The Verdict - Do you agree or disagree? #3

[feddup]

I agree. Dr Vass is an excellent scientist.I don't believe he flew down to Florida to jerk peoples chains.He testified to what he believed in. MOO.

Im glad someone agrees I thought he was impressive.
When he said the chloroform levels were "off the charts" or something to that effect, I listened! he would not make that up.

 

[MissJames]

I really believe we need Professional jurors for cases like this that are so serious. I feel ALOT of devious games were played. Such as JB throwing it out there with the GA molesting her thing right away although he had no way to back it up. If I were GA or his wife I would be LIVID.
Im sure theyre convinced that JB really forced their little daughter into this story but I think Casey, since we know she lies told him this. Why he didnt come up with a plan to back it up as fact is beyond me. That, plus he didnt even seem to have to.

I thik they looked forward to dessert lady, the movies, the restuant outtings and getting home And its sad because this was about a little girl who died a horrible death IMO.
I dont' believe it was an accidental drowning. I have never heard of a parent covering up an accidental drowning.
If it were,the most she would've been charged with was child neglect?
Thereis something very suspicious about Caylee's death.

I have a feeling there could also be issues with professional jurors,but that's for another thread.

I still feel like we're waiting for the completion of THIS case. JB ignored court orders,this probation snafu and some type of inquiry or investigation into the jury dynamics. We need to hear "the rest of the story".

 

[MissJames]

Im glad someone agrees I thought he was impressive.
When he said the chloroform levels were "off the charts" or something to that effect, I listened! he would not make that up.

Impressive and interesting! One of life's good guys.

 

[RANCH]

Im glad someone agrees I thought he was impressive.
When he said the chloroform levels were "off the charts" or something to that effect, I listened! he would not make that up.

I'm not a big chloroform as a murder weapon person, but your right,something was wrong with the detection of chloroform in the trunk of her car.I would buy the cleaning product scenario, if there were byproducts of those products found.There wasn't.How did it get there.

 

[feddup]

With all due respect no doctors were presented as experts to say KC was suffering from trauma. Only the woman who is a grief counselor and she basically said any reaction could be a sign of grief. Jurors can't deliberate on something that was not presented as evidence. The lack of a doctor giving testimony rules out the trauma. Jury instructions were quite clear they can't consider it unless it is presented in court testimony. The only evidence the jury heard was her own lies from her own mouth that the State presented. Even the grief counselor said she had not talked with KC. jmo

I know that people grieve in different ways but I really didn't believe much of what she said. I did not think she was impressive. I thought they were grasping at straws with her. IMO and my :twocents:
I did not see any signs of grieving in casey A. No.....just seeming to want to get on with a whole new, FREE club lifestyle with TL.
You cant cover that up, it was all out there in pics. And......even the other girl calling her from jail sounded more worried about Caylees whereabouts. That just was not normal.
Shesure must be a rock hard, cold person
If she really didn't want her she shouldve gave her up for adoption. She would be leading the "free" life right now without people judging her.

 

[Sustained]

A baseball team can have a great game, make one error, and lose. Why can't a PT have a great game, make a couple mistakes and lose?

Interesting that you've used baseball ... I prefer to use a figure skating competition as my analogy. For argument's sake, we have an experienced Russian skater as the favorite and an relative American novice as the only real competition. We've gone through the compulsories and the short program and the Russian skater has a huge lead. Coming into the long program, the regular judges don't show up and 12 random members of the crowd are assigned to do the judging. No one seems to care who these 12 judges are as they were selected at random.

On we go and the American novice has a beautiful costume, but bumbles through the long program falling numerous times and not completing the mandatory jumps and sitspins required in the competition. However, the American skater is a crowd favorite with her flashy costume, catchy music, and white teeth as she constantly smiles for the camera. The American also skates over to each of the judges and gives them a single red rose after her performance.

The Russian skater, dressed in a somber gray outfit, skates flawlessly and is mechanically brilliant, hitting numerous triple axels and toe loops. But the Russian skater refuses to acknowledge the judges, waves quickly to the crowd, and exits the ice.

Now the newly appointed judges must decide who wins the competition and gets the gold medal. The judges are given a copy of the figure skating competition rules, but claim most of the rules don't apply here and that they didn't understand them. A couple of judges are taken with the American skater's beauty and charm and decide to award her nearly perfect scores despite her on ice performance. The rest of the jurors thought the Russian skater performed flawlessly, but they didn't like her demeanor. One of them actually thought the Russian skater snarled at her.

