The Verdict - Do you agree or disagree?

[sacrablue]

If this question is directed at me, yes... I believe the bones found in the swamp were Caylee's.

Was there evidence to determine who was providing care for Caylee at the time of her death? If yes who?

 

[beccalecca1]

Well I guess it would considering his testimony is one of the reason the grand jury indicted her.If I remember correctly none of the other family was called to testify so the only one KC could possible blame was GA so no wonder their relationship change but its not like GA had a choice in the matter. Lets not forget this was before Caylee body was found in a swamp.

IMO, that doesn't mean GA didn't know Caylee's body was in the swamp and he was already in cover mode for himself.

 

[Sustained]

LE testified to entering the house through the garage door. No one used the front door that night.

Please cite the trial testimony where LE says they went strictly through the garage and not the front door. Also, Detective Hosey responded to CM that he did smell a foul odor coming from the vehicle as did Deputy Acevedo who said it smelled like garbage. Acevedo went on to say she had no experience in the smell of human decomp and would not be comfortable giving an opinion as such.

 

[cuppy199]

The jury never stopped to consider whether JB spoke the truth in his opening statement.
They never stopped to consider how CA looked when she was angry and holding a hammer. They never stopped to consider that if CA if had any suspicion that GA was molesting FCA....CA would have fixed GA forever. Also, CA wouldn't have called 911 after she put the knife down and flushed a very private part of GA down the toilet.
Not trying to be funny.....but seriously.....anybody really believe that GA would risk it.
GA did not do what JB said....that was done to make him look evil. FCA was the evil one, murdering her own child and letting her own father be named a molester to get her sorry azz out of there.

I have heard some say they know GA lied about an affair so they know he was a lying. I just had to add that I dont believe he did have an affair but even if he did I have to say I would almost expect someone to lie about an affair but what I cant except is a loving mother not reporting and lying for over 31 days about where their child was. To me that doesnt scream shame it screams guilt.And I still stand behind my opinion if it was a male the outcome would have been different. JMO

 

[Baznme]

Actually, the judge allowed JB to discuss the drowning during closing arguments because there was evidence to support that.

I don't recall anyone claiming aliens had anything to do with the case, or there being any evidence related to aliens.

That was a lucky maneuver on JB's part. He didn't enter those photos going swimming with Caylee and CA until after the trial started. The judge allowed it in but, a picture of a child going swimming with her grandmother does not make it "evident" that she drowned. HHJP was very lenient with the DT on this issue. Who ever thought the jury would put that much stock in it but, apparantly they did. Easier to think that she drowned rather than to believe a mother could do the unthinkable to her own child.

 

[TorisMom003]

There was evidence that Caylee was standing with her hand on the handle of a door that was open a little bit, however, since it was a still photo we do not know if she had opened that door or even could open that door on her own.

There was evidence that Caylee could climb the pool ladder with her life vest on with Cindy behind her "helping" her, however, there was no evidence that Caylee could put the life vest on by herself or that she could/would climb the pool ladder by herself.

Children are, and I use this term only because at the moment I can't think of a better phrase to explain it the way I would like to, creatures of habit. If a child takes a nap at a certain time for any number of days they will take a nap at that same time as long as they still take naps. Caylee's habit concerning the pool was that she must have her life vest on, she must go up the pool ladder with help, she must wait at the top of the pool ladder for an adult to be in the pool before Caylee jumped in. So IMO that evidence that the DT presented that Caylee drowned was nothing more than photos of Caylee enjoying the pool with her grandmother and Caylee imitating adults by placing her hand on the handle of an already open sliding glass door.

MOO

 

[beccalecca1]

Was there evidence to determine who was providing care for Caylee at the time of her death? If yes who?

No. If you went according to GA's statement, Casey left to drop Caylee of at Zanny's (who we now know doesn't exist). But, in many of GA's appearances on the stand he lied. After re-listening to trial testimony and comparing it to prior statements to LE and depositions, I've noticed he lies when he tells the most details. So, IMO, his account of his last goodbyes were all a lie.

