The Wine Cellar

[madeleine]

dunno about you but IMO in this type of family the one with the clear head would be the wife.you can also observe it in their LE interviews.he's the weak one IMO.
he's also the one who loses temper (see the LKL show with ST)
if she's a good actor (crying,fainting and stuff) doesn't mean she's weak.the weakest one though has to be always careful re what he answers.and Kane said it too,it was him to always was carefully re his answers.
she fought cancer,such women are tough..they need to be.
he on the other hand was a mess after losing Beth and IMO he NEVER recovered.

 

[UKGuy]

Yes there has been some quibbling about semantics amongst a few profilers.
There is no disagreement, however, with the primary definition of staging which is to redirect the investigation away from the most logical suspect.
In the JonBenet case, staging was for the purpose of redirecting the investigation away from the logical suspects, the family.
The ransom note, the clearest example of staging, introduced a fictional intruder or intruders for police to pursue.

“Undoing” shares nothing in common with “precautionary acts.”
Turvey and others describe precautionary acts as including; disguises, gloves, voice alteration, use of a blindfold on the victim, commission of a crime under cover of darkness and or in a secluded location, removing and or destroying evidence etc.
The point of precautionary acts is self preservation. The perpetrator is taking action to reduce the possibility of getting caught or prosecuted for the crime.
An example of a precautionary act in the Ramsey case would be wiping down the flashlight and the batteries within.
Undoing, on the other hand, is all about remorse. A parent involved in the death of their child, especially if it was accidental would be very likely to experience deep remorse.
Although it is not inevitable that they would resort to acts of undoing to help cope with their remorse, it is probable and profilers have documented a number of such incidents over the years.
Doing positive things for the victim becomes a psychological “salve” for a hurting conscience.
Placing a toy or doll near a child, wrapping them up for comfort, cleaning a wound, this has nothing to do with misdirecting police, or precaution, it has everything to do with making the perpetrator feel better about the horrific act that they have just committed.
I agree that technical terminology can serve to bog us down rather than be helpful in some instances. That being said, rooms or areas within a home are not divided into primary and secondary crime scenes, to the best of my knowledge. I remember discussing this with respect to a hypothetical involving JonBenet being transported away from the home and her body being dumped or buried. In this case the home would be the primary crime scene and the vehicle and burial site would be secondary crime scenes.
Distinguishing between primary and secondary crime scenes:
There may be more to a crime scene than first meets the eye. In fact, more than one crime scene may exist, depending upon how the crime was committed — not to mention where. Crime scenes therefore are considered either primary or secondary. The primary crime scene is where a crime actually occurred. A secondary crime scene is in some way related to the crime but is not where the actual crime took place.
In a bank robbery, for example, the bank is the primary scene, but the get-away car and the thief's hideout are secondary scenes. In the case of a killer who commits a murder in someone's home but transports the victim's body to a river for disposal, the victim's home is the primary scene, and the killer's vehicle and the point along the river where the body was dumped are secondary scenes.
Forensics: Assessing the Scene of the Crime, Douglas P. Lyle
I agree, many items would be included. This was not a premeditated crime; items were utilized from within the home as they were needed.
Yes, redressing is a common act of undoing.

I guess my bottom line is this. Whoever did this to JonBenet could have left a significantly bloodied, semi-nude corpse laying on cold, dusty, mildewy concrete floor surrounded by nothing familiar, or perhaps even dumped outside.
This would actually be “better” staging as it would point with greater clarity toward an intruder as outlined in the RN, someone with no emotional investment in JonBenet.
Instead she was cleaned up, redressed, covered and comforted.
Why? I contend it’s for the same reason as in the following case.
The following case exemplifies undoing. A son stabbed his mother to death during a fierce argument. After calming down, the son realized the full impact of his actions. First, he changed the victim’s bloodied shirt and then placed her body on the couch with her head on a pillow. He covered her with a blanket and folded her hands over her chest so she appeared to be sleeping peacefully. This behavior indicated his remorse by attempting to emotionally undo the murder. Other forms of undoing may include the offender’s washing up, cleaning the body, covering the victim’s face, or completely covering the body. The offender engages in these activities not because he is attempting to hide the victim but because he may be feeling some degree of remorse.
Crime Classification Manual, John Douglas, Robert Ressler, page 34