Well, the newly appointed head judge tallies the scores and finds that the American has won the competition by a decisive margin despite the technical proficiency of the Russian. The head judge then asks "Are we good with these scores ... does anyone want to rethink their calculation ?" One of the judges speaks out and says "You know ... I really don't understand figure skating and I feel sorry for the Russian skater, but I find it hard to believe that the American didn't do her best ... and besides ... I've got a plane to catch !"

 

[Aedrys]

But my understanding is that the it was only stuck on one side in the hair

Sorry I didn't answer this earlier. It was stuck to both sides of her head in her hair. The initial confusion was whether it circled her entire head or not, and from what was said in court, it didn't encircle the entirety of her head, just the hair on the sides of her head. So yes, it was on both sides, not just one side. It wouldn't have been there if it was only stuck to one side, or at at least the mandible wouldn't be in place with it only one side. Also, they cut the hair away from it, and I think in some pictures it was only shown on one side, but that wasn't the full hair mat that they cut away in the first place (someone correct me if I'm wrong here).

 

[logicalgirl]

Interesting that you've used baseball ... I prefer to use a figure skating competition as my analogy. For argument's sake, we have an experienced Russian skater as the favorite and an relative American novice as the only real competition. We've gone through the compulsories and the short program and the Russian skater has a huge lead. Coming into the long program, the regular judges don't show up and 12 random members of the crowd are assigned to do the judging. No one seems to care who these 12 judges are as they were selected at random.

On we go and the American novice has a beautiful costume, but bumbles through the long program falling numerous times and not completing the mandatory jumps and sitspins required in the competition. However, the American skater is a crowd favorite with her flashy costume, catchy music, and white teeth as she constantly smiles for the camera. The American also skates over to each of the judges and gives them a single red rose after her performance.

The Russian skater, dressed in a somber gray outfit, skates flawlessly and is mechanically brilliant, hitting numerous triple axels and toe loops. But the Russian skater refuses to acknowledge the judges, waves quickly to the crowd, and exits the ice.

Now the newly appointed judges must decide who wins the competition and gets the gold medal. The judges are given a copy of the figure skating competition rules, but claim most of the rules don't apply here and that they didn't understand them. A couple of judges are taken with the American skater's beauty and charm and decide to award her nearly perfect scores despite her on ice performance. The rest of the jurors thought the Russian skater performed flawlessly, but they didn't like her demeanor. One of them actually thought the Russian skater snarled at her.

Well, the newly appointed head judge tallies the scores and finds that the American has won the competition by a decisive margin despite the technical proficiency of the Russian. The head judge then asks "Are we good with these scores ... does anyone want to rethink their calculation ?" One of the judges speaks out and says "You know ... I really don't understand figure skating and I feel sorry for the Russian skater, but I find it hard to believe that the American didn't do her best ... and besides ... I've got a plane to catch !"

Perfect analogy - :tyou: .............. :yourock:

 

[logicalgirl]

BBM: Yes If LE had actually searched the closest first available wooded area to the Anthony home in July. If LE had actually searched the remain site when RK called the findings in in August. If LE had [/B]thoroughly investigated the one person who gave statement that Caylee left[/B] with Casey by at least pulling his phone records AND pings. If LE had thoroughly investigated the one person to FIND the remains by at least pulling his phone records AND pings. Then --- none of us would be here debating the questions we still have no definative answers to. All MOO.

LOL - :floorlaugh: - They did! FKC 's statement was that she left the house with Caylee and dropped her off on the steps of Zenaida's apartment complex sometime between 9am and 1pm. And since this person was her sole guardian - the LE definitely did the right thing. After all, what mother would like about where her child is? Oh yes, I forgot - FKC would - and did.....then came up with a drowning scenario at the last minute via her defense attorney. Wasn't even brave enough to get up on the stand...

 

[RR0004]

LOL - :floorlaugh: - They did! FKC 's statement was that she left the house with Caylee and dropped her off on the steps of Zenaida's apartment complex sometime between 9am and 1pm. And since this person was her sole guardian - the LE definitely did the right thing. After all, what mother would like about where her child is? Oh yes, I forgot - FKC would - and did.....then came up with a drowning scenario at the last minute via her defense attorney. Wasn't even brave enough to get up on the stand...

