, we probably won't do it sitting behind a computer screen in a group think tank. I do not live anywhere near Springfield. I was not able to view 1992 N-L news articles while they were available on-line. Info I have has come from previous threads on WS, and the scant details currently available on-line. I have no delusions that my posts do anything except (hopefully) further the discussion.

However, I am interested in helping solve missing persons cases. I keep photos of the missing nearby, I look for their faces in crowds, I try to come up with new ideas to support old evidence, and I try to keep open minded about theories that are not the same as mine. The point of my earlier post was that no one should shut down this discussion purely because 'they are tired of rehashing about the same things'. These subjects (purses, phone calls) may be 'old' material to some, but it is 'new' material to others.

I apologize if you thought that was directed at you.

Either way, upon reviewing TOS, I see that I should have reported the 'inappropriate post' instead of responding (the inappropriate post I am referring to is not yours, Hurricane). So, that's what I will do next time. I will report it instead of responding to it.

 

[monkeymann]

Richard, I can't help you out and you know why.

Richard, I don't mean to split hairs here, but the actual time line would be more like 11:15pm (Time Sherrill was last heard from) and 12:30pm Sunday, (The time that Janelle & Mike actually "Went" to the house.)

Janelle said on the original police report that she started calling the house at around 7:00am Sunday morning.

However, later, during the Disappeared Video, she changed the time that she said she started calling to 9:30am Sunday morning, instead of 7:00am, as stated in the original police report.

And, looking at this realistically, the time should be extended to 12:30pm Sunday because that is the time Janelle & Mike actually went to the house. Just because Janelle started calling in the morning, doesn't necessarily mean that the girls were gone by that time.
(Personally I think they were gone before the sun came up Sunday morning, but no one actually physically "SAW" that they were not at the house until 12:30pm when Janelle & Mike went to the house.)

 

[Missouri Mule]

Richard, I don't mean to split hairs here, but the actual time line would be more like 11:15pm (Time Sherrill was last heard from) and 12:30pm Sunday, (The time that Janelle & Mike actually "Went" to the house.)

Janelle said on the original police report that she started calling the house at around 7:00am Sunday morning.

However, later, during the Disappeared Video, she changed the time that she said she started calling to 9:30am Sunday morning, instead of 7:00am, as stated in the original police report.

And, looking at this realistically, the time should be extended to 12:30pm Sunday because that is the time Janelle & Mike actually went to the house. Just because Janelle started calling in the morning, doesn't necessarily mean that the girls were gone by that time.
(Personally I think they were gone before the sun came up Sunday morning, but no one actually physically "SAW" that they were not at the house until 12:30pm when Janelle & Mike went to the house.)

You are correct. No one can prove physically that the women were not in the house during the hours of 7 AM to 12:30 PM. But because we know that sunrise was at 5:53 AM and "civil twilight" was even earlier at 5:22 AM when objects are visible to the naked eye, (even though the sun has not actually 'risen') the chances of anything going on there were slight to none. People start moving around, joggers get out, cars drive along the street, etc. That's why I used the 7 AM as a "cut-off" time when the women had to have been gone.

 

[SmoothOperator]

In my previous post madam, I was not responding to your's since I specifically did not quote it as I am doing now. The anon posters I refer to are those all over these various forums which discuss this case who make the claim to have personally seen Suzie at various locations where drugs were used or distributed with Dustin Recla, etc. When LE pays little attention to their tip because the timeline does not fit they accuse LE of being dirty or not working the case and blowing them off.

By all means madam, please carry on with your opinions. I won't bother you again.

My apologies, Hurricane. As I just read my post and your reply under it and see I was rather b(i)tchy to say the least.. Again my apologies.. I can only say that I do become defensive due to the fact that it does seem,at times that there is a definite line that's been drawn in the sand where this case is concerned.. And by far it's not just here at WS.. It's across the board that the line appears to be drawn in the sand.. And I personally find it very frustrating, and at times angering because imo the three beautiful women seem to get lost in the bs and it becomes more of a battle of wills, a battle of who knows more, a battle of who has more access to the info.. And honestly that's just frustrating(and I'm not directing this at you Hurricane.. I'm saying this is across the board regarding this case)..

I've read about this case for years.. Several times digging into what I could find about the case, but always had refrained from posting about the case for the very reasons I expressed above.. Nonetheless here I am and all I can do is trudge forward, attempting to put pieces together about what happened to these three beautiful women..

My apologies for popping off at the mouth, hurricane.

 

[Hurricane]

My apologies, Hurricane. As I just read my post and your reply under it and see I was rather b(i)tchy to say the least.. Again my apologies.. I can only say that I do become defensive due to the fact that it does seem,at times that there is a definite line that's been drawn in the sand where this case is concerned.. And by far it's not just here at WS.. It's across the board that the line appears to be drawn in the sand.. And I personally find it very frustrating, and at times angering because imo the three beautiful women seem to get lost in the bs and it becomes more of a battle of wills, a battle of who knows more, a battle of who has more access to the info.. And honestly that's just frustrating(and I'm not directing this at you Hurricane.. I'm saying this is across the board regarding this case)..

