The Springfield Three--missing since June 1992 - #6

[Hurricane]

What I remember about the "Yard Sale Lady" was that the van was said to be driving "like a bat ...." and that (going strictly on memory) the driver seemed to bear the likeness of someone who has often been associated with certain illicit activities. (But that is going strictly on memory). I'd rather not put a name to this individual.

I have no idea if this woman was thoroughly questioned or if it was knocked down but in reading her comments on another forum or somewhere that is my recollection.

I don't know of anything that would rule out the Yard Sale Lady's story but I believe the witness statements of the N-L paper carrier implicitly. After all she drove the same route delivering newspapers every morning she worked and would certainly notice things that were out of the ordinary. She came forward immediately and reported the van she witnessed parked on S. Kentwood at 4:30ish AM, among other things. Does that leave enough time for the YSL's sighting also at 4:30ish? Certainly. But I have a hard time with any witness who comes forward years later making the claim they called SPD but no one bothered to call them back; I just don't believe that! Every tip taken by callers was written down on an index card and investigators were sent to interview the witness and turn in what they found out on that same card. That's how the FBI does it and Knowles caught a lot of flack for "micromanaging" the investigation. And if the YSL really saw something she felt was important wouldn't the onus be on her to keep trying until she got someone to listen, or does she just forget about it until years later? I would also question her being out at 4:30 AM on a Sunday morning putting up signs for her garage sale. Each will form their own but it just doesn't add up in my opinion.

 

[Missouri Mule]

I don't know of anything that would rule out the Yard Sale Lady's story but I believe the witness statements of the N-L paper carrier implicitly. After all she drove the same route delivering newspapers every morning she worked and would certainly notice things that were out of the ordinary. She came forward immediately and reported the van she witnessed parked on S. Kentwood at 4:30ish AM, among other things. Does that leave enough time for the YSL's sighting also at 4:30ish? Certainly. But I have a hard time with any witness who comes forward years later making the claim they called SPD but no one bothered to call them back; I just don't believe that! Every tip taken by callers was written down on an index card and investigators were sent to interview the witness and turn in what they found out on that same card. That's how the FBI does it and Knowles caught a lot of flack for "micromanaging" the investigation. And if the YSL really saw something she felt was important wouldn't the onus be on her to keep trying until she got someone to listen, or does she just forget about it until years later? I would also question her being out at 4:30 AM on a Sunday morning putting up signs for her garage sale. Each will form their own but it just doesn't add up in my opinion.

I can't find anything with your post to disagree with. I don't know however when the YSL first provided this information. Was it back then or only recently? I'm not clear on that.

I do know this from personal knowledge. The police did follow up on tips. I worked in the State Office Building in the square and observed a similar van across the street in the lot next the driver's license bureau's parking lot . I called it in and it didn't take more than about five-ten minutes for a group of plain clothes detectives (?) to show up and examine that van and determine it was not the one they were looking for.

I have however heard second hand that neighbors nearby the Delmar residence were not questioned about the alleged dirty white van that frequented the neighborhood just prior to the abductions and then was never to be seen again. I believe one of those nearbys was one of the reporters who wrote this story or so I was informed. I don't stand behind hearsay information so can't confirm it one way or another.

I agree completely about the newspaper carrier though. I have found that one can almost set their clocks to when they will show up. I have a habit of picking up newspapers for the neighbors where I live and they come every day almost to the minute.

The Kentwood location of the van is interesting in one respect and I'd like your take on it. Why would it be parked there? Was this perhaps related to the alleged burglars and dropped pocket knife? There was certainly room for it in the driveway. And I think you would agree that it would have had to have been moved in place to take the women as they would not have all been taken up to the corner to put them.

 

[PoirotryInMotion]

Regarding Craig Woods, what does anybody know about his physical appearance in June '92? How would that compare to the composite sketches that were done early on in the case of the 3MW? Can the infamous green van be attributed to CW somehow?

I'm sure my inquiry seems trivial compared to the vast amounts of research being poured into this case, but my curiosity comes from the six year old boy in me that moved to Springfield from Pleasant Hope in the summer of '92. I remember the posters everywhere, the various updates on the radio, the now yearly segment on the 10 o'clock news....and still nothing solid has emerged.

Praying for a breakthrough.

No problem with questioning; I've been curious, myself. The online yearbook stuff has been blacked out. But I have several screenshots of CMW from the band's FBK pages (before they were wiped clean of his image).