I still don't get that whole time thing...nor the change in dates. How do you not know when your child died...accident or no accident? And I don't care if it was Cindy's mistake or not...IMPO...Casey wanted to steer the direction of the investigation as far away from her as possible. And who speaks of their child's abduction without a single tear? Oops...that was after she said it was a "domestic" issue. And the jury thought this was normal behavior for someone who knows her child is dead?

 

[grandmaj]

BBM: Yes If LE had actually searched the closest first available wooded area to the Anthony home in July. If LE had actually searched the remain site when RK called the findings in in August. If LE had thoroughly investigated the one person who gave statement that Caylee left with Casey by at least pulling his phone records AND pings. If LE had thoroughly investigated the one person to FIND the remains by at least pulling his phone records AND pings. Then --- none of us would be here debating the questions we still have no definative answers to. All MOO.

What reason would LE have had to search the wooded area in July? Casey told them that Caylee was with Zanny the Nanny and they were looking for a kidnapper for the next weeks. Big question... Why did she tell LE that?

Yes if that Law Enforcement officer in August had done his job he might have found Caylee. But given the conditions maybe not.

LE did review the phone records of Lee, George, Cindy and Casey. Det. Melich testified to it. Baez kept asking about other phones. Phones not registered to George or Cindy. The reason? Because the defense attorney it is alleged gave them the phones to use so they could communicate in private with HIM. The defense attorney for their daughter.

The definitive answers were made as evidence at court. It was ignored. Casey Anthony through her own words in written police statements told law enforcement that she herself dropped Caylee off with the Nanny. She didn't do that once, or twice. No she did that 3 times over a period of 12 hours. And told LE she was doing her own investigation for 31 days. Well except that Tony stated that on June 17 Casey and he spent the entire day in his bed.

The last person to see Caylee Anthony the evidence proved was not George Anthony but Casey Anthony. There was absolutely no testimony that anyone but Casey was the last person to see Caylee.

Again, facts vs. fiction or Baez fantasy stories. While people have a right to believe what they want, in a court of law fact is evidence. The rest is defense strategy to free their client. It is not fact or evidence.

 

[pcrum12]

Sorry I didn't answer this earlier. It was stuck to both sides of her head in her hair. The initial confusion was whether it circled her entire head or not, and from what was said in court, it didn't encircle the entirety of her head, just the hair on the sides of her head. So yes, it was on both sides, not just one side. It wouldn't have been there if it was only stuck to one side, or at at least the mandible wouldn't be in place with it only one side. Also, they cut the hair away from it, and I think in some pictures it was only shown on one side, but that wasn't the full hair mat that they cut away in the first place (someone correct me if I'm wrong here).

I do not find anywhere in any doc or trial testimony that the tape was stuck to BOTH sides in the hair. Can you link?

 

[pcrum12]

LOL - :floorlaugh: - They did! FKC 's statement was that she left the house with Caylee and dropped her off on the steps of Zenaida's apartment complex sometime between 9am and 1pm. And since this person was her sole guardian - the LE definitely did the right thing. After all, what mother would like about where her child is? Oh yes, I forgot - FKC would - and did.....then came up with a drowning scenario at the last minute via her defense attorney. Wasn't even brave enough to get up on the stand...

They did What?

 

[pcrum12]

I still don't get that whole time thing...nor the change in dates. How do you not know when your child died...accident or no accident? And I don't care if it was Cindy's mistake or not...IMPO...Casey wanted to steer the direction of the investigation as far away from her as possible. And who speaks of their child's abduction without a single tear? Oops...that was after she said it was a "domestic" issue. And the jury thought this was normal behavior for someone who knows her child is dead?

BBM: This gets me too.

 

[thedeviledadvocate]

Interesting that you've used baseball ... I prefer to use a figure skating competition as my analogy. For argument's sake, we have an experienced Russian skater as the favorite and an relative American novice as the only real competition. We've gone through the compulsories and the short program and the Russian skater has a huge lead. Coming into the long program, the regular judges don't show up and 12 random members of the crowd are assigned to do the judging. No one seems to care who these 12 judges are as they were selected at random.

