The Verdict - Do you agree or disagree? #3

[kelian36]

The "grief counselor" who was a last-ditch effort by the DT to excuse FCA's behavior may have been brought in for another reason. The subject of family pets was introduced and it was odd that some trial time was used by JB asking CA, GA and LA how their pets were disposed of and who had the burial job. There was emphasis placed on plastic bags and tape. But somehow this also pointed to GA as his job was to dig the graves....so in the jury's already dislike of GA, he buried dead things. Somehow the fact that FCA could have copied the pet idea was never brought into play. This jury was not focused on finding if FCA harmed or intentionally killed Caylee Marie. This jury had their boogey man pointed out to them, identified and dirtied over and over again by the DT.
This jury didn't waste their time searching for the truth. They just knew, beyond a reasonable doubt, by the time they went into deliberations, that FCA never harmed Caylee Marie. They never asked themselves how Caylee Marie got the duct tape sealing her nose and mouth, got into plastic bags which were knotted, got into a laundry bag, and then got thrown into the swamp. The pictures of the skull, the bones of little Caylee Marie must have been horrendous. Perhaps too horrendous to think about. Much easier to think about sexual assualt and FCA as the victim.

Caligram,
EXCELLENT POST
bbm-How sad is it that they never searched for the truth?

 

[kelian36]

From the hearing thread.......

I know this is OT, but I still cannot believe this verdict. It has been three weeks and the shock has worn, but once in a while I will allow myself to think about the verdict and it is JUST BEYOND SHOCKING.

One wasn't shocked with John Gotti - we knew what was going on and oh ok, he got off again ...one of these days.

But this - this was an absolute kick in the stomach to pretty much everyone who watched. I myself had to sit down because I could not believe my ears. I just could not believe it.

Solace,
You worded perfectly the way that I feel too.
This was a huge kick in the stomach.

 

[Aedrys]

How good or bad the DT did was irrelevant to my post, which is why I didn't talk about the DT's mistakes.

Yes, I remember the "cut the cheese" remark, and I feel it was just as unprofessional as JA's comment about "pigs in a blanket".

I can criticize the DT, just as well as anyone. Over the past 3 years, they were often unprepared. They often filed motions they knew were going to be denied, but filed them anyway. Some of these are just SOP and necessary, but when AL was part of the team, the motions were numerous. JB made many mistakes during the trial. He missed numerous opportunities to impeach the states expert witnesses. He was too polite to witnesses and the jury (if there is such a thing as being too polite). CM was rude while questioning at least on one occasion. DS seemed too timid.

The PT outlawyered the DT at almost every turn, for 3 years.

JB is very inexperienced, and his mistakes could have lost the trial.

When JB would get close to a good moment for the defense, he would get overexcited, and blow it. He did this several times.

JA and LDB are better lawyers than JB, and they called him on almost all his mistakes, which is one reason there were sooooo many objections, sustained.
If JB was as good of a lawyer as JA or LDB or even CM or DS, I think the deliberation time would have been cut in half.

IF Caylee had been murdered, it would have made no difference whether it was via the duct tape or via the chloroform or both. The problem with JA saying "we can only hope", means the state was speculating, and he was admitting they didn't know, so maybe the chloroform didn't kill her, but there goes premeditation, maybe it was the tape that suffocated her, or maybe she wasn't killed at all and died accidently. They did not know what happened, and if the state doesn't know what happened, then how can the jury convict someone on maybe's?

As always, my entire post is my opinion only.

BBM. How many freaking maybe's did the defense offer? EVERYTHING was a maybe! So Baez saying we'll never know how the body of Caylee was stolen by Kronk and put in the swamp is way more believable? Baez not even knowing the time of day when Caylee supposedly drowned is more believable? The defense not offering one iota of evidence to support the story they told while the prosecution offered actual evidence in support of what they said is more believable? There was zero evidence of molestation, drowning, George's involvement, and Kronk's involvement, plus ZERO evidence to say that anything the prosecution said was wrong (and I mean proof wise - all their defense was innuendo and inference, nothing to actually prove the prosecution wrong). The prosecution can't be called on for saying "we can only hope" (and I don't even remember then saying that, but I could have missed it) when the defense did so much worse in their OS and during the trial. Lord, I think that may be the only thing the prosecution said that couldn't be proven or wasn't backed up in some kind of way. Can't say the same at all for the defense. Logic fails on this part of the argument, but I agreed with what else was said in this post. All IMO.

 

[NotRocketSighence]

Duct tape does not reasonably belong anywhere in an accident theory and we know it came from her home and we know George and Cindy did not kill her so, IMO yes she did it beyond and to the exclusion of every reasonable doubt.