cynic,

“Undoing” shares nothing in common with “precautionary acts.”
Turvey and others describe precautionary acts as including; disguises, gloves, voice alteration, use of a blindfold on the victim, commission of a crime under cover of darkness and or in a secluded location, removing and or destroying evidence etc.
The point of precautionary acts is self preservation. The perpetrator is taking action to reduce the possibility of getting caught or prosecuted for the crime.
An example of a precautionary act in the Ramsey case would be wiping down the flashlight and the batteries within.
Undoing, on the other hand, is all about remorse. A parent involved in the death of their child, especially if it was accidental would be very likely to experience deep remorse.
Although it is not inevitable that they would resort to acts of undoing to help cope with their remorse, it is probable and profilers have documented a number of such incidents over the years.
Doing positive things for the victim becomes a psychological “salve” for a hurting conscience.
Placing a toy or doll near a child, wrapping them up for comfort, cleaning a wound, this has nothing to do with misdirecting police, or precaution, it has everything to do with making the perpetrator feel better about the horrific act that they have just committed.

Whilst 'Undoing' shares nothing in common with 'precautionary acts' may be generally true, interpreting one from the other might be rather more difficult to determine in practise.

Many of the things you cite as examples of undoing may simply be precautionary acts e.g cleaning and wiping down removes forensic evidence. Redressing JonBenet diverts attention away from the probable primary scene and masks any immediately observable physical signs of assault e.g. sexual molestation.

I guess my bottom line is this. Whoever did this to JonBenet could have left a significantly bloodied, semi-nude corpse laying on cold, dusty, mildewy concrete floor surrounded by nothing familiar, or perhaps even dumped outside.
This would actually be “better” staging as it would point with greater clarity toward an intruder as outlined in the RN, someone with no emotional investment in JonBenet.
Instead she was cleaned up, redressed, covered and comforted.

The wine-cellar is a secondary crime scene, and there is no agreement that this was where JonBenet was intended to be found. Some posters suggest e.g. DeeDee249, the Ramsey's were going to wait until the search parties had all gone home then they would deal with JonBenet's corpse. That is the wine-cellar may not be a staged crime-scene, one planned to confuse and redirect the investigator. Its simply like your killer's vehicle and the point along the river where the body was dumped are secondary scenes. Here the wine-cellar is an instrument of concealment an intermediate secondary crime-scene.

This would actually be “better” staging as it would point with greater clarity toward an intruder as outlined in the RN, someone with no emotional investment in JonBenet.

All of which points to a prior secondary crime scene, where some elements of undoing may have occurred, this was then revised in favor of an abduction scenario, which required JonBenet to become invisible and not be dumped outdoors. So I am suggesting that the use of the wine-cellar is alike the garrote simply opportunistic, a pragmatic decision made in the panic to revise and clear up, possibly staged, signs of a homicide. This includes the removal of the pink nightgown and barbie doll, but not her size-6 underwear which I reckon was replaced with the size-12's, IMO this represents staging not undoing!


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[UKGuy]

are there two stagers in this case?
the RN seems to be written by a cold blooded calculated person who knew she/he needs something in order to divert attention (planning,calculation)
then we have JB wrapped in a blanket.
i don't think the same person did both
i think the one who wiped off JB's body and redressed her was the calculated one.doesn't matter how it happened,it can't be easy,there are people who just can't/wouldn't do it.
but that had to be done also,to remove evidence.

so I guess what I wanna say is,IMO

one wrote the note,cleaned and redressed JB (PR)
and the other one wrapped her in the blanket (sign of remorse,love,whatever) and IMO this person was JR.

madeleine,
It looks like there were two or more staging events, possibly even three if you assume the primary crime-scene may have been cleaned up then the following staged crime-scene was situated in a different location which was then revised with JonBenet ending up in the wine-cellar.

Three people or two?


.

 

[madeleine]

madeleine,
It looks like there were two or more staging events, possibly even three if you assume the primary crime-scene may have been cleaned up then the following staged crime-scene was situated in a different location which was then revised with JonBenet ending up in the wine-cellar.

Three people or two?


.

maybe three,dunno.one of my theories is that after some staging it got to hard (emotionally) and they called someone from AG over to clean the scene/possibily the body as well(the unknown DNA owner?)
it's just hard to believe that only ONE person was responsible for all the staging,too many elements and most contradict each other.

