The Wine Cellar

[Anti-K]

But why bother?

Maybe because he wanted to hide the body in the house.
...

AK

 

[Tawny]

Maybe because he wanted to hide the body in the house.
...

AK

To what end?

 

[Anti-K]

To what end?

Sorry, but I can only guess as to the motivation, and my guess probably isn’t much better than anyone else’s. However, it seems obvious – to me, anyway – that the killer never intended on removing his victim from the house. And, he did hide her.

If IDI, then the killer may have hidden her simply because he didn’t want the parents to find her, or to know that she was still in the house (hence, the ransom note). Or, possibly, he wanted the authorities to find her in the house (hence, the ransom note).

If RDI, then I’m not sure why the killer would have hidden the body, or more specifically, why it would have been hidden in that room. It would make some sense if it was in the trunk of the car, or in the garage somewhere; but, in the basement?
...

AK

 

[Tawny]

IMHO, IDI hiding her anywhere doesn't fit anything. If they were trying to frame the parents, why not leave her out in the open to be easily found? If they were just sadistic crazy people/person, why not just leave her in the open? If they intended to actually kidnap her, why not just take her.

I can't fathom a scenario in which IDI would hide the body in the wine cellar and then put a chair in front of the door.

 

[icedtea4me]

IMHO, IDI hiding her anywhere doesn't fit anything. If they were trying to frame the parents, why not leave her out in the open to be easily found? If they were just sadistic crazy people/person, why not just leave her in the open? If they intended to actually kidnap her, why not just take her.

I can't fathom a scenario in which IDI would hide the body in the wine cellar and then put a chair in front of the door.

I'm fairly certain the chair was in front of the train room door (the one with the open window with the broken pane of glass). It was discussed in John's June 1998 BPD interview.

 

[icedtea4me]

Sorry, but I can only guess as to the motivation, and my guess probably isn’t much better than anyone else’s. However, it seems obvious – to me, anyway – that the killer never intended on removing his victim from the house. And, he did hide her.

If IDI, then the killer may have hidden her simply because he didn’t want the parents to find her, or to know that she was still in the house (hence, the ransom note). Or, possibly, he wanted the authorities to find her in the house (hence, the ransom note).

If RDI, then I’m not sure why the killer would have hidden the body, or more specifically, why it would have been hidden in that room. It would make some sense if it was in the trunk of the car, or in the garage somewhere; but, in the basement?
...

AK

Well, the wine cellar, imo, would have come closest to resembling Lazarus's tomb than the trunk of a car or the garage.

 

[OliviaG1996]

Well, the wine cellar, imo, would have come closest to resembling Lazarus's tomb than the trunk of a car or the garage.

Plus, if the killer decided to put JB in the trunk and leave her there, and the police searched the car, it would show the killer had keys to the car (if there were no signs of forced entry on the trunk, of course). Pretty much game over for the Ramseys then.

 

[Anti-K]

IMHO, IDI hiding her anywhere doesn't fit anything. If they were trying to frame the parents, why not leave her out in the open to be easily found? If they were just sadistic crazy people/person, why not just leave her in the open? If they intended to actually kidnap her, why not just take her.

I can't fathom a scenario in which IDI would hide the body in the wine cellar and then put a chair in front of the door.

As others have said, the chair was not in front of the door. But, this doesn’t change your point, because the door was latched from the outside which sort of demonstrates the same intent if the chair had been put there.

Hiding her in the house makes sense if the killer had nowhere to take her to. This is a very simple and logical explanation.

Hiding her in the house makes sense if the killer wanted investigators to find her but he didn’t want the parents to find her.
...

AK

 

[Anti-K]

Plus, if the killer decided to put JB in the trunk and leave her there, and the police searched the car, it would show the killer had keys to the car (if there were no signs of forced entry on the trunk, of course). Pretty much game over for the Ramseys then.

When you get down to it, if RDI, the Ramseys were presenting the police with a crime scene. They created it for the police. Look here, see this.

As far as investigators are concerned one room is the same as another. They are all inside the house. If the Ramseys wanted investigators to find the body they could have simply left her anywhere – bedroom, living room, etc.

However, if the Ramseys did not want investigators to find the body and/or if they planned to dispose of it at some point then they should have placed it in the trunk of the car. Or, very near the car.

Yes, if the police searched the car and found the body the gig is up, but the same is true if they search the house. And, while it’s easy to see LE searching the house- it is a crime scene – it seems less likely that they would search the car.

BTW, locked trunk and locked house with no sign of forced entry is sort of the same.
...

AK

 

[BBB167893]

To what end?

You're thinking like me, Tawny.

 

[BBB167893]

Hiding her in the house makes sense if the killer had nowhere to take her to. This is a very simple and logical explanation.

Agreed.