This first one is cropped from a photo that was camera-dated 26 Sep 2005:



This second one is undated. (Many of these were older photos entered onto the FBK pages in 2011, but from obviously different eras.) It may be my imagination, but it appears he is slightly less gray in this photo--though I can't be sure of an earlier date for this one. It has made me wonder, though, if CW would fit with the witness' description of the van guy who had longer hair, sideburns, and a beard. (I haven't seen the composite sketches, so if someone has a link to that it'd be appreciated.) Here's that sideburn photo:

 

[Hurricane]

I have however heard second hand that neighbors nearby the Delmar residence were not questioned about the alleged dirty white van that frequented the neighborhood just prior to the abductions and then was never to be seen again. I believe one of those nearbys was one of the reporters who wrote this story or so I was informed. I don't stand behind hearsay information so can't confirm it one way or another.




The Kentwood location of the van is interesting in one respect and I'd like your take on it. Why would it be parked there? Was this perhaps related to the alleged burglars and dropped pocket knife? There was certainly room for it in the driveway. And I think you would agree that it would have had to have been moved in place to take the women as they would not have all been taken up to the corner to put them.

Not true. After all it was the neighbors who first told SPD about the van seen driving thru the neighborhood and it was one of several reasons why the neighborhood was canvassed again by LE in Aug; to see if the van had been seen since.

The S. Kentwood sighting has all been hashed out before. This thread seems to have turned into just another Topix thread so I'm going to drop out and quit posting for now.

 

[Missouri Mule]

Not true. After all it was the neighbors who first told SPD about the van seen driving thru the neighborhood and it was one of several reasons why the neighborhood was canvassed again by LE in Aug; to see if the van had been seen since.

The S. Kentwood sighting has all been hashed out before. This thread seems to have turned into just another Topix thread so I'm going to drop out and quit posting for now.

I think I was misinterpreted. What I attempted to convey was that one of the reporters who lived nearby was not questioned after the van came to light. He apparently was not aware of it prior to their going missing and was surprised no one asked him about it.

The matter of the placement of the van was the thrust of my questions. I'm not understanding why it was apparently at the corner of Kentwood and Delmar. That has often intrigued me as it surely would have had to have been moved in place. Stated somewhat differently, was this an "accidental" occurrence or a preplanned event? That might explain how the GJ3 got caught up in this investigation.

 

[Hurricane]

I think I was misinterpreted. What I attempted to convey was that one of the reporters who lived nearby was not questioned after the van came to light. He apparently was not aware of it prior to their going missing and was surprised no one asked him about it.

Sorry if I misinterpreted what you said but you did say "neighbors". The "nearby" you are referring to did not live on the route driven by the white van so there was probably no need to canvass specifically about the van that far away and off route. And if he didn't know anything about the van beforehand he obviously had not seen it, so it sounds like he is looking for a reason to find fault with the fact that he wasn't asked about it.

Just wanted to clear that up. Now I'm out.

 

[hipmomx2]

I'm sure this has been discussed but I've heard of several unsolved cases where families, etc. were able to get information through the Freedom of Information Act. Has this been done?

 

[hipmomx2]

And as far as forensic evidence on the purses, I would think if you are trying to subdue 3 people and you were interested in the purses, wouldn't it be much more efficient to just take them rather than rifle through each one?

 

[CaliMama]

And as far as forensic evidence on the purses, I would think if you are trying to subdue 3 people and you were interested in the purses, wouldn't it be much more efficient to just take them rather than rifle through each one?

If I remember correctly, Sherril had $800 in her purse and it was not stolen.
The only reason that I can think of that the purses were all lined up like that is because someone was looking for something specific in the purses and it wasn't money. It has been suggested that the cars were moved. Maybe someone gathered the purses to look for keys to each vehicle to move the cars or the women were ordered to place their purses there so that the perp could get the keys etc??? This is just speculation and an opinion, not fact.

 

[TexasT]

I lived in Springfield in the late 80's and more then one occasion had to walk home from work ( Battlefield mall) , up Glenstone to points north of Delmar. I don't recall at that time being overly concerned about my welfare. The landscape may have changed by '92 ?

Recla and associates had a motive , but they didn't seem bright enough from the stunts they previously pulled to commit this without any evidence, and deceive investigators.

It's Very unfortunate that Mike and Janelle did not listen to the voice telling them something was wrong and call Police immediately, instead of going off to a water park ??. May have preserved some crucial evidence before all the do-gooders trampled through the home.

One thing I just noticed on a replay of the "Disappeared " episode from 2011, is the home has been remodeled since '92 and the porch light fixture does not even exist anymore.