We don't know she was killed, we don't know who did what.

I have a hard time believing that this duct tape was placed over her face yet it survived everything it did, the hurricane, the water, the bones being gnawed on by animals, the bones being scattered around, the duct tape supposedly not being attached to anything but the hair, ie no facial tissue (it was decomposed), Roy Kronk supposedly poking the skull with a stick and lifting it into the air or whatever physical poking around he did and yet we are to believe the skull, the tape, the hair all stayed perfectly in place enough to deduct it was the cause of death. That's too many leaps for me to conclusively make on that evidence alone.

I can theorize a reason or two why an accident is made to look like a crime. I can make enough possible leaps to make things that give me pause and reasonable doubt to not believe absolutely it was Casey.

I simply don't know. None of us do. I just don't jump to the automatic guilty conclusion others do based on what I saw in the trail.

 

[Aedrys]

We don't know she was killed, we don't know who did what.

I have a hard time believing that this duct tape was placed over her face yet it survived everything it did, the hurricane, the water, the bones being gnawed on by animals, the bones being scattered around, the duct tape supposedly not being attached to anything but the hair, ie no facial tissue (it was decomposed), Roy Kronk supposedly poking the skull with a stick and lifting it into the air or whatever physical poking around he did and yet we are to believe the skull, the tape, the hair all stayed perfectly in place enough to deduct it was the cause of death. That's too many leaps for me to conclusively make on that evidence alone.

I can theorize a reason or two why an accident is made to look like a crime. I can make enough possible leaps to make things that give me pause and reasonable doubt to not believe absolutely it was Casey.

I can put my clothes through wet conditions and a dryer and guess what, I will still find hair stuck in bra straps and the like. And getting hair out of things is a pain in the butt. Hair is something that survives regardless of cirumstances (I guess unless it's burned). There was a whole hair mat that survived all of those circumstances. Why is it so hard to believe that if that hair mat survived, the tape stuck to it wouldn't be there? Hair is hardy and easily gets tangled into anything. I know because I have a darn lot of it on my head and it falls out and gets stuck in clothes and other things. It's annoying. It doesn't surprise me that there was enough hair their to keep the tape on the skull after the tissue decomposed.

Since the duct tape was there, this child wasn't drowned, she was murdered. No one covers up a drowning by duct taping a child's face and then throwing that child into swamp in a bag.

 

[gxm]

I don't pick and choose what to believe out of Casey's mouth to support my theories. I prefer to look at the evidence. For me, there was not enough to believe Caylee was murdered, much less by Casey or that Casey disposed of her body.

The defendant's words and deeds aren't evidence? That a rather boldly presumptuous path to take toward a verdict, IMO.

ETA: Every day that I return to this thread, I find yet more comments to convince me that the pro-verdict supporters entered the trial phase with both a bias and an agenda.

 

[coco puff]

I don't pick and choose what to believe out of Casey's mouth to support my theories. I prefer to look at the evidence. For me, there was not enough to believe Caylee was murdered, much less by Casey or that Casey disposed of her body.

Even though the defendant did not, has not and will not explain the "accident"..? Why do you think she is not talking? IMO there is no innocent way to explain the was Caylee was found. What really happened is way worse then having the world convinced the she is responsible for her child's death but only speculate how it happened.

Dead baby hidden in swamp with duct tape equals murder IMO

 

[NotRocketSighence]

I can put my clothes through wet conditions and a dryer and guess what, I will still find hair stuck in bra straps and the like. And getting hair out of things is a pain in the butt. Hair is something that survives regardless of cirumstances (I guess unless it's burned). There was a whole hair mat that survived all of those circumstances. Why is it so hard to believe that if that hair mat survived, the tape stuck to it wouldn't be there? Hair is hardy and easily gets tangled into anything. I know because I have a darn lot of it on my head and it falls out and gets stuck in clothes and other things. It's annoying. It doesn't surprise me that there was enough hair their to keep the tape on the skull after the tissue decomposed.

Since the duct tape was there, this child wasn't drowned, she was murdered. No one covers up a drowning by duct taping a child's face and then throwing that child into swamp in a bag.

Drowning is one theory of cause of death given the medical examiner could not find one. There are many possible causes of death, both deliberate and accidental. We simply don't know and most likely never will. I try not to make absolutely judgements of what all people do or don't do because where people are concerned, nothing much is absolute and many things beyond what you think are possible.

 

[coco puff]

Again, if it was an accident, we all would know what happened. There would be no need to guess if it was all perfectly innocent. But it is NOT so we will never know.

