The Wine Cellar
- Thread starter cynic
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DeeDee249,
I agree. Presumably her normal sized underwear was not removed simply because they bore witness to normal, run of the mill, biological events.
That is urine, or fecal staining etc, given the other pair lying upstairs in the bathroom, should present no evidential problems.
Whereas blood, semen, fibers, saliva etc would represent a problem and be required to be dealt with.
I agree, but its seems likely they were stained with either blood and/or semen. The missing size-6 underwear may be related to the red turleneck, in that it was washed out along with the removal of JonBenet's size-6 underwear, since the latter evidenced blood-staining, which could not be washed out?
.
I am not sure just how the red turtleneck is part of this case, but I feel it has to be involved somehow simply because Patsy lied about it. But I wonder if it had blood or semen on it, why not remove it like the panties?
According to Steve Thomas, the turtleneck was wet...and balled up in JonBenet's bathroom counter.
What raised a red flag to me is when Patsy was shown a picture of the red turtleneck and she quickly changes the subject to a crown found on the counter. She breaks down crying...in essence to get off the subject of the turtleneck.
Yeah...she did that a lot. The Rs were masters of changing the subject in all their interviews. And the buffoons questioning them simply dropped the ball, never seeming to be able to bring the line of questioning back to an important topic.
madeleine
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ita,makes you :banghead:
but Kane was close and LW sensed it and that's why it turned into a circus
the cops should never have agreed to that format.never.they allowed the R lawyers to argue "hey,we agreed to come and help YOU out ,to give you OUR "leads",we agreed this isn't a 'cops questionning suspects' interview"
ridiculous,they made fools outta themselves (LE)
the 97 interviews are a bad bad BAD joke
at least some new info comes up in the 98 ones
and the last ones show exactly how hard they needed NOT to answer certain questions
runsdeep
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he was a salesman and she was a pageant queen, they had the gift of gab. is amazing how far people go in life based on their words even though those words dont match the behaviors. the behaviors are the truth.
DeDee
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cynic has done a wonderful job of investigating the wine cellar. I'm bumping this post rather than repost the pictures.
I realize this may not be the best source:
I don't think FW took a flashlight with him to find the wine. However, he most likely found the light switch or was told where to find it. That is mere speculation on my part.
The 911 call, allegedly placed by FW, from the R home on the night of the 23rd during the Rs Christmas party, the same night when FW went to the windowless room retrieving more wine, has me wondering if maybe JonBenét's life was in danger due to a sex game gone wrong that night and there was a need for Emergency care only JB became conscious and sufficiently recovered for Susan Stine to send the responding officer on his way. If so, the game did go too far on Christmas night.
I realize this may not be the best source:
I don't think FW took a flashlight with him to find the wine. However, he most likely found the light switch or was told where to find it. That is mere speculation on my part.
The 911 call, allegedly placed by FW, from the R home on the night of the 23rd during the Rs Christmas party, the same night when FW went to the windowless room retrieving more wine, has me wondering if maybe JonBenét's life was in danger due to a sex game gone wrong that night and there was a need for Emergency care only JB became conscious and sufficiently recovered for Susan Stine to send the responding officer on his way. If so, the game did go too far on Christmas night.
In 1997, PR says the always latched the cellar door, but a year later Ramnesia sets in and says she would not have specifically necessarily locked it.
Specifically, necessarily??????
Ah yes, but the ever so courteous intruder/pedophile/kidnapper/murderer took the time out of his busy schedule to latch it?
(Also, the small pivoting peg is not readily obvious, nor would it by likely that someone would expect something that archaic as a means of securing a door.)
TT: Okay. Um, that, that cellar door, that peg on that, does that have to be down to deep that door closed?
PR: Uh, well, no it will close. It, you know, it kind of sort of sticks on the carpet a little bit.
TT: Um hum.
PR: I mean, it will close, but that kind of I always kind of flipped that down just so the kids wouldnt get in there.
TT: Okay. But it doesnt the door wont open up because of the carpet without that lock down. If you leave the lock in the up position the door doesnt just swing (inaudible).
PR: No.
TT: Okay. Were you ever, you were not ever in the basement that morning before the police got there?
PR: No, I was not.
Patsy Ramsey, 1997 Interview
PATSY RAMSEY: Okay. This is back, this is what we referred to as the (inaudible) cover, these are (inaudible) painting here. When were these pictures taken, before we found JonBenet?
TRIP DEMUTH: Yes.
PATSY RAMSEY: See that door is locked there, because there is a little tab thing on there.
TOM HANEY: Is that the way it is normally secured with that, is it a block of wood?
PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-huh.