Regards,
TT

 

[Hurricane]

I lived in Springfield in the late 80's and more then one occasion had to walk home from work ( Battlefield mall) , up Glenstone to points north of Delmar. I don't recall at that time being overly concerned about my welfare. The landscape may have changed by '92 ?

Recla and associates had a motive , but they didn't seem bright enough from the stunts they previously pulled to commit this without any evidence, and deceive investigators.

It's Very unfortunate that Mike and Janelle did not listen to the voice telling them something was wrong and call Police immediately, instead of going off to a water park ??. May have preserved some crucial evidence before all the do-gooders trampled through the home.

One thing I just noticed on a replay of the "Disappeared " episode from 2011, is the home has been remodeled since '92 and the porch light fixture does not even exist anymore.

Regards,
TT

I don't think the landscape as you called it had changed much from the late 80's to 92. The only concern one might have as a pedestrian walking on Glenstone might be being hit because of all the heavy traffic, and that hasn't changed much. There has always been a bus stop there on Glenstone that serves as a transfer stop for those changing busses. If there was any truth to homeless-type people seen frequently in the area and using the area behind the bldgs facing Glenstone & north of Delmar to E. Grand to congregate, drink or whatever, they probably arrived there by bus. The male transient featured in the composite was only seen in the area 3 times: twice in one day, and once the following day as I recall. He probably came from the bus stop. It was never like he was canvassing 1717. That's why he was dropped quickly by SPD.

I don't know of any motive that the grave robbers would have unless you are referring to the often spoke of statement made to LE by Suzie. But as Clay recently said himself, Recla & Riedel were going to get probation with no jail time thru a plea and Clay was only looking at 5 yrs & possibly serving 1 yr before being released. Hardly a reason to abduct, sexually assault (as LE believes happened) & murder 3 women.

The house has been extensively remodeled inside and out (probably to change the appearance on the outside to discourage all the drive-by lookers) more than once since 1992. The porch light is now recessed into the porch ceiling.

 

[TexasT]

I don't know of any motive that the grave robbers would have unless you are referring to the often spoke of statement made to LE by Suzie. But as Clay recently said himself, Recla & Riedel were going to get probation with no jail time thru a plea and Clay was only looking at 5 yrs & possibly serving 1 yr before being released. Hardly a reason to abduct, sexually assault (as LE believes happened) & murder 3 women.
Only 5 years jail time ? People reguarly evade, fight/Kill Police for misdmeanors. Anyone that would pluck fillings from a corpse has already shown deviant behavior. I believe The first Officer that responded to his residence also observed what was reported as satanic paraphanialia. That was later removed. This wasn't a teen that was toliet papering the neighbors houses. Clay's alibi was never "confirmed or denied" and can not be rulled out as a person of interest.

The house has been extensively remodeled inside and out (probably to change the appearance on the outside to discourage all the drive-by lookers) more than once since 1992. The porch light is now recessed into the porch ceiling.

Regards,
TT

 

[Hurricane]

Only 5 years jail time ? People reguarly evade, fight/Kill Police for misdmeanors. Anyone that would pluck fillings from a corpse has already shown deviant behavior. I believe The first Officer that responded to his residence also observed what was reported as satanic paraphanialia. That was later removed. This wasn't a teen that was toliet papering the neighbors houses. Clay's alibi was never "confirmed or denied" and can not be rulled out as a person of interest

Regards,
TT

Probably the only reasons that Clay was looking at 5 yrs (serving 1) and not a plea deal as well was: A) of the 2 boys who entered the mausoleum he was the one who lite the skull on fire; B) he fled to CA (even if to visit a girlfriend, it doesn't look good); C) he couldn't afford an attorney like Recla & Riedel could, and part of their plea deals was to testify against him if necessary; and D) 5 yrs falls into the sentencing guidelines for this crime. It doesn't matter what you think you know about his so-called deviant behavior. And I would challenge you to name one case where a police officer has been killed by someone facing a misdemeanor charge.

Only a complete idiot would throw away their complete life to keep from serving 12 months over a charge of vandalism they committed while on hallucinogenic drugs by abducting, sexually assaulting, murdering 3 women and disposing of their remains a few months later. And if you assume for the moment that it is not likely that one individual would be capable of pulling such a crime off by themselves, only a bigger fool would throw away a sentence of probation to help their best friend!

If you have any circumstantial evidence to the contrary please bring it!