 

[UKGuy]

maybe three,dunno.one of my theories is that after some staging it got to hard (emotionally) and they called someone from AG over to clean the scene/possibily the body as well(the unknown DNA owner?)
it's just hard to believe that only ONE person was responsible for all the staging,too many elements and most contradict each other.

madeleine,
I doubt very much that one person was responsible. Definitely two and possibly three, or more.

Corporate backup is possible it would explain a lot, but then not all the inexplicable mistakes.

Unless the primary crime scene was simply cleaned up and restaged, then I reckon JonBenet was moved somewhere else possibly the basement or most likley another bedroom.

The possibilities are thankfully limited, in terms of combinations, depending on what your favorite RDI is, assuming JDI, and JonBenet is in his bedroom, then possibly she is placed into her own bed, which is staged to fake some scenario. Then this is revised with her being moved down to the basement so JR can buy time to flee interstate using his private plane?

I reckon the pink nightgown and barbie doll are the residue from a prior staging. I make the assumption that the stager wanted these removed from their context e.g. some bedroom scene.

These are the big clues : pink nightgown, barbie doll, and the size-12 underwear, and possibly the white blanket, which are all totally out of context even for a staging, not unless you buy the undoing idea?

What intruder requires a blanket?




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[Toltec]

Patsy states that the last time she saw JAR's suitcase was in the boiler room. That is why John claims it was not supposed to be there...he did not place the suitcase in the train room.

If Burke were to attempt to open the wine cellar latch...he would most likely have used the suitcase when it was in the boiler room. Again, John or Patsy found JonBenet dead in the wine cellar with the suitcase next to the wc door. They move it.

It was Burke's Hi-Tec bootprint found in the wine cellar.

Perhaps Burke grabs JonBenet's blanket off her bed, balls it up and carries it down to the basement, not knowing that there was a barbie doll, barbie nightgown tangled in the blanket.

 

[UKGuy]

Patsy states that the last time she saw JAR's suitcase was in the boiler room. That is why John claims it was not supposed to be there...he did not place the suitcase in the train room.

If Burke were to attempt to open the wine cellar latch...he would most likely have used the suitcase when it was in the boiler room. Again, John or Patsy found JonBenet dead in the wine cellar with the suitcase next to the wc door. They move it.

It was Burke's Hi-Tec bootprint found in the wine cellar.

Perhaps Burke grabs JonBenet's blanket off her bed, balls it up and carries it down to the basement, not knowing that there was a barbie doll, barbie nightgown tangled in the blanket.

Toltec,

Possibly but given the prior staging details, wipe down, redressing, cleanup, ransom note etc, this scenario presents some difficulties.

I have a BDI that is reasonably consistent with the known evidence, if I get the time to do a decent outline I'll post it for review.

I've never taken BDI too seriously, particularly the age factor, simply because BPD appeared to investigate as if BDI was discounted. Also John and Patsy's responses in some interviews appear credible and not faked in the sense of protecting Burke over zealously.


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[Tadpole12]

Toltec,

Possibly but given the prior staging details, wipe down, redressing, cleanup, ransom note etc, this scenario presents some difficulties.

I have a BDI that is reasonably consistent with the known evidence, if I get the time to do a decent outline I'll post it for review.

I've never taken BDI too seriously, particularly the age factor, simply because BPD appeared to investigate as if BDI was discounted. Also John and Patsy's responses in some interviews appear credible and not faked in the sense of protecting Burke over zealously.


.

Heyya UKGuy.

I'm looking forward to your posting of a BDI theory.

IMO It's difficult to imagine BR as being the culprit when the observations that define a possible crime scene staging seem to be too sophisticated for a child to accomplish. Maybe easier to contemplate when including an accomplice.


The rn is written at a grade four level, yet when examinining the errors of syntax, those errors appear to be systematic, a purposeful patterning of errors and omissions that create ambiguity within the text.




http://www.standards-schmandards.com/exhibits/rix/index.php

Result of rn text

Method used: Flesch-Kincaid (English).
Flesch-Kincaid Grade level: 4.
Flesch-Kincaid Reading Ease score: 84.
The Flesch-Kincaid Reading Ease score indicates how easy a text is to read. A high score implies an easy text. In comparison comics typically score around 90 while legalese can get a score below 10.
The Flesch-Kincaid Grade level indicates the grade a person will have to have reached to be able to understand the text. E.g. a grade level of 7 means that a seventh grader will be able to understand the text.