I've read about this case for years.. Several times digging into what I could find about the case, but always had refrained from posting about the case for the very reasons I expressed above.. Nonetheless here I am and all I can do is trudge forward, attempting to put pieces together about what happened to these three beautiful women..

My apologies for popping off at the mouth, hurricane.

You know Smooth, there are a couple of other cases here on Websleuths that I follow almost daily (at least one) and there are 5 or 6 researchers on that case that are top notch and really have the facts down and do good work (I hate the word investigators for what it is we do). I won't name it but as far as I'm concerned it is the premier case here on Websleuths. But you know what? Even though I have an extreme interest in that case I think I have only posted there once or twice to ask a question on where to find a certain quote. I don't post there because I don't thoroughly know the facts; the case is centered hundreds of miles away from where I live; and I don't have the time to devote to another case. But that doesn't stop me from following and appreciating their hard work. And I certainly don't expect those on that case to break from their research to spoon feed me either! And they get their share of wannabes and newbies posting too. And I understand that need to want to post because it's an important case and everybody has opinions. But most of the time the wannabes can't be bothered to even read the threads let alone learn any of the real facts of the case.

The 3MW case is not going to be solved or closed by the internet. Everyone is free to invest whatever amount of time, money, and energy they wish into whatever they do. There are all kinds of records available to the public if you just follow the evidence. But these records are not on the internet. I've traveled in 4 states after such records. I wish I had the time because I could go on a 5 or 6 day road trip working this case right now. I have no idea how much money I have spent; I haven't even tried to keep track and that's not important to me. And as Kathee has said, everyone is free to seek out witnesses, friends and families of the victims to see if they will grant you an interview on or off the record. See how hard first hand that is to do and what agreements are made to obtain their cooperation. They will all be willing to do the right thing on the record when the time comes but if any of us doing this kind of work would mention specific things we have learned on a public forum, all cooperation would stop. Your word to witnesses and researchers is everything and once broken can't be mended.

And please don't take this as being directed toward you or anyone specifically, but whenever I see a poster with 4,000 or 5,000 posts accumulated in just 2 or 3 years, that tells me they don't spend much time working on anything.

I hope this explains maybe a little bit about how that line in the sand got there.

 

[SmoothOperator]

You know Smooth, there are a couple of other cases here on Websleuths that I follow almost daily (at least one) and there are 5 or 6 researchers on that case that are top notch and really have the facts down and do good work (I hate the word investigators for what it is we do). I won't name it but as far as I'm concerned it is the premier case here on Websleuths. But you know what? Even though I have an extreme interest in that case I think I have only posted there once or twice to ask a question on where to find a certain quote. I don't post there because I don't thoroughly know the facts; the case is centered hundreds of miles away from where I live; and I don't have the time to devote to another case. But that doesn't stop me from following and appreciating their hard work. And I certainly don't expect those on that case to break from their research to spoon feed me either! And they get their share of wannabes and newbies posting too. And I understand that need to want to post because it's an important case and everybody has opinions. But most of the time the wannabes can't be bothered to even read the threads let alone learn any of the real facts of the case.

The 3MW case is not going to be solved or closed by the internet. Everyone is free to invest whatever amount of time, money, and energy they wish into whatever they do. There are all kinds of records available to the public if you just follow the evidence. But these records are not on the internet. I've traveled in 4 states after such records. I wish I had the time because I could go on a 5 or 6 day road trip working this case right now. I have no idea how much money I have spent; I haven't even tried to keep track and that's not important to me. And as Kathee has said, everyone is free to seek out witnesses, friends and families of the victims to see if they will grant you an interview on or off the record. See how hard first hand that is to do and what agreements are made to obtain their cooperation. They will all be willing to do the right thing on the record when the time comes but if any of us doing this kind of work would mention specific things we have learned on a public forum, all cooperation would stop. Your word to witnesses and researchers is everything and once broken can't be mended.

And please don't take this as being directed toward you or anyone specifically, but whenever I see a poster with 4,000 or 5,000 posts accumulated in just 2 or 3 years, that tells me they don't spend much time working on anything.

I hope this explains maybe a little bit about how that line in the sand got there.

I understand. I thank you for your reply.

 

[monkeymann]

That doesn't mean that we cant still talk about the case. It certainly doesn't hurt anything. And I can't believe that no action, or not talking about the case can be detramental to the case at this point. I think figuring out what happened to the 3MW and where they are, to provide a little comforting closure to this case, is as equal of a priority as figuring out who actually comitted the crime.

Unless of course, remains were found on the Webster Co. Farm, and/or police have already determined what happened to the 3MW and what happened to their bodies, and have informed the families already....thus providing "Some" closure to them, but also made them agree not to talk about the case, incase they eventually "Did" have some evidence that would enable them to bring charges against someone.