 

[Caligram]

It is my understanding that RK clarified his first statement regarding the skull. He said that the garbage bag which he lifted up had been over the skull ~ the skull was on the ground, and he poked it to get a clearer look. I believe that the skull was partially embedded in the soil, where it had lain for months. The plant growth which had penetrated the bones may have kept the skull where it was found. The duct tape may have been entertwined with the hair as there was nothing left of the face. Oh, heaven help me...this is so difficult to imagine and too horrific to keep going round and round about that damn tape. Hair is like thread, and probably just enough of it had swirled around the fibers of the tape to keep it there. Three strips of duct tape, covering the face of Caylee Marie, covering her tiny nose and mouth and when those body parts decomposed or whatever, that duct tape refused to let go. The duct tape, which the DT tried every which way to discredit, attacking every bit of expert testimony with inexpert witnesses with questionable qualifications. Remember that old doc, way past his prime, unconvincingly trying to explain that he thought somebody took the skull and taped the mandible in place. Short of Caylee Marie flying down from heaven to testify in the courtroom that "mommy did it", I think there is sufficient evidence to point that out.

 

[Aedrys]

Drowning is one theory of cause of death given the medical examiner could not find one. There are many possible causes of death, both deliberate and accidental. We simply don't know and most likely never will. I try not to make absolutely judgements of what all people do or don't do because where people are concerned, nothing much is absolute and many things beyond what you think are possible.

And why was the Medical Examiner unable to identify a cause of death? Because Casey lied about what happened to Caylee and where she was. Caylee lay in that swamp long enough to become skeletal. Casey lied and covered up what happened. Why would she do that if were an accident? The queen of me, me, me turned down an opportunity to milk being a grieving mother of a drowned child for all it's worth? I can't believe the jury ignored the selfishness of Casey. The videos of her screaming at her parents and treating them like crap. The jail phone call where all she wanted was Tony's number and got upset that all anyone else wanted was Caylee back. The fact that she threw her family under the bus to save herself. I've never seen anyone completely destroy their family like this. Most have family quietly sitting in the gallery and supporting them, and don't blame the family like Casey did for what happened. Why would Caylee have been worth more to Casey or be treated any differently than Casey treated her own family? We are supposed to believe friends who barely knew Casey as a mother that she was a good mom? How is she a good mom with no job, no money, stealing from friends, and worst of all, killing her own child? Or if her child did drown, not caring AT ALL about said child after death? No good mother treats their dead child that way. No good mother just forgets their beloved child and just moves on like that child never existed. I can't believe that Casey's behavior in court, all the fake tears and thinking pose nonsense, getting upset when she wasn't supposed to be and not getting upset when she should be, along with the videos, jail phone calls, and attitude after Caylee's death would lead someone to believe that she gave one iota of carp about Caylee and simply covered up a drowning. No normal person does what Casey does, and she doesn't get a pass for not being normal and her family not being normal. There has to be a standard. We can't let people off because they're not normal and somehow that's okay. That's NOT okay, and the jury completely failed in that aspect among many in this trial in their decision to acquit her.

 

[NotRocketSighence]

Even though the defendant did not, has not and will not explain the "accident"..? Why do you think she is not talking? IMO there is no innocent way to explain the was Caylee was found. What really happened is way worse then having the world convinced the she is responsible for her child's death but only speculate how it happened.

Dead baby hidden in swamp with duct tape equals murder IMO

Nothing about Casey much comes under the wide umbrella of the varying lengths of normal. People seem to expect her to act or react as they would or as they see people in their day to day lives act and react. Not "everyone" acts or reacts as you would think. It doesn't automatically mean they are guilty of something.

 

[LCoastMom]

Sounds perfectly reasonable to me. Because there is no way the mother of that child put that tape on Caylees face. Ya right.

Unbelievable to me is the people who still choose to believe this. The River De-nial runs deep.

No one in their right mind would duct tape a child who died from an accident. CFCA may not be "right" in the head but she was found to be sane and her actions certainly speak to her own guilt (lies, parties, lies, sex, lies, tattoo, did I mention lies?).

The three individual pieces of tape found adhered to Caylee's hair did not get there on it's own, Caylee didn't duct tape herself, the tape did not randomly float there and just happen to keep the mandible in place and no one came along 6 months later, found these things scattered in the swamp and decided to stage a crime scene.

Neither GA or CA would have a reason to cover an accidental death, LA wasn't around on 6/16 (Kronk wasn't either). The "nanny" doesn't exist. CFCA's friends were investigated and cleared by LE. By process of elimination, that leaves CFCA. Maybe 'mom' was right, maybe CFCA is a terrible mother or maybe she's just a spiteful beotch.