 

[fullmoon]

"So called" deviant behavior? I agree with TexasT. The incident was not some average teen prank. It was very disturbing behavior. I think the three grave robbers absolutely had motive. Not so much to avoid prosecution, but revenge. Clay always complains that the media are lying about him, the police are lying about him. Everyone's lying. But he's not. There may have been a lot more to Suzi's statement than the grave robbing incident. Just my opinion.

 

[Hurricane]

"So called" deviant behavior? I agree with TexasT. The incident was not some average teen prank. It was very disturbing behavior. I think the three grave robbers absolutely had motive. Not so much to avoid prosecution, but revenge. Clay always complains that the media are lying about him, the police are lying about him. Everyone's lying. But he's not. There may have been a lot more to Suzi's statement than the grave robbing incident. Just my opinion.

No one said it wasn't very disturbing behavior, but I don't believe it had anything to do with the abduction, rape and murder of 3 women. And there is no evidence to indicate otherwise.

Here are the facts concerning the cemetery and the disturbing behavior it is frequently the recipient of. The cemetery is only about 5-6 blocks from the nearest college campus and frat house row. The day I was there there were college coeds sunbathing among the graves (now that's disturbing behavior). This cemetery gets vandalized in some fashion every year, as told to me by the historian and the caretaker there. The mausoleum is one of 3 or 4 (can't remember which) that were all built with a stained glass window making them easy to get into. The very same mausoleum was broken into again just a few years later (1996 as I recall). At one time the mausoleum next door to it had it's front doors broken into but entry was not made (sorry, don't remember the year). The stained glass windows in the 3 or 4 mausoleums have all been removed and replaced with sheet metal sometime since 1996, making them more secure.

Suzie would likely have heard from Recla his version of events (he stayed outside; boosted the other two in). They used her car. What else could she have known that would make her statement so damaging to Clay that would go beyond what Recla and Riedel would testify to and result in the murder of 3 women?

I am most interested in your belief that the 3 women were abducted, sexually assaulted and murdered by the grave robbers, not to avoid prosecution of the institutional vandalism charge but for revenge. Revenge of what? I would expect you to present some circumstantial evidence to substantiate your belief and not just drop a "JMO" out there. "JMO's" will never get this case into a court of law. This is Websleuths; not WebOpinions.

 

[fullmoon]

No one said it wasn't very disturbing behavior, but I don't believe it had anything to do with the abduction, rape and murder of 3 women. And there is no evidence to indicate otherwise.

Here are the facts concerning the cemetery and the disturbing behavior it is frequently the recipient of. The cemetery is only about 5-6 blocks from the nearest college campus and frat house row. The day I was there there were college coeds sunbathing among the graves (now that's disturbing behavior). This cemetery gets vandalized in some fashion every year, as told to me by the historian and the caretaker there. The mausoleum is one of 3 or 4 (can't remember which) that were all built with a stained glass window making them easy to get into. The very same mausoleum was broken into again just a few years later (1996 as I recall). At one time the mausoleum next door to it had it's front doors broken into but entry was not made (sorry, don't remember the year). The stained glass windows in the 3 or 4 mausoleums have all been removed and replaced with sheet metal sometime since 1996, making them more secure.

Suzie would likely have heard from Recla his version of events (he stayed outside; boosted the other two in). They used her car. What else could she have known that would make her statement so damaging to Clay that would go beyond what Recla and Riedel would testify to and result in the murder of 3 women?

I am most interested in your belief that the 3 women were abducted, sexually assaulted and murdered by the grave robbers, not to avoid prosecution of the institutional vandalism charge but for revenge. Revenge of what? I would expect you to present some circumstantial evidence to substantiate your belief and not just drop a "JMO" out there. "JMO's" will never get this case into a court of law. This is Websleuths; not WebOpinions.

College co-eds sunbathing among graves is "disturbing" behavior?" Sorry, but compared to lighting a skull's hair on fire so you can pull out the teeth of another skull, then throwing it in a tree is "disturbing" by comparison. I lived next to a cemetery and would play with friends in it - even with our dogs, under the watchful eyes of the groundskeepers. My friends and I would never have considered breaking into any of the mausoleums on the grounds much less desecrate the bodies within. The grave robbers' actions show their depravity at the time. This was not an average teen prank.

I did not say I thought the grave robbers are responsible for the abduction. I was just saying they were not taken off the table as suspects or POI. As for revenge, Suzi was very likely considered a snitch by the grave robbers. Who knows what was the extent of Suzie's testimony in 1992. There could have been more to it than "just misdemeanors" she may have witnessed.