Now, if you go by the theory of a possible drowning, both Casey and GA were in the house, but GA states he would "watch" Caylee while Casey got ready for work. Would he be considered the provider at that point? What if Casey took a nap since she was up all hours of the night talking to TL, asked GA to watch Caylee and she got outside, up the ladder, and drowned without GA knowing and stopping her?

If you were to blend the 2 stories to attempt to figure out who was actually the one responsible for her at the moment of her death, I think it would be really hard to decipher who it was.

 

[2door73chevy]

So are you saying you think the verdict would have been different if it had been just a LWOP murder charge? I'm curious...

Yes..I believe so. I think it was in the back of the jury's minds at all times, even if was not supposed to be, they are human.

I would never want to take part in sending ANYONE to their death, unless I was 100% sure they did it....JMO

 

[cuppy199]

Please cite the trial testimony where LE says they went strictly through the garage and not the front door. Also, Detective Hosey responded to CM that he did smell a foul odor coming from the vehicle as did Deputy Acevedo who said it smelled like garbage. Acevedo went on to say she had no experience in the smell of human decomp and would not be comfortable giving an opinion as such.

I could be wrong but I also thought at one point the car was parked on the street and not in the garage.

 

[Sustained]

No. If you went according to GA's statement, Casey left to drop Caylee of at Zanny's (who we now know doesn't exist). But, in many of GA's appearances on the stand he lied. After re-listening to trial testimony and comparing it to prior statements to LE and depositions, I've noticed he lies when he tells the most details. So, IMO, his account of his last goodbyes were all a lie.

FCA's official statement to police puts her with Caylee before dropping her at Zanny's. Also, you keep referring to GA's lies ... please help us out and point out GA's lies on the stand. And his denying the affair with RC cannot be considered a lie just b/c you think he did ...

 

[Baznme]

IMO, that doesn't mean GA didn't know Caylee's body was in the swamp and he was already in cover mode for himself.

Becca, please..........tell us what YOU think happened to Caylee. What went down and how did it happen. You don't believe expert testimony. You discredit most of what others post yet, you offer no explanation of what you DO believe happened. Please share with us what it is you think took place so we know better where you think the truth begins and ends.

 

[BuzzieCat]

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This is somewhat that confuses me because I really just don't see FCA doing all this. There would be way too much chance of an amateur accidentally knocking out or killing themselves or of having their little chemical creation accidentally discovered. I think if she were considering using chloroform on Caylee, whether to make her sleep temporarily or to kill her, she'd read these instructions and warnings and figure out there must be some other way to do it. It's not like Caylee was a giant 250-pound man to overpower. So I'm always torn as to whether or not I believe the chloroform in the trunk means anything regarding Caylee's death.

The defense doesn't have to prove not one thing. They don't even have to present a case. The burden is on the state to present the evidence to uphold the charges that they have brought to the table of the accused.

That is true legally. However, though I do not know what the laws are concerning this, I find it hard to believe the defense can legally just make up unsubstantiated stories and they don't have to prove that. Maybe they don't have to prove it, but they sure weren't allowed to use it in closing.

In MY OPINION, Caylee drowned in the pool while GA and Casey were in the home with her. Casey was not watching her and GA thought Casey was. In MY OPINION, due to sexual molestation in the home to both Casey and Caylee, GA went in to cover up mode and Casey was so freaked she went alone. In my OPINION Casey is immature. In MY OPINION, GA packaged and dumped Caylee using CASEY's car before going to work. In MY OPINION, Casey never left the home at all until she pinged toward TL's. In MY OPINION, that gave GA and Casey from the time Cindy left until GA showed up at work, not just until 1pm. Again, IN MY OPINION.

I just don't understand how you can say there's no evidence that FCA killed Caylee, but apparently you do believe that there is evidence for this drowning/molestation story. That's every bit as emotional and every bit as speculative as those of us who believe FCA is guilty are accused of being. IMO.

