The Verdict - Do you agree or disagree?

[askfornina]

I'll answer this...although the evidence I'm going to speak of wasn't necessarily, IMO, not up to par. Rather, I will just give my opinion on some of the evidence I can see was either lost on the jury or disputed in a way that added confusion, and why (MOO).

The infamous Chloroform.

The defense made Vass look like a kook. In reality, he truly is brilliant. I read a book called Stiff not long ago. And there was a chapter on The Body Farm. The author of the book took a tour of The Body Farm and Vass was her guide. The man really is a genius when it comes to decomposing bodies. He is so passionate about understanding what happens to a dead body during different scenarios/conditions/stages and it was painful to watch the DT attempt to tear down his testimony. I could see that it was the DT playing dirty and trying to dismiss what Vass was saying, but I can also see how people who don't know who Vass is, or know about his extensive studies and experience with decomp would tend to lean toward him being a nut. Like I said, it was hard for me to watch because he is absolutely mind-blowingly brilliant in the study of human decomposition, and highly respected in his field.

The computer searches did kind of bore me. But I'm a computer nerd, so listening to a lot of stuff I already know made me tune out a bit. You know...the stuff in the beginning about what happens when a file is deleted, how the file system works, retrieval of deleted data, yada yada yada. And even if you don't know all that stuff, I can see how it might put some to sleep. As for the 84 vs. 1 computer searches for how to make chloroform...the number of searches is irrelevant as far as I'm concerned and I think maybe too much emphasis was put on the number when it probably should have been more on what was searched. I know it was made to be important, but it was the 84 times that seemed to be repeated a lot.

MOO

thank you for answering! i can very much agree that dr.vass is a brilliant man and i very much enjoyed watching his testimony. i can also agree that the quantity of the searches is not really what matters. your posts does bring up some issues that i disagree with as far as the chloroform evidence, but i am NOT interesting in rehashing any of that, but rather i am interested in responses to my question, not arguments.

i do agree with the verdict, but i do not agree that the DT opening statements are what actually happened. i resent the fact that some posts on this forum seem to say that everyone who agrees with the verdict must think the opening statements were true.

as you said, you didn't actually answer my question in the way i intended, but i appreciate the answer nonetheless. i would be greatly interested in other posters opinions on the issue.

 

[natsound]

Not at all. They covered so GA wouldn't go to prison for the rest of his life IMO

The evidence points to no one but KC. Never has, never will point to anyone else.

 

[logicalgirl]

Wasn't planning on being back into this thread, but apparently I've been "insulting and attacking" re my comments - so thought I best come back in and clarify.

We were speaking about evidence being argued. My statement was that to argue irrefutable evidence was to say a blue sky was green. Still my opinion.

But if a poster wants to express their opinion about how this irrefutable evidence applies or does not apply to this case - well then more power to you.

Just to get the fact straight - I thought I'd bring an FBI analysis summary over to everyone can be clear just what the legal document of evidence presented actually was. Sorry it's a bit lengthy for those who are "light" readers or like their information in "sound bites". Enjoy!

http://www.thehinkymeter.com/Library/CMA/reports/fbiodoranalysis6551_6591.pdf

 

[RueMoira]

Hmmm...how odd? I don't think anyone has ever accused me, or anyone in my family, of having a car that smelled like a dead body. We must have lived charmed lives. Why even the innocent little liar stated that her car smelled like a "dead squirrel"...so odd when there was no smell. And what is even more odd is not only does she claim that her car smells like a dead squirrel, but she then leaves trash in the car and parks it next to a dumpster to mask a smell that just wasn't there! How bizarre!?!. Heck most people would just take the trash out of the trunk...an otherwise immaculate trunk. But I guess they are just not that logical. The most logical thing to do when your car runs out of gas, and it is your only transportation, is to just leave the trash in the trunk and abandon that sucker. Who wouldn't?

 

[RR0004]

Wasn't planning on being back into this thread, but apparently I've been "insulting and attacking" re my comments - so thought I best come back in and clarify.

We were speaking about evidence being argued. My statement was that to argue irrefutable evidence was to say a blue sky was green. Still my opinion.

But if a poster wants to express their opinion about how this irrefutable evidence applies or does not apply to this case - well then more power to you.