On we go and the American novice has a beautiful costume, but bumbles through the long program falling numerous times and not completing the mandatory jumps and sitspins required in the competition. However, the American skater is a crowd favorite with her flashy costume, catchy music, and white teeth as she constantly smiles for the camera. The American also skates over to each of the judges and gives them a single red rose after her performance.

The Russian skater, dressed in a somber gray outfit, skates flawlessly and is mechanically brilliant, hitting numerous triple axels and toe loops. But the Russian skater refuses to acknowledge the judges, waves quickly to the crowd, and exits the ice.

Now the newly appointed judges must decide who wins the competition and gets the gold medal. The judges are given a copy of the figure skating competition rules, but claim most of the rules don't apply here and that they didn't understand them. A couple of judges are taken with the American skater's beauty and charm and decide to award her nearly perfect scores despite her on ice performance. The rest of the jurors thought the Russian skater performed flawlessly, but they didn't like her demeanor. One of them actually thought the Russian skater snarled at her.

Well, the newly appointed head judge tallies the scores and finds that the American has won the competition by a decisive margin despite the technical proficiency of the Russian. The head judge then asks "Are we good with these scores ... does anyone want to rethink their calculation ?" One of the judges speaks out and says "You know ... I really don't understand figure skating and I feel sorry for the Russian skater, but I find it hard to believe that the American didn't do her best ... and besides ... I've got a plane to catch !"

Pretty good analogy.

I am assuming that the prosecution is the technically proficient russian, so this skater would be LDB, correct?

I'm having a hard time picturing AL or AF on skates though.

As always, my entire post is my opinion only.

 

[mimmy03]

I still don't get that whole time thing...nor the change in dates. How do you not know when your child died...accident or no accident? And I don't care if it was Cindy's mistake or not...IMPO...Casey wanted to steer the direction of the investigation as far away from her as possible. And who speaks of their child's abduction without a single tear? Oops...that was after she said it was a "domestic" issue. And the jury thought this was normal behavior for someone who knows her child is dead?

That's a very good point (forgetting the date your daughter actually died). I not only remember the day my daughters were born, but I know the time. These are things mother never forget. So how a mother would forget when her daughter died is beyond me.

 

[Aedrys]

I do not find anywhere in any doc or trial testimony that the tape was stuck to BOTH sides in the hair. Can you link?

I don't have a link, sorry. But I do remember during the trial that picture of Caylee's skull as it was found was described as looking like an egg in a nest, something like that. I believe it was someone here, or maybe a TH that was there said it in a tweet or something. We didn't really get to see those pictures the jury did. If the hair was pooled around the skull like a nest, that means the tape had to be on both sides stuck to it. Otherwise, it wouldn't pool around the skull like a nest.

Anyone have links or could help me here? I know I'm not crazy. The tape was on both sides of the head in the hair, right? I do think there is an extensive duct tape thread on the Caylee Forum here. Just search for duct tape.

 

[PeteyGirl]

What reason would LE have had to search the wooded area in July? Casey told them that Caylee was with Zanny the Nanny and they were looking for a kidnapper for the next weeks. Big question... Why did she tell LE that?

Yes if that Law Enforcement officer in August had done his job he might have found Caylee. But given the conditions maybe not.

LE did review the phone records of Lee, George, Cindy and Casey. Det. Melich testified to it. Baez kept asking about other phones. Phones not registered to George or Cindy. The reason? Because the defense attorney it is alleged gave them the phones to use so they could communicate in private with HIM. The defense attorney for their daughter.

The definitive answers were made as evidence at court. It was ignored. Casey Anthony through her own words in written police statements told law enforcement that she herself dropped Caylee off with the Nanny. She didn't do that once, or twice. No she did that 3 times over a period of 12 hours. And told LE she was doing her own investigation for 31 days. Well except that Tony stated that on June 17 Casey and he spent the entire day in his bed.

The last person to see Caylee Anthony the evidence proved was not George Anthony but Casey Anthony. There was absolutely no testimony that anyone but Casey was the last person to see Caylee.

Again, facts vs. fiction or Baez fantasy stories. While people have a right to believe what they want, in a court of law fact is evidence. The rest is defense strategy to free their client. It is not fact or evidence.

i read this post last night and was too tired after work to respond, but just reading it made me sigh with relief!

It says exactly what I think. I couldn't put it into words nearly as well.