TOM HANEY: And how firmly or loosely is that attached?
PATSY RAMSEY: You mean the wood?
TOM HANEY: Yes, the wood, the block.
PATSY RAMSEY: Well, you know, it bends, you know. I mean, you have to turn it.
TOM HANEY: You have to actually apply some force?
PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
TOM HANEY: Would it be capable of falling down on its own?
PATSY RAMSEY: No, I don't know, and I wasn't always -- you know, I was hiding some Christmas presents and stuff back in there for Christmas.
TOM HANEY: Okay. Do you recall
PATSY RAMSEY: What I was going to say, I mean, after bringing the stuff up out of there after Christmas, I would not have specifically necessarily locked it because it kind of drags on the carpet.
TOM HANEY: All right.
PATSY RAMSEY: So I can't say that I personally left it neat and tidy shut and closed after I had gotten all of the toys out of there.
TOM HANEY: You said it kind of drags on the bottom of the carpet. The carpet is too high or the door is too low. How tough is it to open, I mean is it
PATSY RAMSEY: You can do it. I can do it, but you had some resistance.
TOM HANEY: Okay. Is there a spot where you couldn't open past that?
PATSY RAMSEY: No.
TOM HANEY: So if we refer to your 90 degrees to pull over, it would do that with just some effort?
PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.
Patsy Ramsey, 1998 Interview
JOHN RAMSEY: Right. I remember grabbing the handle because the door was latched because I expected it not to be latched. I reached out, flipped the latch and opened the door and immediately looked down.
LOU SMIT: And you say immediately?
JOHN RAMSEY: There was a white blanket. And I just knew that I had found her.
LOU SMIT: How were you standing in the doorway when you observed that?
JOHN RAMSEY: I was probably right there. The door pulled open. The handle was on the left side of the door and it opened this way, as I recall.
LOU SMIT: So now, I just want to get that right because when you opened the door, you could look inside the room. Is the light on or off at the time you open the door?
JOHN RAMSEY: I think it was off. I don't remember it being on. It was off.
LOU SMIT: Would you be able to see into that room if the light was off?
JOHN RAMSEY: I saw clearly, instantly. Yeah.
MIKE KANE: Okay. Now when you went around to the wine cellar door, you said you pulled at it and, I think you said that you were surprised that it was latched?
JOHN RAMSEY: I just said I remember pulling on it almost popping out of hand because it's always been open. And I don't think the latch was latched.
MIKE KANE: I think you said, (I didn't expect it to be latched.̃ Was it normally not?
JOHN RAMSEY: I'd say, I mean, the door was kind of stuck anyway, so it wasn't common to latch it.
MIKE KANE: Did that latch, and I've seen pictures of it, it was on like a pivot?
JOHN RAMSEY: It was on a block of wood.
MIKE KANE: A block of wood, but it was pivoted?
JOHN RAMSEY: Right.
MIKE KANE: Was it enough that it would fall down on its own or did you have to physically turn it?
JOHN RAMSEY: I think you had to physically turn it.
John Ramsey, 1998 Interview
The sergeant found no evidence of forced entry during a walk through the house, then went outside. A light dusting of snow and frost lay atop an earlier crusty snow in spotty patches on the grass. He saw no fresh shoe impressions, found no open doors or windows, nothing to indicate a break-in, but walking on the driveway and sidewalks left no visible prints. It was frigid, about nine degrees, and Reichenbach returned inside.
He went down into the sprawling basement and walked through it. At the far end was a white door secured at the top by a block of wood that pivoted on a screw. Reichenbach tried to open the door, stopped when he felt resistance, then returned upstairs. Reichenbach, Officer French, and one of the friends Patsy had called, Fleet White, would all check that white door in the basement during the morning, and White would even open it. They found nothing.
JonBenet: Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation, Steve Thomas, pages 19-20
Earlier, Rick French, the first police officer to respond to the mothers 911 call, had immediately searched the house for the child and for any sign of forced entry, but he found nothing. Then he read the ransom note
Perfect Murder, Perfect Town, Lawrence Schiller, page 7
When Rick French, the first officer on the scene after Patsys report of a kidnapping, later saw the spot where the body had been found, he remembered his search of the house in the early morning. In the first minutes, French, seeing from where he stood that the door was latched shut, had thought there was no need to open it. Now he was baffled by his own decision. How hard would it have been to open the door? Had JonBenét still been alive when he stood just a few feet away and decided not to open the door? The thought devastated him.