Just to get the fact straight - I thought I'd bring an FBI analysis summary over to everyone can be clear just what the legal document of evidence presented actually was. Sorry it's a bit lengthy for those who are "light" readers or like their information in "sound bites". Enjoy!

http://www.thehinkymeter.com/Library/CMA/reports/fbiodoranalysis6551_6591.pdf

I am still in awe of the work of those at Oak Ridge...and especially of Dr. Vass. The man is brilliant, IMO. It doesn't bother me that some think Vass was a kook (his work will ultimately bear itself out)...we fear that which we don't understand or that goes against what we know...look at Galileo.

 

[Trapshooter]

In MY OPINION, Caylee drowned in the pool while GA and Casey were in the home with her. Casey was not watching her and GA thought Casey was. In MY OPINION, due to sexual molestation in the home to both Casey and Caylee, GA went in to cover up mode and Casey was so freaked she went alone. In my OPINION Casey is immature. In MY OPINION, GA packaged and dumped Caylee using CASEY's car before going to work. In MY OPINION, Casey never left the home at all until she pinged toward TL's. In MY OPINION, that gave GA and Casey from the time Cindy left until GA showed up at work, not just until 1pm. Again, IN MY OPINION.

OMG! pcrum12 you cannot be serious???? You think Casey AND Caylee were abused? This is utterly ridiculous!!! If Casey HAD been sexually abused by her father, why would she even allow her father to be around Caylee? Makes no sense whatsoever! You are entitled to your opinion, as I am entitled to mine. I will NEVER believe that George sexually molested his daughter and NEVER his granddaughter!

Ok, if you poll the jury in the beginning of deliberations, and everyone is in agreement as far as where there mind is at, there is no reason to further deliberate on the evidence. If you poll the jury and everyone is NOT in agreement, then you continue deliberations to understand the evidence in a way you can all agree. They came to a point where they understood the evidence in a way they could all agree. They "deliberated", whether or not it was in the amount of time people would've liked it to be. There isn't a minimum amount of time that juries have to deliberate, they talk until they come to an agreement.

When the jury first went into deliberations, they took a poll and the vote was 10 to 2. They took another poll on the aggravated manslaughter and the vote was 6 to 6. How were the 6 jurors that were convinced of aggravated manslaughter decide to vote not guilty? Evidently they didn't "deliberate" this opinion for any length of time because the verdict came back in less than 10 hours. I agree, the amount of time in deliberations is not a factor here but please explain to me how and what evidence convinced the 6 jurors to vote with the majority?

Wasn't it confiscated on the 17th? They were in the garage in the early AM hours of the 16th, when GA told YM about the smell in the trunk. IIRC, they didn't pick it up until SB saw the story on the news and alerted LE about it being in his towyard and the smell. Why not, when you're there interviewing the family and discover information about a smell from ex-LE, investigate that?? Perhaps because you were near the car and didn't smell anything? But, when you get another tipster call in, then you decide to investigate it and base everything off of this "smell" that for some reason wasn't there the first night?

And, from what I understand about this smell, it's nothing like you've ever smelled before. Don't you think if LE was confiscating a car, securing it up close and personal in all cracks, smelled something they've never smelled before, then were called to trial 3 years later (naturally remembering this because it's something you've never smelled before and it sticks in your mind once you smell it) they would testify that they, in fact, did smell something funny that day?

Logic, as far as I'm concerned, is based on perception when it comes to this case. I believe I'm a logical person. I try not to think with emotions. I try to see things for what they are. Just because I don't see things the way others do does not mean I lack logic, just because others don't see things my way doesn't mean they lack logic. And, in all of my posts I have not stated anyone else lacked it. IMO, it's all in the eyes of the beholder, and it does nothing for me personally to state others don't have it because they don't see things the way I do.

I'm confused here? I don't recall SB contacting the police to let them know the car was in his tow yard? The Anthony's picked the car up from the tow yard. IIRC, the LE contacted SB to obtain the trash bag that was thrown away when GA picked up the car. You also stated that SB works for OCSO? How so? By running a tow yard?

And for all of the naysayers out there, could someone please explain to me exactly HOW Caylee died and WHO killed her?

And for the poster (askfornina) that wants us "guilty posters" to explain any evidence that wasn't up to "par", here's my opinion...EVERY piece of evidence from the Prosecution was up to par! The duct tape, the chloroform, the decomposition odor in the trunk, the searches on the computer, et al.