 

[BBB167893]

When you get down to it, if RDI, the Ramseys were presenting the police with a crime scene. They created it for the police. Look here, see this.

Now you're getting it.

As far as investigators are concerned one room is the same as another. They are all inside the house. If the Ramseys wanted investigators to find the body they could have simply left her anywhere – bedroom, living room, etc.

However, if the Ramseys did not want investigators to find the body and/or if they planned to dispose of it at some point then they should have placed it in the trunk of the car. Or, very near the car.

I don't think there was a plan to dipose of her. Or if there was, it was discounted very quickly.
But I wonder if the intent was for the investigators to find her. I've been assuming that JR finding her when the cops didn't was "Plan B." What if it wasn't? Just spitballing.

 

[Anti-K]

Now you're getting it.



I don't think there was a plan to dipose of her. Or if there was, it was discounted very quickly.
But I wonder if the intent was for the investigators to find her. I've been assuming that JR finding her when the cops didn't was "Plan B." What if it wasn't? Just spitballing.

If the Ramseys had truly wanted investigators to find her then they shouldn’t have bothered to hide her. I mean, what good does it do to hide her – a botched kidnapping is a botched kidnapping – and how does hiding her far away from a kidnapper’s exit point further that?
See, this is another example of no simple RDI explanation.

However, it’s good to see that we agree on something: the crime scene was created for investigators.
...

AK

 

[Aynia]

If the Ramseys had truly wanted investigators to find her then they shouldn’t have bothered to hide her. I mean, what good does it do to hide her – a botched kidnapping is a botched kidnapping – and how does hiding her far away from a kidnapper’s exit point further that?
See, this is another example of no simple RDI explanation.

However, it’s good to see that we agree on something: the crime scene was created for investigators.
...

AK

Because the entry /exit point was supposed to be the broken basement window, that's close...

 

[inspector rex]

Because the entry /exit point was supposed to be the broken basement window, that's close...

If you wanted someone to think the entry/exit point was the broken window, then you wouldn't see that it was open and latch it from the inside.

 

[Aynia]

If you wanted someone to think the entry/exit point was the broken window, then you wouldn't see that it was open and latch it from the inside.

IMO there was a change of plans from whoever did it, about the window. The suitcase was placed bellow it. And glass was on the floor since summer, despite Patsy cleaning and Linda vacuuming ( even if she doesn't remember... )

 

[BBB167893]

If the Ramseys had truly wanted investigators to find her then they shouldn’t have bothered to hide her. I mean, what good does it do to hide her – a botched kidnapping is a botched kidnapping – and how does hiding her far away from a kidnapper’s exit point further that?
See, this is another example of no simple RDI explanation.

Well, I don't know if I'm the right person to answer that, Anti-K. I'm wondering if that was the idea, after all.

However, it’s good to see that we agree on something: the crime scene was created for investigators.

I'll take what I can get.

 

[Anti-K]

Because the entry /exit point was supposed to be the broken basement window, that's close...

No, the broken window was on the opposite side of the basement, and in a completely different room. The body was nowhere near it. The body was inside a windowless room. It was not near any entry/exit point.

As to the claim that the broken window was supposed to be the entry/exit point – where is the evidence for that? We’re they just hoping that it would get noticed? Why? And, when it wasn’t noticed did they do anything to draw investigator’s attention to the window? No.

Why not just say, a door might have been left unlocked, or leave the garage door open a cpl feet, or say they found a door or window ajar/open; etc. No rocket science required here.
...

AK

 

[Tawny]

If the Ramseys had truly wanted investigators to find her then they shouldn’t have bothered to hide her. I mean, what good does it do to hide her – a botched kidnapping is a botched kidnapping – and how does hiding her far away from a kidnapper’s exit point further that?
See, this is another example of no simple RDI explanation.

However, it’s good to see that we agree on something: the crime scene was created for investigators.
...

AK

The fail in logic is astounding.

This is an example of NO IDI explanation. Why would an intruder hide her body? Seriously, please answer that for me. Why would an intruder hide her body rather than take her with them and dump her, or leave her where she was? Did an intruder seriously believe she would NEVER EVER be found inside the house?

Serious question: Why would an intruder hide her body in a dark room in a basement?

 

[Mama2JML]

The fail in logic is astounding.

This is an example of NO IDI explanation. Why would an intruder hide her body? Seriously, please answer that for me. Why would an intruder hide her body rather than take her with them and dump her, or leave her where she was? Did an intruder seriously believe she would NEVER EVER be found inside the house?

Serious question: Why would an intruder hide her body in a dark room in a basement?

Perhaps the RN was meant to delay & misdirect, and the body was placed in the wine cellar to ensure she was found. Part of the fantasy? Maybe this was the perp's plan from the start. Or, maybe he did intend to take the victim with him, but changed his mind for any number of reasons. (I.e to avoid detection)