Perfect Murder, Perfect Town, Lawrence Schiller, page 21
White told the detectives that he had been there only a few minutes when he started to search the house. Alone, he went down to the basement, found some of the lights on, and started calling out JonBenéts name. It was so cluttered down therewith boxes stacked everywhere and shelves overflowing with odds and endsthat he could hardly see any open spaces where she might be. He started in Burkes train and hobby room, where he saw a suitcase sitting under a broken window. On the floor under the window, he found small pieces of glass. He placed some of them on the windowsill. Then he moved the suitcase a few feet to get a closer look at the window. White said he was sure the window was closed but unlatched. After he left the train room, he turned right, into the boiler room. At the back of the room, he said, he saw a door to what the Ramseys called the wine cellar. He turned the closed wooden latch and opened the door. The room was pitch-black, he said. He didnt enter, and he saw nothing. When he couldnt find a light switch, he closed the door and went back upstairs. He did not remember whether or not he relatched the door. Later, when White saw John Fernie, he told him that a window downstairs had been punched open. The police wondered why White had not seen JonBenéts body and later Ramsey had, since they both stood at the same spot after opening the door to the wine cellar.
Perfect Murder, Perfect Town, Lawrence Schiller, page 44
He then described going to the little cellar room on the subsequent trip downstairs with Fleet White, unlatching and opening the white door. He snapped his fingers and said, It was instant, I mean, as soon as I opened the door I saw the white blanket. . . and I knew what was up. She was on her back on the floor with the white blanket folded around her, her arms were tied, and there was a piece of black tape over her lips, he said, and her head was cocked to one side.
The door opens outward, so he would have had to step back or aside before moving through. He did not say he saw the blanket after turning on the light but instantly. Fleet White had stood in that same doorway that morning and could see nothing in the windowless darkness. I had always considered that Ramsey might have known something before he entered, and with this new admission of going to the basement earlier, I was sure of it. By the time he went back downstairs with Fleet White, I thought he knew exactly where the body was.
JonBenet: Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation, Steve Thomas, pages 192-193
We conducted tedious re-creations in the small room where the body was found, duplicating lighting conditions with the help of a photographic expert with sensitive meters and placing a white cotton blanket where JonBenét had lain.
John Ramsey had said he spotted the blanket instantly when he opened the door. It was as dark as a coal mine at midnight in there, and to open the door, he would have had to step back to a point where a blind corner would have blocked his view. I stood where Ramsey had been and saw only a wall of impenetrable blackness.
Lou Smit: I can see in there.
Even with the light on, Detective Gosage said, I had to step completely into the cellar and look around the corner to my left to see the blanket on the floor.
JonBenet: Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation, Steve Thomas, page 220
Ramsey stuck to his original story of seeing the girls body clearly and instantly when he opened the cellar door and for the first time said he did not turn on the light. Our tests and the testimony of Fleet White had convinced us that it was impossible to see anything in the darkness, particularly when the view was blocked by a jutting interior corner.
JonBenet: Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation, Steve Thomas, page 361
(It does appear to be extremely dark in the room, especially when the door is partially open and someone is standing at the entrance as depicted in the fourth picture below.
The last picture shows that you do have to step inside and look down and to left to have any chance of seeing the body.)
CASKU further said that placing JonBenét in the basement was consistent with a parent not wanting to put the body outside in the winter elements. The familiarity with and relocking of the peg on the white cellar door were noted. The ligatures, they said, indicated staging rather than control, and the garrote was used from behind so the killer could avoid eye contact, typical of someone who cares for the victim.
JonBenet: Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation, Steve Thomas, page 243
It was time to let Sergeant Wickman confront the Intruder Theory.
The prominent red flag in the big picture is the utter illogic of such an intruders actions and behaviors, Wickman said. For one to believe an intruder committed this crime, one would also have to believe all of these things. Enumerating conflicting points, Wickman asked, Would an intruder:
Have taken the time to close JonBenéts bedroom door, which Patsy said had been found closed?
Have taken the time to relatch the obscure cellar door peg that police and Fleet White found in the locked position?
Have placed JonBenét beneath a blanket and taken the care to place her favorite pink nightgown with her?
...
Have wiped and/or re-dressed JonBenét after the assault and murder?
Have fed her pineapple, then kept her alive in the house for a couple of hours while she digested it? (That same fresh-cut pineapple that was consistent, right down to the rind, with a bowl on the breakfast table that had the print of Patsy Ramseys right middle finger on it.)
...
Have been able to navigate silently through a dark, confusing, and occupied house without a sound in the quiet of Christmas night?
...
Be a stranger who could write a note with characteristics so similar to those of Patsy Ramseys writing that numerous experts would be unable to eliminate her as the author?
...
Have been so unprepared for this most high-risk of crimes that the individuals representing a small foreign faction failed to bring the necessary equipment to facilitate the crime?