Reed-Kellogg syntax deno, generator:
http://1aiway.com/nlp4net/services/enparser/ReedKelloggTree.aspx

 

[DeeDee249]

Patsy states that the last time she saw JAR's suitcase was in the boiler room. That is why John claims it was not supposed to be there...he did not place the suitcase in the train room.

If Burke were to attempt to open the wine cellar latch...he would most likely have used the suitcase when it was in the boiler room. Again, John or Patsy found JonBenet dead in the wine cellar with the suitcase next to the wc door. They move it.

It was Burke's Hi-Tec bootprint found in the wine cellar.

Perhaps Burke grabs JonBenet's blanket off her bed, balls it up and carries it down to the basement, not knowing that there was a barbie doll, barbie nightgown tangled in the blanket.

If you can do it safely, try to stand up ON a standard hard suitcase like that if you have one. You will see that it is impossible to do this without the suitcase falling over. How I wished LS had attempted to do this when he did his silly climb through the window. He'd have demonstrated once and for all in front of people that NO ONE can climb up on a suitcase (that is standing upright) and not have it fall over, ESPECIALLY when pushing oneself UP through a window.
NO ONE took JB's blanket off her bed. LE determined that the foot part of the bed was UNDISTURBED. Patsy AGREED that, as they looked at the photo, that there had not been a blanket on the bed. The Barbie doll was in a LARGE BOX. No WAY would anyone not know the doll was in the blanket. The doll was NOT FOUND IN THE BLANKET, but a few feet away on the floor.
There was a chair right there- if a child wanted to unlatch that door, all they had to do was stand on the chair.
BR played no part in the staging of this crime, IMO. However, this does not mean he played no part in the crime.

 

[UKGuy]

If you can do it safely, try to stand up ON a standard hard suitcase like that if you have one. You will see that it is impossible to do this without the suitcase falling over. How I wished LS had attempted to do this when he did his silly climb through the window. He'd have demonstrated once and for all in front of people that NO ONE can climb up on a suitcase (that is standing upright) and not have it fall over, ESPECIALLY when pushing oneself UP through a window.
NO ONE took JB's blanket off her bed. LE determined that the foot part of the bed was UNDISTURBED. Patsy AGREED that, as they looked at the photo, that there had not been a blanket on the bed. The Barbie doll was in a LARGE BOX. No WAY would anyone not know the doll was in the blanket. The doll was NOT FOUND IN THE BLANKET, but a few feet away on the floor.
There was a chair right there- if a child wanted to unlatch that door, all they had to do was stand on the chair.
BR played no part in the staging of this crime, IMO. However, this does not mean he played no part in the crime.

DeeDee249,

NO ONE took JB's blanket off her bed. LE determined that the foot part of the bed was UNDISTURBED. Patsy AGREED that, as they looked at the photo, that there had not been a blanket on the bed.

Well that only suggests that that scene may have been staged, who knows, Patsy is not going to say anything other than it looks undisturbed?

It goes some way to suggest that JonBenet may have been laid out in another secondary crime-scene, possibly staged, in another bedroom e.g. the guest bedroom? Hence the apparent inconsistency of some items found in the basement. That is the room was hastily cleaned and cleared out, simply by removing itmes en-masse?

The doll was NOT FOUND IN THE BLANKET, but a few feet away on the floor.

You have a source for this? If correct being found separate from JonBenet's papoose style disposition speaks even less of comfort or undoing! In the crime-scene photo below the pink nightgown, blanket, and doll appear reasonably close, adjacent to me.

Do you have an estimate for the size, length of the barbie doll?


.

 

[UKGuy]

Heyya UKGuy.

I'm looking forward to your posting of a BDI theory.

IMO It's difficult to imagine BR as being the culprit when the observations that define a possible crime scene staging seem to be too sophisticated for a child to accomplish. Maybe easier to contemplate when including an accomplice.