This was an American justice system TRIAL. The state's case was based entirely upon evidence, primarily circumstantial. Circumstantial evidence is evidence, not speculation. They got it honed down, eliminated all other players but Casey Anthony. Facts and evidence were presented. Some evidence was more compelling than others.

What I see being presented by pro-verdict folks is a basic distrust of the quality of the evidence. A distrust deep enough to consider it rendered meaningless, and equal to "speculation". That is just not the way things work. That is just not possible, unless the state was a bunch of clowns picking thier shnozzles for the last three years. If the state players were that incompetent, they would not have the positions they do. They are proven credible (enough) merely because they have the positions they do have.

Speculations that occur around the evidence are what is "meaningless" in comparison to the evidence. Folks are perfectly within their rights to speculate, but most of us here can't take the speculation against the evidence seriously. I know I can't.

And I mean speculation about George's involvement, about Casey having PTSD from sex abuse and therefore covering up a tragic accident to make it look like a homicide (no shrink who evaluated her stated she had any form of PTSD).

I'll speak for myself . . . my opinion is very limited, limited by the evidence developed by the prosecution. My trust and belief in the state's case could possibly be "opinion". My opinion, based upon the evidence, favors an act of negligence, rather than murder. So I don't actually buy EVERYTHING the state presented.

But going outside the case evidence is fantasy fiction, and hardly arguable because it's importance is negligible in comparison to the facts.

 

[gladiatorqueen]

What I see being presented by pro-verdict folks is a basic distrust of the quality of the evidence. A distrust deep enough to consider it rendered meaningless, and equal to "speculation". That is just not the way things work. That is just not possible, unless the state was a bunch of clowns picking thier shnozzles for the last three years. If the state players were that incompetent, they would not have the positions they do. They are proven credible (enough) merely because they have the positions they do have.

So, are you suggesting here that if the jury had doubts about the validity of the evidence (which it seems they very much did have) then they should have just gone ahead with a guilty verdict anyway despite those doubts? That seems to go against what a jury is expected to do, IMO.

 

[Aedrys]

So, are you suggesting here that if the jury had doubts about the validity of the evidence (which it seems they very much did have) then they should have just gone ahead with a guilty verdict anyway despite those doubts? That seems to go against what a jury is expected to do, IMO.

They way I see it, there is a deep distrust of the American Judicial system, especially against SA's and LE. The jury didn't get to see three years worth of the DT fumbling and bumbling. They only saw the trial, and I think the DT did such a bad job that the jury had sympathy for them, and blamed the SA for being big bullies to the DT when that wasn't it at all. It's like in sports when a team wins by an enormous margin - there is usually upset and sympathy for the team that lost because why would the winning team need to win by such a large margin? I also think there is a cynicism that if a defense doesn't do well, then it has to be fault of the state somehow. I see a lot of that even on this forum. Or even worse, the defense is praised just because they won and the perception is that the defense beat the big bad state that bullied them and tried to prevent them from doing a good job, which is not the reality of this case at all. It's the underdog winning despite all odds, even if it's, in this case, a despicable underdog.

Either way, the truth of the matter that the jury ignored is that the defense was completely inept and did not do their job, and the state and HHJP had to put up with it and basically instruct the defense on how to do their job the whole way through. They shouldn't have had any sympathy or liking for the defense. Instead, they should have wondered why this defendant, if innocent, didn't have a more competent defense. Instead, the state turned every defense witness into a state witness, even humiliated some of those expert witnesses (and rightly so, but I think it gave the jury the impression of the state being bullies and not the experts being wrong or not given the info they were supposed to be given by the defense), and the defense didn't offer one iota of evidence or proof to back up their outrageous story that Baez told in opening statements. It was all inference and innuendo that the defense put out and the jury bought, and furthermore, the jury made this trial more of a popularity contest than seriously considering evidence and making a good verdict.

And a lot of that comes from a deep distrust of the judicial system and the state. Also, there are too many TV shows that make bad defense lawyers look good, and people think that's how a courtroom is and that's how defense lawyers are. Likable but bad is more accepted than hard work and earned credibility these days when it comes to the judicial system. The defense lawyers are portrayed as the good guys, and the judge and the state are the big bad guys. People don't realize that television shows are fiction and that's not how it works in the real judicial system. People are buying television show defense lawyers as real defense lawyers instead and along with a deep distrust of the judicial system, it's causing verdicts like the one in this case. Sad, but true.