 

[RR0004]

Random thought...but there are many here...and I, of course, am only speaking for myself, who have followed this case from the very beginning. We were never working at understanding the evidence from a hate-filled emotional point of view, but rather from a critical point of view. Initially, we wanted to help find Caylee. Then we wanted to understand what happened. Many spent an inordinate amount of time analyzing every piece of evidence...not because we hated the accused, but because we sincerely wanted to know what happened to Caylee. We banted about theories and questioned who knew what when (yada, yada, yada), but NEVER did we see any evidence that pointed to another person responsible. Is the family, dysfunctional...probably. But did "dysfunction" kill Caylee...absolutely not. Any anger I feel comes from knowing the evidence and seeing it summarily dismissed. Not because I hate Casey, but because there was a little girl who deserved justice. The only person who did not speak from Day 32 was Casey. The only other people who lied about the circumstances that surrounded her death were her family and her DT. If this was honestly an accident you'd know it. As this thread is "Do you agree or disagree with the verdict?", to state that those who believe she is guilty are coming from hating Casey is just wrong. I hate what happened to Caylee. I hate that the evidence (IMO) was ignored. I hate that justice wasn't served. I hate that the guilty are allowed to roam free among us. If Cindy and George are still grieving for the loss of their grandchild I can say the exact opposite for Casey. I have never once seen her cry for her daughter. I hate that we care more for this precious child than her own mother...and IMPO, more than the jury who did not care enough IMO to analyze every piece of evidence like we did, who did not challenge themselves to put the puzzle together. Caylee was the victim...but the jury couldn't see that.

 

[askfornina]

Random thought...but there are many here...and I, of course, am only speaking for myself, who have followed this case from the very beginning. We were never working at understanding the evidence from a hate-filled emotional point of view, but rather from a critical point of view. Initially, we wanted to help find Caylee. Then we wanted to understand what happened. Many spent an inordinate amount of time analyzing every piece of evidence...not because we hated the accused, but because we sincerely wanted to know what happened to Caylee. We banted about theories and questioned who knew what when (yada, yada, yada), but NEVER did we see any evidence that pointed to another person responsible. Is the family, dysfunctional...probably. But did "dysfunction" kill Caylee...absolutely not. Any anger I feel comes from knowing the evidence and seeing it summarily dismissed. Not because I hate Casey, but because there was a little girl who deserved justice. The only person who did not speak from Day 32 was Casey. The only other people who lied about the circumstances that surrounded her death were her family and her DT. If this was honestly an accident you'd know it. As this thread is "Do you agree or disagree with the verdict?", to state that those who believe she is guilty are coming from hating Casey is just wrong. I hate what happened to Caylee. I hate that the evidence (IMO) was ignored. I hate that justice wasn't served. I hate that the guilty are allowed to roam free among us. If Cindy and George are still grieving for the loss of their grandchild I can say the exact opposite for Casey. I have never once seen her cry for her daughter. I hate that we care more for this precious child than her own mother...and IMPO, more than the jury who did not care enough IMO to analyze every piece of evidence like we did, who did not challenge themselves to put the puzzle together.

thank you for this post. i respect all of your opinions even though i agree with the verdict. but i would like to point out that just because i agree with the verdict, it does NOT mean i don't love little caylee and it does not mean that i don't care about what happened to her. i know you weren't suggesting that with this post but i just wanted to say that.

 

[sacrablue]

And the frustrating part is most of it was all there and the more we work it and digest it and ponder it and debate it the events become more and more obvious. If we ever find out what went down June 16, I don't think it will really suprise us. I think we are 90% there by filling in the blanks with what we were given.

 

[GracieLu]

I disagree... it's a bigger leap to say some random hair landed on a pair of pliers in a boat of someone, with the original person never being on the boat to begin with. Then, to top it off, this person winds up dead, at the bottom of a lake that this boat was taken on. Not too far to leap.

imo not a "leap" at all... my hubby fishes, has pliers (the long type) that I use to pull up and out tiny little rubber bands my little she likes to put in her hair (don't want to use scissors and cut her hair)... hubby always screaming "where's my ______" (<---- can't remember what the heck he calls them, lol) when he heads out to fish....

wonder if SP is kicking himself.... if only he had made up excuses of where Lacy was for 31 days, said he was sexually abused by his mother, and ultimately confessed that Lacy tragically drowned after Lacy's mom had called the cops, he might just be a free man today...