Sure, absolutely, little kids drown in pools fairly often. There's no question it could have happened in this case. I don't argue that one bit. But it's a leap to say that because the Anthonys might not have been as diligent about the ladder as they could have been, and because there are pictures of Caylee in the process of opening the back door, ERGO she must have drowned in the pool. The pictures of Caylee at the back door or at/in the pool are not proof that she drowned. That assumption would be, IMO, just that, an assumption, a speculation, a leap.

As for FCA's odd (to say the least) behavior meaning that she must have had something terrible happen to her to make her that way, that's not necessarily true, either. Some people have terrible childhoods but manage to overcome it. Some have terrible childhoods and don't overcome it. OTOH, there are mean, selfish, and/or nutty people who were treated well as children and are just the way they are for reasons that we just don't understand.

For molesting his granddaughter JMO. Casey sat in jail covering for her father. Once she realized he was throwing her under the bus she told her DT. I don't think she told for quite a long time and by then it didn't matter. PT wasn't going to accept anything she told them. Again, all just my opinion. Alot of ppl do not believe the molestation, but I do. I've lived it, I seen the signs early on and certainly suspected such at the very beginning. Of course, I could be wrong, but I don't think so. All JMO

Molestation certainly does happen and I'm sorry for what you have experienced, but just because it does happen doesn't mean it happened in this case.

 

[butwhatif?]

Wouldn't you need to see a doctor to get medicine? Or are you just talking about giving an over-the-counter drug?

Again, OT to the thread topic, but an interesting story about fever vs accident....
OTC pain and fever relief.... which is what I had been giving her while she was sick to treat the 103-104 temp for the week. Obviously I had already taken her to the doc prior to that for the dx of 5th. unfortunately there's no antibiotic or other treatments to help with this disease.
When that fever wouldn't budge, she was barely eating, but was drinking water and was really lethargic I took her to the ER.
But the ER sent us home saying as long as she was getting fluids and I kept giving her the fever meds, that there was no real danger.....because 'a fever is a good thing'. (even though the fever meds weren't getting her temp down to where it needed to be).
I seriously wanted to slap the next doc or nurse who said that, because it seemed so serious to me knowing the dangers of fever.Thankfully she started to improve in the next few days.

.....Which is when my younger DD fell off her scooter landing face-first on the tiles at home. She knocked out a few teeth, and had a gaping hole right through her lower lip. Blood everywhere. anic:

This trip to the ER was very different. I was drilled about how the accident happened. Who witnessed it? Did anyone push her? When I started to answer 'no' they said 'No! We want to hear it from her'

I knew what those questions meant. I couldn't believe they thought there was a possibility that it had been from abuse. Thankfully she's old enough to explain in detail what happened and that it really was just an accident.

She had to go under GA to have plastic surgery and oral surgery, and I was there when they knocked her out. I had been calm on the outside for DD's sake but was panicking internally. They even questioned my 'calmness' under the circumstances. It wasn't until I explained that I used to be a dental nurse and had seen this kind of thing many times before, and I knew how important it was for a parent to keep calm for the child's sake, that they seemed to finally believe that I wasn't an abusive or negligent parent.

 

[cuppy199]

IMO, that doesn't mean GA didn't know Caylee's body was in the swamp and he was already in cover mode for himself.

My point about the body being found was they would not of needed a grand jury. I would be curious to know just how GA testifying to the grand jury was a cover up mode for himself?

 

[Caligram]

And you know JB hates this man? How?

Because JB hated anyone smarter than he was, and Dr. Vass actually knew what he was talking about. Dr. Vass worked extremely hard to not have to "dumb down" his explanations to JB. When JB hired "defense experts" to discredit Dr. Vass and his "junk science" results, maybe the jury bought it. Regarding those experts hired by JB, well some puppets are willing to throw garbage at junk science.

 

[RR0004]

Yes..I believe so. I think it was in the back of the jury's minds at all times, even if was not supposed to be, they are human.