The rn is written at a grade four level, yet when examinining the errors of syntax, those errors appear to be systematic, a purposeful patterning of errors and omissions that create ambiguity within the text.




http://www.standards-schmandards.com/exhibits/rix/index.php

Result of rn text

Method used: Flesch-Kincaid (English).
Flesch-Kincaid Grade level: 4.
Flesch-Kincaid Reading Ease score: 84.
The Flesch-Kincaid Reading Ease score indicates how easy a text is to read. A high score implies an easy text. In comparison comics typically score around 90 while legalese can get a score below 10.
The Flesch-Kincaid Grade level indicates the grade a person will have to have reached to be able to understand the text. E.g. a grade level of 7 means that a seventh grader will be able to understand the text.



Reed-Kellogg syntax deno, generator:
http://1aiway.com/nlp4net/services/enparser/ReedKelloggTree.aspx

Tadpole12,

I'm looking forward to your posting of a BDI theory.

Well its likely to be an outline, without bells and whistles, hopefully matching the evidence we currently know about.

IMO It's difficult to imagine BR as being the culprit when the observations that define a possible crime scene staging seem to be too sophisticated for a child to accomplish. Maybe easier to contemplate when including an accomplice.

I've always found it difficult to visualise Burke as the suspect, since the age profile for some of JonBenet's injuries, and as you suggest the complexity of the staging, do not seem to match up?

The theory that came close was BlueCrab's Erotic Asphyxiation scenario with Burke as the suspect, but that required many unsupported assumptions, e.g. friends staying overnight, which fell down when you analyze the neck injuries and the geometry of the garrote e.g. no hair loss.


Incidentally this is one staged crime scene scenario, usually asphyxiation minus the erotic component, where undoing and preservation of family and victim reputation, are major factors in its construction.

Alas for stagers insurance companies do not pay out if Erotic Asphyxiation can be be determined, for them its classed with suicide.




.

 

[DeeDee249]

DeeDee249,

Well that only suggests that that scene may have been staged, who knows, Patsy is not going to say anything other than it looks undisturbed?

It goes some way to suggest that JonBenet may have been laid out in another secondary crime-scene, possibly staged, in another bedroom e.g. the guest bedroom? Hence the apparent inconsistency of some items found in the basement. That is the room was hastily cleaned and cleared out, simply by removing itmes en-masse?


You have a source for this? If correct being found separate from JonBenet's papoose style disposition speaks even less of comfort or undoing! In the crime-scene photo below the pink nightgown, blanket, and doll appear reasonably close, adjacent to me.

Do you have an estimate for the size, length of the barbie doll?


.

My source is a thread with photos posted right HERE a while back. The doll was a 1996 Holiday Barbie, which can be seen anywhere by Googling it. The box containing the doll can be seen in a corner of the photo. EBay always has these dolls for sale, you need not be a member to look. The doll itself is less than a foot tall, 11 1/2 inches to be exact. The box dimensions are probably approx. 12 x 15 or so. These Holiday Barbies are still available, and a new one comes out each year.
I have never seen anywhere that the barbie doll was wrapped up papoose style with her. Do you have a source for that, or is it just your impression of how the doll was found? Because Tricia's sources are impeccable, so I do not doubt that the doll was in the room, but because this photo was a crime scene photo, it was taken AFTER JB was unwrapped and brought up.
Just like the exact position of the body, the tape, and the pink nightie, only TWO people know for sure where the doll was when she was found- JR and FW, who was right behind him.

 

[DeeDee249]

DeeDee249,
You have a source for this? If correct being found separate from JonBenet's papoose style disposition speaks even less of comfort or undoing! In the crime-scene photo below the pink nightgown, blanket, and doll appear reasonably close, adjacent to me.

Do you have an estimate for the size, length of the barbie doll?


.

I don't see a doll in that photo at all.

 

[UKGuy]

I don't see a doll in that photo at all.

DeeDee249,
But you know its there, right? Patsy says so. It is my impression that the gown and doll were wrapped in the blanket. The doll is enclosed within the barbie nightgown, as per the interview.


We have Patsy reviewing the crime-scene photos.
Patsy's 1998 BPD Interview, Excerpted

...

PATSY RAMSEY: What is the pink thing?
21 TOM HANEY: We have next up, we have some
22 close-ups of the two items in 145, which is the white
23 blanket and the paint can.

...

2 TOM HANEY: would that be the blanket that was on the bed?
3 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.
4 TRIP DEMUTH: That is JonBenet's blanket on
5 her bed in her bedroom?
6 PATSY RAMSEY: I could say that, yes.
7 TRIP DEMUTH: Looking at picture 145.
8 PATSY RAMSEY: Okay. What is this pink --

...