Cold cases are not solved on messageboards. I can only offer my opinion, as this is a messageboard where people's comments are just that - their opinions.

Lets hope the 22nd year of the women's disappearance is the year there is a credible break in this case! I really do believe it will be solved!

 

[TexasT]

Probably the only reasons that Clay was looking at 5 yrs (serving 1) and not a plea deal as well was: A) of the 2 boys who entered the mausoleum he was the one who lite the skull on fire; B) he fled to CA (even if to visit a girlfriend, it doesn't look good); C) he couldn't afford an attorney like Recla & Riedel could, and part of their plea deals was to testify against him if necessary; and D) 5 yrs falls into the sentencing guidelines for this crime. It doesn't matter what you think you know about his so-called deviant behavior. And I would challenge you to name one case where a police officer has been killed by someone facing a misdemeanor charge.http://www.odmp.org/. I'll let you do your own research.

Only a complete idiot So now all criminals are smart ? would throw away their complete life to keep from serving 12 months over a charge of vandalism they committed while on hallucinogenic drugs less chance of committing an offense while on drugs ?by abducting, sexually assaulting, murdering 3 women and disposing of their remains a few months later. And if you assume for the moment that it is not likely that one individual would be capable of pulling such a crime off by themselves, only a bigger fool would throw away a sentence of probation to help their best friend!that's why crimes have accomplices

If you have any circumstantial evidence to the contrary please bring it!

Sounds like you have it all figured out and should call the Authorities immediately.


I think the point is until there is an indictment, arrest , conviction and the ladies are located, everything is on the table. And it would be arrogant to blindly ignore plausible suspects. The offender could very well be a transient that you've never heard of. If the authorities don't have enough probable cause for an arrest by now , what does that tell you ?

Regards,
TT

 

[Hurricane]

Sounds like you have it all figured out and should call the Authorities immediately.


I think the point is until there is an indictment, arrest , conviction and the ladies are located, everything is on the table. And it would be arrogant to blindly ignore plausible suspects. The offender could very well be a transient that you've never heard of. If the authorities don't have enough probable cause for an arrest by now , what does that tell you ?

Regards,
TT

From your linked website (www.odmp.org) I looked at 2014 YTD officers killed by gunshot to see if your claim of misdemeanor perps killing officers could be substantiated. Of 8 deaths YTD of LE officers in the US & Puerto Rico I found one possible misdemeanor perp killing an officer by gun shot (marked **, too little information to know if perp was a past felon or not) and 7 LE officers killed by felons or perps in the commission of a felonious crime. So I'm not sure your claim that perps regularly kill police over misdemeanor crimes is substantiated:

Robert German 032214 shot & killed while investigating a suspicious male & female, who then died from self inflicted gunshot wounds.

Ricky Del Fiorentino 031924 shot & killed while searching for a suspect wanted for abducting two people earlier in the day.

Jason Crisp 031214 shot & killed while chasing a felon who had murdered his own parents.

Joaquín Correa-Ortega 031014 shot & killed while making an undercover firearms purchase.

John Hobbs 030314 shot & killed while serving a felony warrant on an ex convict recently released from prison.

**Jonathan Scott Pine 021114 shot & killed while responding to car break-ins in a gated community. Suspect shot & killed himself after a foot chase. Leads me to believe he was probably a felon.

Cory Wride 013014 shot & killed during felony vehicle pursuit.

Carlos Rivera-Vega 012114 shot & killed during a felony drug investigation in a public housing project.

 

[Hurricane]

If the authorities don't have enough probable cause for an arrest by now , what does that tell you ?

Regards,
TT

It tells me that they just lack a few pieces of evidence, and I really mean that.

It doesn't tell me to throw the baby out with the bath water!

 

[fullmoon]

Recla and associates had a motive , but they didn't seem bright enough from the stunts they previously pulled to commit this without any evidence, and deceive investigators.

I agree. I think after all these years, someone would have talked by now. I always thought it was just one person responsible for the abduction. That's why it's been so hard to crack.

Regarding Mike and Janelle, I have often thought about their actions that day. I have to keep reminding myself Janelle was just 18. At that age, you don't think anything bad can happen to you. She probably didn't think there was anything wrong until much later. Unfortunately, too many people, as you noted, innocently compromised the crime scene by walking through the house. But if the authorities believe the crime was a sexual assault, then they must have DNA indicating sexual assault, so maybe the crime scene was not too badly compromised.