Sounds very likely......???

Anyone else want to comment on this..........

 

[Missouri Mule]

That doesn't mean that we cant still talk about the case. It certainly doesn't hurt anything. And I can't believe that no action, or not talking about the case can be detramental to the case at this point. I think figuring out what happened to the 3MW and where they are, to provide a little comforting closure to this case, is as equal of a priority as figuring out who actually comitted the crime.

Unless of course, remains were found on the Webster Co. Farm, and/or police have already determined what happened to the 3MW and what happened to their bodies, and have informed the families already....thus providing "Some" closure to them, but also made them agree not to talk about the case, incase they eventually "Did" have some evidence that would enable them to bring charges against someone.

Sounds very likely......???

Anyone else want to comment on this..........

If they had any physical evidence of the deceased the police would have to move this to the official homicide category. We still have some who will posit the view that the women are in witsec. That is nigh impossible. I believe it would have leaked out by now.

It wouldn't make it a homicide if only DNA or blood identified as belonging to one or more of the women. They would need proof that the women were actually dead. What they need are human bones that could be identified as being the deceased.

 

[Auramyst]

That doesn't mean that we cant still talk about the case. It certainly doesn't hurt anything. And I can't believe that no action, or not talking about the case can be detramental to the case at this point. I think figuring out what happened to the 3MW and where they are, to provide a little comforting closure to this case, is as equal of a priority as figuring out who actually comitted the crime.

I agree with you 100%. Thank you posting this!

 

[SmoothOperator]

I am for continuing to discuss this case as well and believe that for the absolute most part our discussion, theories, and dialogue regarding these 3MW can be of no detriment.. I understand concerns of some wild tangent discussions regarding this case and believe those concerns to be valid, but will say that for the most part here at WS those type careless and reckless discussions are not what takes place..

All jmo tho..

 

[HmmWhoKnows]

Hurricane is right. No one is going to solve this case pressing other people on the internet for information. It takes some trips to the library and some phone calls and things like that.

It took me a month to track down names of the all the potential waterbed delivery guys. And half the names were hard to find information on because the names were too common or they moved away. Things like this are what you need to do to advance on this case but sometimes they lead nowhere and you have to go back to the drawing board. The forums are a good "drawing board" but they should be more like "spring boards" to your next investigation. And then share what you've found (I suggest privately first in case the information could lead to danger).

Speculation is 100% a waste of time. Only facts are to be dealt with. And names should only be brought up if there's a very good possibility they were at or around the home that night. If you speculate at all, it should be only to be the reason you're about to embark on your own personal investigation into someone or some thing. Or divide and conquer with other people on the forums, there's another suggestion. Do what the cops do, work from the center of the crime and outward and add up all the tips you know of and find true links, not fabricated stories like "Can't Say" does. Check alibis. Cross reference. All that stuff. Criminal investigating isn't rocket science either. Just takes some strong logical thinking and a little bit of psychology skills.

 

[monkeymann]

Hurricane is right. No one is going to solve this case pressing other people on the internet for information. It takes some trips to the library and some phone calls and things like that.

Now wait a minute here. You've asked people for information they had on the 3MW crime. What makes your inquires different than everyone elses?
Just asking.....

It took me a month to track down names of the all the potential waterbed delivery guys. And half the names were hard to find information on because the names were too common or they moved away. Things like this are what you need to do to advance on this case but sometimes they lead nowhere and you have to go back to the drawing board. The forums are a good "drawing board" but they should be more like "spring boards" to your next investigation. And then share what you've found (I suggest privately first in case the information could lead to danger).

But that exactly what the problem is. No one will share information that they have been able to "Track Down". They act like just because they were able to take the time out of their lives to actually go out an track down some leads, something that some of us aren't as able to do, that that makes it "Their" privileged information, and they refuse to share! But then the same people expect others to divulge the information they have, but then never reciprocate, or leave you hanging with partial information that they never answer follow-up/clarification questions on. Some have said this is just to keep people interested in the case......Others have said it is just down right frustrating that people do this. Others seem to not see the detriment in doing this.

Speculation is 100% a waste of time. Only facts are to be dealt with.

However, Speculating about how the facts fit together is definitely NOT a 100% waste of time. If people would just share the facts about the case that they have, so we can speculate on them, people wouldn't be speculating on the "Crazy Stuff".

And names should only be brought up if there's a very good possibility they were at or around the home that night.

Agreed!!

If you speculate at all, it should be only to be the reason you're about to embark on your own personal investigation into someone or some thing. Or divide and conquer with other people on the forums, there's another suggestion. Do what the cops do, work from the center of the crime and outward and add up all the tips you know of and find true links, not fabricated stories like "Can't Say" does. Check alibis. Cross reference. All that stuff. Criminal investigating isn't rocket science either. Just takes some strong logical thinking and a little bit of psychology skills.

People need to quit indulging "The Crazy".....