 

[Thinker Belle]

GREAT article, pretty much says it all IMO
http://www.intellectualconservative...hardly-the-sharpest-noggins-in-the-courtroom/

<snipped>"Beyond a shadow of a doubt" means beyond any doubt whatsoever. On the other hand, "beyond a reasonable doubt" means beyond any doubt arrived at through-say it with me now--reasoning. Quite a difference between the two.

<snipped>Just a thought: I don't know one mother who would worry, even for a moment, that she might be implicated in her child's accidental death. By and large, mothers who lose one of their children to an accident--or an illness, or anything else--are far too distraught over the fact that they've lost their precious child to contemplate whether or not they could be implicated in the death of that child.

 

[GracieLu]

And the frustrating part is most of it was all there and the more we work it and digest it and ponder it and debate it the events become more and more obvious. If we ever find out what went down June 16, I don't think it will really suprise us. I think we are 90% there by filling in the blanks with what we were given.

i tend to think it is more horrible than I can even imagine... Bless you little Caylee!

 

[RueMoira]

wonder if SP is kicking himself.... if only he had made up excuses of where Lacy was for 31 days, said he was sexually abused by his mother, and ultimately confessed that Lacy tragically drowned after Lacy's mom had called the cops, he might just be a free man today...

No he wouldn't. First off all SP is a man, and we all know only men kill. Second, he did not have a banging bod...he would have never had the nerve to enter a hot body contest. Please! And third and most importantly...SP is a man...oh wait I already said that....oops.

 

[RR0004]

GREAT article, pretty much says it all IMO
http://www.intellectualconservative...hardly-the-sharpest-noggins-in-the-courtroom/

<snipped>"Beyond a shadow of a doubt" means beyond any doubt whatsoever. On the other hand, "beyond a reasonable doubt" means beyond any doubt arrived at through-say it with me now--reasoning. Quite a difference between the two.

<snipped>Just a thought: I don't know one mother who would worry, even for a moment, that she might be implicated in her child's accidental death. By and large, mothers who lose one of their children to an accident--or an illness, or anything else--are far too distraught over the fact that they've lost their precious child to contemplate whether or not they could be implicated in the death of that child.

I had heard on HLN today about a child who was found floating in a backyard pool. A neighbor heard the frantic screams of the parents (hope I'm getting it right...I was in the car)...and came running and performed CPR on the child. I started to think about Baez's opening statement...and how he said George screamed "Your mother will never forgive you!" (funny, weren't those Casey's own words?). Then I wondered if that was said to prepare for a claim by the State that there had been an argument. If they had called a neighbor (was it BB who said he had heard fighting/cursing?) to the stand to talk of the fight(s), they were ready to explain away any screaming. Just thinking...a day late and a dollar short.

 

[RR0004]

No he wouldn't. First off all SP is a man, and we all know only men kill. Second, he did not have a banging bod...he would have never had the nerve to enter a hot body contest. Please! And third and most importantly...SP is a man...oh wait I already said that....oops.

Rue...your posts are really funny, true...but also funny...which makes it kinda sad.

 

[cuppy199]

imo not a "leap" at all... my hubby fishes, has pliers (the long type) that I use to pull up and out tiny little rubber bands my little she likes to put in her hair (don't want to use scissors and cut her hair)... hubby always screaming "where's my ______" (<---- can't remember what the heck he calls them, lol) when he heads out to fish....

wonder if SP is kicking himself.... if only he had made up excuses of where Lacy was for 31 days, said he was sexually abused by his mother, and ultimately confessed that Lacy tragically drowned after Lacy's mom had called the cops, he might just be a free man today...

Lets not forget he was also a man. I often wonder if the tables were turned and it was LA child and not KA and he didnt report her for thirty one days and acted the same way KA and lying to police. And the DT had the same defense they did for KA would the jury have come back with a guilty verdict in the first degree. IMO they would of no doubt in my mind.

 

[Baznme]

Wasn't planning on being back into this thread, but apparently I've been "insulting and attacking" re my comments - so thought I best come back in and clarify.

We were speaking about evidence being argued. My statement was that to argue irrefutable evidence was to say a blue sky was green. Still my opinion.

But if a poster wants to express their opinion about how this irrefutable evidence applies or does not apply to this case - well then more power to you.