18 TRIP DEMUTH: Our main concern is that you believe this is JonBenet's
19 blanket on her bed.
20 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.

...

1 TOM HANEY: What is it?
2 PATSY RAMSEY: It is her Barbie nightgown.
3 TOM HANEY: Is that hers or her Barbie

...

20 PATSY RAMSEY: That is a Barbie doll under
21 there.
22 TOM HANEY: It appears from the waist down

Patsy identifies the pink barbie nightgown, the barbie doll, and white blanket in the wine-cellar crime-scene photos. In another post you said:

NO ONE took JB's blanket off her bed. LE determined that the foot part of the bed was UNDISTURBED. Patsy AGREED that, as they looked at the photo, that there had not been a blanket on the bed.

Yet above Patsy identifies the white blanket as being sourced from JonBenet's bed, or am I interpreting the questions and answers incorrectly. How can Patsy's statements be reconciled?



.

 

[DeeDee249]

DeeDee249,
But you know its there, right? Patsy says so. It is my impression that the gown and doll were wrapped in the blanket. The doll is enclosed within the barbie nightgown, as per the interview.


We have Patsy reviewing the crime-scene photos.
Patsy's 1998 BPD Interview, Excerpted

Patsy identifies the pink barbie nightgown, the barbie doll, and white blanket in the wine-cellar crime-scene photos. In another post you said:

Yet above Patsy identifies the white blanket as being sourced from JonBenet's bed, or am I interpreting the questions and answers incorrectly. How can Patsy's statements be reconciled?



.

The white blanket IS the one from JB's bed- but it was NOT taken from her bed. If you look at the photos of JB's bed, is is very apparent that NO blanket could have been pulled from the bed and left the bottom of that bed in perfect condition. Anyone can try this at home. Make your bed neatly, complete with bottom and top sheet, blanket, and comforter or bedspread. Now- try to pull just the BLANKET off the bed by itself. You will see that if you do this, the rest of the bedding will be pulled off a bit too, or mussed up a bit, except the bottom sheet. The police agree that there had been no blanket on that bed. So did Patsy, eventually. Yet, if you have been following this case for a while, you know that JB wet her bed all the time and the blanket was laundered in the basement. So, while the white blanket was the one from her bed, it was not on her bed at the time it was taken, but rather taken from the basement dryer.

I believe the doll was there, but there is nothing that proves it was wrapped up with her inside the blanket. JR would have seen it, as he unwrapped her, as would FW. I am not saying it couldn't have been there, but I do not see any evidence of it in that photo. The box is rather large, for such a small doll. You'd see the outline of the box under the blanket. The doll that Tricia's sources described (and what was in that photo posted months ago) was of a doll in a clear cellophane box.
Neither FW nor JR was carrying a doll or doll in a box up from the basement, therefore it was left behind there to be listed among evidence from that room by LE. Patsy's statements as she was being shown the photos by LE do not reflect HOW she was being shown the photos. Were they pointing items out to her as she looked? Was she pointing them out to LE? Either way, it does not conflict with my opinion that the doll was not IN the blanket, but rather near the blanket, but it could also have been IN the blanket if JR himself opened the blanket, tossing the box aside before he picked her up.

Bottom line- the doll was in the room, but not necessarily in the blanket with her. And the blanket was hers, but not taken from her bed. It as pulled from the dryer.

 

[SunnieRN]

I don't see a doll in that photo at all.

There is what looks like a stuffed dog there. If you look to the right of the white blanket, near the top of the blanket, you can make out the dog face.

 

[UKGuy]

The white blanket IS the one from JB's bed- but it was NOT taken from her bed. If you look at the photos of JB's bed, is is very apparent that NO blanket could have been pulled from the bed and left the bottom of that bed in perfect condition. Anyone can try this at home. Make your bed neatly, complete with bottom and top sheet, blanket, and comforter or bedspread. Now- try to pull just the BLANKET off the bed by itself. You will see that if you do this, the rest of the bedding will be pulled off a bit too, or mussed up a bit, except the bottom sheet. The police agree that there had been no blanket on that bed. So did Patsy, eventually. Yet, if you have been following this case for a while, you know that JB wet her bed all the time and the blanket was laundered in the basement. So, while the white blanket was the one from her bed, it was not on her bed at the time it was taken, but rather taken from the basement dryer.