Have been able to murder the child in such a violent fashion but so quietly that her parents and brother slept through the event, despite a scream loud enough to be heard by a neighbor across the street?
...
And, Wickman pointed out, given the medical opinions of prior vaginal trauma, the night of the murder must not have been the intruders first visit, unless the vaginal abuse and the murder were done by different people.
JonBenet: Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation, Steve Thomas, pages 346-347
elannia
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I am confused about the door to the basement. I know there are two ways to go down to the basement and I looked on Jamesons site and I know that the light switch was opposite wall of the door. Does anyone have more links or photos of the different entries to the basement? Im not understanding the steps leading up to the door where the light switch is in her photos
midwest mama
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The WC had to be the place with the most forensic evidence directly related to the crime, yet I have had a tendency to simply envision that room as nearly void of much else except what we've seen in drawings and re-enactments and reports of JR finding JB's body there.
Here is a good link to go back over when you have time for it: http://web.dailycamera.com/extra/ramsey/1997/09/29-2.html
The dialogue clearly states that not only FW, but John Fernie went to the basement with JR. And that there were TWO blankets in the Wine Cellar. The evidence lists show that there were many items recovered from the WC, including the partially opened gifts that are shown in one of the photos that KK posted some time ago on FFJ which seem to show a holiday Barbie doll. Yet, there are no specific reports of what was in the FAO Schwartz packages.
Another quirky thing in the search warrant, is the Ransom Note showing being signed off as "SBJC, not SBTC". Would a typo be possible? I think it was JR who once commented that the note might have actually been signed "SBJC".
And the purple ornament? Which would have been from that year's color pallette which Patsy said she came up with for decorating. When the trees were moved from that room earlier by the Pugh family and placed around the home for decorating, they must have been stripped of ornaments and then freshly decorated for each room annually? PR said she chose purple for Christmas 1996, so why should a purple ornament from the main floor Christmas tree, probably put on AFTER it was taken from the wine cellar to the main floor, be back down inside the wine cellar to be collected in a search warrant? :scared:
Here is a good link to go back over when you have time for it: http://web.dailycamera.com/extra/ramsey/1997/09/29-2.html
The dialogue clearly states that not only FW, but John Fernie went to the basement with JR. And that there were TWO blankets in the Wine Cellar. The evidence lists show that there were many items recovered from the WC, including the partially opened gifts that are shown in one of the photos that KK posted some time ago on FFJ which seem to show a holiday Barbie doll. Yet, there are no specific reports of what was in the FAO Schwartz packages.
Another quirky thing in the search warrant, is the Ransom Note showing being signed off as "SBJC, not SBTC". Would a typo be possible? I think it was JR who once commented that the note might have actually been signed "SBJC".
And the purple ornament? Which would have been from that year's color pallette which Patsy said she came up with for decorating. When the trees were moved from that room earlier by the Pugh family and placed around the home for decorating, they must have been stripped of ornaments and then freshly decorated for each room annually? PR said she chose purple for Christmas 1996, so why should a purple ornament from the main floor Christmas tree, probably put on AFTER it was taken from the wine cellar to the main floor, be back down inside the wine cellar to be collected in a search warrant? :scared:
questfortrue
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I haven't noted two ways into the basement. But here is a link to blueprints of the home. http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showthread.php?9775-Ramsey-house-plans-and-exterior-photos AFAIK, the only entry to the basement was through a door off the kitchen.
What I'd like to know is who are those presents in the WC for? It's already Dec 26, the Rs have seen and delivered gifts to all their friends, and John has already taken all the gifts for extended family and loaded them on the plane for the trip to the lake. The Rs will be at the lake for several days, then return and leave for the Big Red Boat. So those presents are going to still be sitting there the first week of January?
My theory is JR did not take the gifts to the plane that day, and that the gifts in the WC were meant for the lake. Late Christmas night the goes down to retrieve the gifts and finds them partially opened. She drags JBR out of bed and takes her to the WC to confront her. It is here that she snaps and cracks JB over the head. The rest is pretty obvious.
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My theory is JR did not take the gifts to the plane that day, and that the gifts in the WC were meant for the lake. Late Christmas night the goes down to retrieve the gifts and finds them partially opened. She drags JBR out of bed and takes her to the WC to confront her. It is here that she snaps and cracks JB over the head. The rest is pretty obvious.