Just to get the fact straight - I thought I'd bring an FBI analysis summary over to everyone can be clear just what the legal document of evidence presented actually was. Sorry it's a bit lengthy for those who are "light" readers or like their information in "sound bites". Enjoy!

http://www.thehinkymeter.com/Library/CMA/reports/fbiodoranalysis6551_6591.pdf

This really jumped out at me.

2. Tire well scrapings
Methanol extracts of the tire well scrapings showed many diverse compounds (Acetic acid,
Octadecane, I-Heptanol, I-Undecanol, I-Nonanol, etc). Acetic acid (in an acid environment) and/or acetate ion (in an alkaline environment) are by-products of making chloroform with acetone and chlorine. pH measurements of the Florida trunk carpet sample indicate that the pH of the Florida trunk carpet was approximately 5.5 (acidic), which could have caused the formation of acetic acid.

Is the acetone and chlorine nothing more than nail polish remover and bleach?

Also, this:

1) Nearly all the compounds present in early human decomposition were detected in the
trunk samples if their concentrations were high enough to detect. Carbon tetrachloride
was also detected and is a human specific marker within these animal sets.
2) Compounds that have been detected in these select animal remains and not in humans
were not detected in the Florida trunk carpet sample (l-heptanol, Acetamide, N,Ndimethyl).
This is also suggestive of a human decompositional event.
3) Compounds associated with anaerobic decomposition are seen supporting a possible
deprived oxygen type of decompositional event.
4) Compounds with a late ADD were not detected supporting an early stage
decompositional event.

Thank you logicalgirl. I hadn't seen this until today. I'm more convinced now than ever that Caylee was in the trunk of that car.

 

[pcrum12]

Hmmm...and Casey sat in jail for 3+ years because...? This is a serious question.
BTW...why would George go to jail for the rest of his life if it was an accident?
Again...a serious question. TIA

For molesting his granddaughter JMO. Casey sat in jail covering for her father. Once she realized he was throwing her under the bus she told her DT. I don't think she told for quite a long time and by then it didn't matter. PT wasn't going to accept anything she told them. Again, all just my opinion. Alot of ppl do not believe the molestation, but I do. I've lived it, I seen the signs early on and certainly suspected such at the very beginning. Of course, I could be wrong, but I don't think so. All JMO

 

[Thinker Belle]

For molesting his granddaughter JMO. Casey sat in jail covering for her father. Once she realized he was throwing her under the bus she told her DT. I don't think she told for quite a long time and by then it didn't matter. PT wasn't going to accept anything she told them. Again, all just my opinion. Alot of ppl do not believe the molestation, but I do. I've lived it, I seen the signs early on and certainly suspected such at the very beginning. Of course, I could be wrong, but I don't think so. All JMO

Wow. And what 'signs' exactly did George exhibit that were consistent with molesting his granddaughter? That post made me sick to my stomach. To each his own belief I guess..

 

[RR0004]

This really jumped out at me.

2. Tire well scrapings
Methanol extracts of the tire well scrapings showed many diverse compounds (Acetic acid,
Octadecane, I-Heptanol, I-Undecanol, I-Nonanol, etc). Acetic acid (in an acid environment) and/or acetate ion (in an alkaline environment) are by-products of making chloroform with acetone and chlorine. pH measurements of the Florida trunk carpet sample indicate that the pH of the Florida trunk carpet was approximately 5.5 (acidic), which could have caused the formation of acetic acid.

Is the acetone and chlorine nothing more than nail polish remover and bleach?

Also, this:

1) Nearly all the compounds present in early human decomposition were detected in the
trunk samples if their concentrations were high enough to detect. Carbon tetrachloride
was also detected and is a human specific marker within these animal sets.
2) Compounds that have been detected in these select animal remains and not in humans
were not detected in the Florida trunk carpet sample (l-heptanol, Acetamide, N,Ndimethyl).
This is also suggestive of a human decompositional event.
3) Compounds associated with anaerobic decomposition are seen supporting a possible
deprived oxygen type of decompositional event.
4) Compounds with a late ADD were not detected supporting an early stage
decompositional event.

Thank you logicalgirl. I hadn't seen this until today. I'm more convinced now than ever that Caylee was in the trunk of that car.

I'm glad she posted it...we spent lots and lots of time reviewing these docs. We did not make evidence up to support our theories...we really tried to put the puzzle together. If there was testimony as to a decompositional event having occurred in the trunk, you can bank on it that there were findings that supported it.
Please understand that's what makes the verdict so difficult to accept...at least for me.