I would never want to take part in sending ANYONE to their death, unless I was 100% sure they did it....JMO

Then they wouldn't have opted for the DP during the penalty phase. But let's also remember they were questioned during voir dire...the panel was chosen as being death penalty qualified.

 

[gladiatorqueen]

Yes..I believe so. I think it was in the back of the jury's minds at all times, even if was not supposed to be, they are human.

I think you've made a very important point. All juries have a bias -- but, typically, a death-qualified jury has a bias towards favouring the prosecution and in convicting. I think this jury was an anomaly on that front, for sure, and hence, I believe this is one of the reasons for the uproar around the NG verdict.

If you (or anyone else) is interested in exploring this topic I would suggest you read this (super informative):

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1272/is_2670_129/ai_72272563/?tag=mantle_skin;content

My understanding is that the State will often charge for DP because they are more likely to end up with a jury that will convict (guilty).

I also believe that while it is ideal that jurors won't be influenced by things outside of the evidence -- they are human and just like all of us will likely respond to many things (i.e. personality of lawyers, witnesses, defendent, etc.) subconsciously. We all do that every single day.

This plays into how the DT and SA perform in the courtroom and in how they choose jurors.

http://criminaldefense.homestead.com/JurySelection.html

Lastly, I found this of particular interest as I think many of the points definitely ring true in terms of this trial and to how the jurors may have responded to what was presented to them during the trial.

April 15, 2008
A Few Things to Know About Juries
In the April, 2008, issue of the Illinois Bar Journal, you'll find some interesting tidbits about juries in "Lessons from Jury Research," by Sara Parikh and Terrence Lavin.

Some examples--

•Juries care most about the "strength of the evidence" and make decisions on that basis, rather than giving in to pre-conceived biases or emotional appeals.
•Juries try to fit each bit of evidence into a "cohesive story"; if they can't do it, the evidence "tends to get dismissed or serves to reframe the story."
•Juries tend to discount expert testimony unless it is firmly rooted in the factual evidence.
•While lawyers must sometimes "emphasize and even repeat important concepts," juries quickly become frustrated by needless repetition.
•Even if jurors come to a trial with a particular bias in favor of the plaintiff or defense, these feelings are rarely so entrenched that they will predict the juror's decision about a particular case.

http://www.illinoistrialpractice.com/voir_dire/

Just some food for thought.

 

[back2back19]

Yes..I believe so. I think it was in the back of the jury's minds at all times, even if was not supposed to be, they are human.

I would never want to take part in sending ANYONE to their death, unless I was 100% sure they did it....JMO

That's why there are two phases though. The penalty phase and the guilt phase. And really, since this jury was death penalty qualified, not sure why the dp was even an issue.

 

[gladiatorqueen]

Because JB hated anyone smarter than he was, and Dr. Vass actually knew what he was talking about.

I'm sorry, my question is how do you know this? Did JB tell you this? Was he quoted somewhere as saying this?

 

[RR0004]

No. If you went according to GA's statement, Casey left to drop Caylee of at Zanny's (who we now know doesn't exist). But, in many of GA's appearances on the stand he lied. After re-listening to trial testimony and comparing it to prior statements to LE and depositions, I've noticed he lies when he tells the most details. So, IMO, his account of his last goodbyes were all a lie.

Now, if you go by the theory of a possible drowning, both Casey and GA were in the house, but GA states he would "watch" Caylee while Casey got ready for work. Would he be considered the provider at that point? What if Casey took a nap since she was up all hours of the night talking to TL, asked GA to watch Caylee and she got outside, up the ladder, and drowned without GA knowing and stopping her?

If you were to blend the 2 stories to attempt to figure out who was actually the one responsible for her at the moment of her death, I think it would be really hard to decipher who it was.

Except the pool ladder wasn't left up. Except no one testified to Casey having been sleeping. Except that Casey (herself) stated that she left the house with Caylee.
Otherwise...pure speculation.
As far as George's change in stories...he could only go so far off course. He was locked into his deposition...as was Cindy. I agree that there were discrepancies. The only person George was covering for was his daughter. In the end, I don't think he cared quite as much.