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elannia
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IIRC, if you are coming down the spiral stairs and go down into the butlers pantry and back up and around this also leads you to the basement stairs. But I had seen this on PMPT, when LS and the detectives are in the house and going on the case. The way from the spiral stairs shows them arriving to the basement stairs but the door swings out the oppisite way. Then it shows them going through the kitchen and to the basement that way. Please watch it on youtube(part 19) and let me know whatcha think
DeDee
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While your hypothesis is plausible, especially because of JRs odd trip in the middle of Christmas Day when he goes to the airport arriving back home in time to freshen and head to the White's party.
My thoughts on the gifts seen in the basement wrapped in FAO Swartz gift wrapping is that those presents are for Burke's January birthday. He was 9yo turning 10yo in 1997. One box allegedly had a set of Lincoln logs or something similar.
There is a photo that has puzzled me. It was obviously taken first thing on Christmas morning because JonBenét and her mom's bicycles are pictured along with unwrapped gifts. You can see the windows in the background. It is dark outside. The part that bothers me is that the Christmas tree lights are not turned on and burning brightly. Maybe I am the only one who leaves the Christmas tree lights turned on for Santa on Christmas Eve. That way when the kids wake to see their gifts; the tree lights twinkle in the pictures.
I am reminded of the detectives questioning of Patsy about the likelihood of her snapping a picture if JB was doing something "cutesy" [in the laundry room].
I also left my Christmas tree lights on all night Christmas Eve-for Santa, yes, but mostly because it was too hard to reach the plug once the presents were placed under it. I also wanted the tree to be all lit Christmas morning. But not everyone does this. It might not have occurred to Patsy to turn the lights on, once the kids came down and saw the presents. And some people I know only turn the tree lights on in the evening. So the tree lights being off aren't really all that unusual. This heartbreaking photo isn't a "staged" photo- it is spontaneous. A happy little girl joyously posing with her presents! 48 hours later she was on an autopsy table.
DeDee
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Greetings, elannia. I will attempt to lead the way; hopefully, without too much confusion. Using the link to the floor plans that questfortrue kindly provided, look at the first floor. Start at the front door. Enter the foyer, before reaching the kitchen area, the stairs are on the right. Notice the thin red line that forms a right angle on the schematic. Where the two red lines of the right angle meet is where the basement door is located. That is the only basement door; however, the stairs are accessible from two directions: 1) from the butler's pantry labeled lower hall and 2) from the first floor foyer. The light switch is labeled on the opposite wall from the door.
At 01:53, the detective pops up into the foyer from the basement using those stairs. He dashes across the kitchen floor and at 01:58, he turns right at the hallway and goes to the spiral staircase.
At 05:15, they are walking through the kitchen. At 06:34, they are in the kitchen, facing the front door.
A most eerie fact is that JonBenét's lifeless body is in the wine cellar while her mother, Patsy, sits in the solarium directly over the wine cellar.
[video=youtu;aOeWMSF62IM]http://youtu.be/aOeWMSF62IM[/video]
elannia
Active Member
Thanks so much. The stairs from jamesons photos confused me, because you walk up the steps and the light switch is on the right(shows a door on the left) but there is a door straight ahead (light switch is on the right door on the left and a door straight ahead walking up the steps) is that photo coming through the kitchen(foyer)?
elannia
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Hey Elannia,
This should clarify things...
Thanks
I was confused because of the door straight ahead. But I get it now... and also in the pic the light switch is up from the railing whereas in the movie it was right behind the door.questfortrue
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This photo of the blanket in the wc has been posted earlier in this thread, but Im reposting another wider version of it which was grabbed by Why-Nut from the CourtTV production. I enhanced the background shadows only slightly to bring out the junk in the room and to bring out the perspective in relationship to the placement of the doll. The wider photo shows the floor in a little better detail and portrays the description given by DeDee as to the awful place JBs body was left. In the one photo of the doll one can see the large paint can in the top of the photo, slightly to the left of center. That paint can also shows up quite clearly in the wider version of the blanket photo.
Third picture scanned is from Kolars book, of at least some of the presents discussed with PR in 1998. The Lego set shown was to be for BRs birthday in January. (I think its the model 6991 lego system monorail transport and its not wrapped up at all.) JBs body would be to the left (looking at photo) of these toys.
For me, the doll left on the floor seemed a haphazard placement, not a comforting gesture like being wrapped papoose-like in the blanket, more like it had been just thrown in there or dropped by someone.
Third picture scanned is from Kolars book, of at least some of the presents discussed with PR in 1998. The Lego set shown was to be for BRs birthday in January. (I think its the model 6991 lego system monorail transport and its not wrapped up at all.) JBs body would be to the left (looking at photo) of these toys.
For me, the doll left on the floor seemed a haphazard placement, not a comforting gesture like being wrapped papoose-like in the blanket, more like it had been just thrown in there or dropped by someone.