I believe the doll was there, but there is nothing that proves it was wrapped up with her inside the blanket. JR would have seen it, as he unwrapped her, as would FW. I am not saying it couldn't have been there, but I do not see any evidence of it in that photo. The box is rather large, for such a small doll. You'd see the outline of the box under the blanket. The doll that Tricia's sources described (and what was in that photo posted months ago) was of a doll in a clear cellophane box.
Neither FW nor JR was carrying a doll or doll in a box up from the basement, therefore it was left behind there to be listed among evidence from that room by LE. Patsy's statements as she was being shown the photos by LE do not reflect HOW she was being shown the photos. Were they pointing items out to her as she looked? Was she pointing them out to LE? Either way, it does not conflict with my opinion that the doll was not IN the blanket, but rather near the blanket, but it could also have been IN the blanket if JR himself opened the blanket, tossing the box aside before he picked her up.

Bottom line- the doll was in the room, but not necessarily in the blanket with her. And the blanket was hers, but not taken from her bed. It as pulled from the dryer.

DeeDee249,

So, while the white blanket was the one from her bed, it was not on her bed at the time it was taken, but rather taken from the basement dryer.

It could come from there. Just as the pink nightgown is suggested to have also originated from there. So the following is simply past tense phrasing?

2 TOM HANEY: would that be the blanket that was on the bed?
3 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.
4 TRIP DEMUTH: That is JonBenet's blanket on
5 her bed in her bedroom?
6 PATSY RAMSEY: I could say that, yes.

I believe the doll was there, but there is nothing that proves it was wrapped up with her inside the blanket. JR would have seen it, as he unwrapped her, as would FW.

Fair enough, but with all this stuff lying about the wine-cellar floor, you have to wonder why Fleet White missed it all, on his first visit?

There is one anomally, maybe its a sequence feature. Patsy states she can see a doll beneath the pink nightgown. And Tom Haney corroborates this, so it is not mistaken semantics or a picture on the nightgown.

Yet the image you refer to has a barbie doll pictured lying in a box, with no nightgown or blanket to be seen anywhere?

Was there more than one doll discovered in the wine-cellar?


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[DeeDee249]

DeeDee249,

It could come from there. Just as the pink nightgown is suggested to have also originated from there. So the following is simply past tense phrasing?



Fair enough, but with all this stuff lying about the wine-cellar floor, you have to wonder why Fleet White missed it all, on his first visit?

There is one anomally, maybe its a sequence feature. Patsy states she can see a doll beneath the pink nightgown. And Tom Haney corroborates this, so it is not mistaken semantics or a picture on the nightgown.

Yet the image you refer to has a barbie doll pictured lying in a box, with no nightgown or blanket to be seen anywhere?

Was there more than one doll discovered in the wine-cellar?


.

Past tense phrasing.

There was ONLY one doll discovered, as far as I know. The photo I am referring to DOES also show the blanket and pink nightie. You would have seen this photo too, it wasn't that long ago. If anyone has that photo, or remembers which thread it is on, please post it.

 

[joeskidbeck]

Past tense phrasing.

There was ONLY one doll discovered, as far as I know. The photo I am referring to DOES also show the blanket and pink nightie. You would have seen this photo too, it wasn't that long ago. If anyone has that photo, or remembers which thread it is on, please post it.

DeeDee, here is the link to the thread which has photos of the Barbie doll. She's not in a box though, she is lying on the wc floor.
Becky

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=116359"]What's in this cellar room photo? - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]

 

[DeeDee249]

DeeDee, here is the link to the thread which has photos of the Barbie doll. She's not in a box though, she is lying on the wc floor.
Becky

What's in this cellar room photo? - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

Thanks for posting that, Beck. That is the exact photo I was talking about. To me, she looks like she is in a BOX on the floor, and I recall discussions about that photo when it was posted (maybe it was on FFJm, it was posted there too) about the reflections caused by the cellophane of the box. I have seen that doll in person, as I am sure many of of have. Not that uncommon on eBay- there is one in a local antique store near me, too. She comes in a white box with the entire front of clear cellophane. Too bad the image is not clear; it could be the doll in her own box, or it could be the doll in a plain white box with tissue, or it could be the doll lying on something white.
But if you have seen that doll in person or on eBay, it does look like that is Holiday Barbie 1996 doll.