300+ pieces of evidence say that CFCA killed precious Caylee, wrapped her face in duct tape (during or immediately after the murder), triple bagged her and dumped her in the trashy lot at the end of the block. Too bad the Pinella's 12 had more important things to do than take their job seriously and come up with a just verdict or to even TRY! I'll never understand what they did (or more importantly didn't do) during deliberations, talk about a huge waste!

 

[pcrum12]

Have you looked at the autopsy report done by Dr G. ?

http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2009/images/06/19/caylee.anthony.autopsy.pdf

Of course I have read and researched the autopsy. No where in that autopsy can I find that it states that the tape was on both side. If I have missed this please do point me to what I have missed.

 

[coco puff]

Nothing about Casey much comes under the wide umbrella of the varying lengths of normal. People seem to expect her to act or react as they would or as they see people in their day to day lives act and react. Not "everyone" acts or reacts as you would think. It doesn't automatically mean they are guilty of something.

If her child is found dead in a swamp stuffed in bags with duct tape where her face used to be and she lied about it to police and family about the childs wherabouts . . .IMO pretty automatic in my mind.

 

[LCoastMom]

Nothing about Casey much comes under the wide umbrella of the varying lengths of normal. People seem to expect her to act or react as they would or as they see people in their day to day lives act and react. Not "everyone" acts or reacts as you would think. It doesn't automatically mean they are guilty of something.

You are absolutely correct but in this case it sure doesn't mean she was not guilty of anything having to do with her daughter's death.

 

[pcrum12]

It is my understanding that RK clarified his first statement regarding the skull. He said that the garbage bag which he lifted up had been over the skull ~ the skull was on the ground, and he poked it to get a clearer look. I believe that the skull was partially embedded in the soil, where it had lain for months. The plant growth which had penetrated the bones may have kept the skull where it was found. The duct tape may have been entertwined with the hair as there was nothing left of the face. Oh, heaven help me...this is so difficult to imagine and too horrific to keep going round and round about that damn tape. Hair is like thread, and probably just enough of it had swirled around the fibers of the tape to keep it there. Three strips of duct tape, covering the face of Caylee Marie, covering her tiny nose and mouth and when those body parts decomposed or whatever, that duct tape refused to let go. The duct tape, which the DT tried every which way to discredit, attacking every bit of expert testimony with inexpert witnesses with questionable qualifications. Remember that old doc, way past his prime, unconvincingly trying to explain that he thought somebody took the skull and taped the mandible in place. Short of Caylee Marie flying down from heaven to testify in the courtroom that "mommy did it", I think there is sufficient evidence to point that out.

BBM: Which of the many statements are you referring to?

 

[ExpectingUnicorns]

I do not find anywhere in any doc or trial testimony that the tape was stuck to BOTH sides in the hair. Can you link?

May I ask why this detail would matter? And if it does matter, the converse of your request for a link equally applies; can you supply a link?

 

[lauriej]

Drowning is one theory of cause of death given the medical examiner could not find one. There are many possible causes of death, both deliberate and accidental. We simply don't know and most likely never will. I try not to make absolutely judgements of what all people do or don't do because where people are concerned, nothing much is absolute and many things beyond what you think are possible.

..the M.E. couldn't list the exact cause of death-------b/c of what she was "left to work with" by the time the remains had been found-----after the tissues/organs were long gone ( suffocation? drugs?? drowning?? etc.--so much for those tests!) animals had gnawed on the bones and scattered them around...

..fortunately, the duct tape was a poly/cotten blend, even though the cotten had deteriorated, and the tape was in less than stellar condition ( chewed up )-----the poly stood up to the weather/swamp conditions......still sticking to the hair, still evident that IT was what kept the mandible ( that should have fallen OFF/AWAY from the skull once the tissue was no longer there to keep it in place)..

..now why on earth would the body of a small child be in garbage bags in a swamp ----with 3 strips of heavy duty duct tape on the face and stuck to the child's hair ???

..dr.G. explained in great detail @ trial ALL of the factors an M.E. uses in determining c.o.d. etc.--------arriving at her conclusion:

http://www.wesh.com/download/2009/0619/19802034.pdf
--AUTOPSY report-----PAGE 1-----

C.O.D. homicide by undetermined means.

..an accidental drowning----is not a homicide.

 

[NotRocketSighence]

Of course I have read and researched the autopsy. No where in that autopsy can I find that it states that the tape was on both side. If I have missed this please do point me to what I have missed.

Text sucks to relay tone sometimes Sorry. I was offering the autopsy report as a possibility not a definite.

I even listened to Jeff Ashton questioning the (dont recall his name) older gentleman who did the DT autopsy and from what I gathered the UNpixelated photos show it. Of course we don't have access to those to see for ourselves.

My view is even if it shows it there, on both sides, suggesting possibly a murder, nothing proves Casey did it.