Theories On What Happened to Caylee Part #4

[Theonly1]

As I was woken from peacefully sleeping in the chair last night and told to go to bed, I then laid in bed for 2 hours, listening to Mr. Theonly1 snore, and thought about this case.

I was thinking about what GA allegedly saw Casey and Caylee wearing on June 16th (Casey in the gray pants with cream colored blouse) and Caylee in the outfit that she was NOT found with). I started wondering about the gray pants and them allegedly being found in the sunfire and washed by Cindy (thereby proving they were stinky).

Follow me on this for a minute:

1. Casey was seen on the Blockbuster video surveillance camera on June 16th NOT wearing the outfit George said he saw her in mid-afternoon.

2. Caylee was found with clothing that was NOT the clothing GA alleges she was wearing on June 16th.

So, either Casey and Caylee BOTH changed clothes or GA is mis-remembering or misstating the facts. WHY would he do this?

I can "buy" that Casey wore the nice gray dress pants to put on a front for George that she was going to "work". But the outfit she was wearing at Blockbuster was absolutely not a "work" outfit and not what George said she was wearing.

Could Casey have changed clothes for the benefit of hanging out with TonyL? Maybe. But she would have likely MILKED the "I was at work" scenario and shown up at Tony's wearing the "work" outfit and then changed into the casual clothes (thereby leaving the work outfit at his apartment with her bags and not in the backseat of the sunfire). So, WHY were the gray pants left in the sunfire? We know that the decomp would NOT have been runny and staining her clothes on June 16 if she had just killed Caylee. Further, if blood was of a concern (i.e., changed the clothes due them becoming bloody) then blood would have been found on the clothes because it is a MUCH harder substance to totally remove from miscroscopic examination.

So, I am thinking that George simply had it wrong or did not see Casey and Caylee on the 16th. Why?

I think poor Caylee was killed on the 15th and into the early wee hours of the 16th. Why? Because items of convenience from the bedrooms were found with the body (the Pooh blanket, clothes she had on from the 15th in my opinion, the hamper liner, etc., the heart sticker (doubt that was from Tony's home).

Cindy has stated on record that SHE did NOT see Caylee and Casey on June 16th but she "heard them breathing". HUH? I don't know of any house with a small toddler who would CLOSE THE DOOR to the child's bedroom (or the bedroom of the mother if toddler was sleeping with Mom). I can simply envisage Cindy A. pausing outside a locked door (speculation) and saying that she "heard them breathing". It is such a strange damn comment to me. Why pause outside a closed door? Because that door was LOCKED perhaps? Perhaps locked after a blow-up fight on June 15th that NOBODY wants to mention to LE?


I'm speculating here but I don't think George saw either of his "girls" on the 16th.

I think Casey wore the "dress" pants when she and TonyL. went to interview and look for apartments (or something). And maybe she wore them the next day she dumped Caylee and spilled some decomp on the pants or was simply grossed out by the action and put the stinky pants in the car (i.e., not at Tony's and not back in her luggage as it was TOO GROSS).

Then you ask, how would GA know about the gray pants to tell LE that was the last outfit he saw Casey wearing? Well, that was the outfit left in the car in which Cindy washed!

The devil is in the details...

 

[BondJamesBond]

The devil is in the details...

*snipped*
Actually, the devil is in the OC Jail :devil:

Very interesting post, Theonly 1. Could use a thread of its own.

:twocents: Casey may have simply kept the gray slacks in the Pontiac to help her pull of the "I'm just gettin' in from work" thing more easily under any circumstance she wanted/needed (e.g. arriving @ Tony's, arriving @ G&C's, leaving G&C's, etc.)

If you're interested, I posted on the "6/9 vs. 6/15" thread some thoughts supporting why IMHO George's account of Casey & Caylee leaving was probably told from his memory of 6/9. Per my comment above re: slacks...methinks that was prolly a pretty typical "I'm going to work" outfit...she used it plenty of times for this purpose.

Consider that the slacks were there in the Pontiac as of 6/27. We don't know what their adventures held in store for them between 6/16-6/27. IMHO, Casey just used them to fool Tony as-needed closer to 6/27.

 

[Lanie]

I didn't know whether to put this in the GVS thread, Questions thread, or the Theory thread. Opted for Theories.

I was reading through some GVS transcripts and came across this part where Mark Fuhrman is discussing KC text messages from July 16th.
I don't understand how he comes to the conclusion he does. He feels the body was moved. Why? For one, his math is wrong when he counts back 32 days from the 16th. When I count back, I come to the 14th. How does he arrive at his conclusion that the body was placed in the trunk after GA saw it on the 24th? For some reason he thinks KC's text stating that Caylee has been missing for 32 days supports that her body was moved between the 24th and 30th?
Sorry to bring up an old show but I want to understand how he arrives at this since he is an investigator and should be able to give good insight. If anyone can explain his thought process, please do.

VAN SUSTEREN: Mark, as you go through these text messages, what do you think?
MARK FUHRMAN, FORMER LAPD HOMICIDE DETECTIVE: Well, I think the most disturbing one, Great, for Casey Anthony, as she says on the morning of the 16th, Caylee has been missing for 32 days.

That means that the child has been missing, and we know the child is dead. That places the time of death squarely on June 16. There is no doubt now that that is the date of the death, and this is a corroboration.

And now you can go from that timeline, the 16th, and start putting together the body, the body that was already in the putrification stage of decomposition, was placed in that vehicle after George Anthony saw it on the 24th.

So between the 24th and the 30th, the child was moved from its original location after death. That's what the most important in this text message is to me.

Link to transcript 01/22/09:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,481851,00.html?sPage=fnc/ontherecord/caylee

I agree, this interview with MF left me thinking, "huh?"
I also wonder. The 31 days seem so emphatic. It somewhat implies she was counting the days since the last time she saw Caylee. Counting as normal people do, this does put the date at June 14th. The only explanation I have been able to come up with is she wasn't counting the days, and she figured it had been about a month since she killed Caylee , mistakenly thought there were 31 days in June, and said the '31 days' to sound more dramatic.
As far as George, I don't believe he saw them on June 16th. I refer to it as 'he lied', but I don't know if it was all that nefarious. Let's face it, these people stuck to June 9th as the day Caylee went missing until the Father's Day video was found, and even then, there ended up being a spat between Cindy and Yuri, because Cindy wouldn't get on the ball and verify with her mother it was in fact June 15th. IMO, a person would think this distraught grandmother would, when reminded with the fact she visited her father on Father's Day with the missing child, at least look at a calender, and have a memory it was actually Father's Day, June 15th!!! But I digress... Because of them being so screwed up on the dates, I do think it's possible George remembers Casey and Caylee leaving on some day when he was watching the news/food channel, just not the day in question. It's also just as possible, because of the bizarre behavior by this family, he made the whole thing up.
JMO
Lanie

 

[Theonly1]

*snipped*
Actually, the devil is in the OC Jail :devil:

Very interesting post, Theonly 1. Could use a thread of its own.

:twocents: Casey may have simply kept the gray slacks in the Pontiac to help her pull of the "I'm just gettin' in from work" thing more easily under any circumstance she wanted/needed (e.g. arriving @ Tony's, arriving @ G&C's, leaving G&C's, etc.)

If you're interested, I posted on the "6/9 vs. 6/15" thread some thoughts supporting why IMHO George's account of Casey & Caylee leaving was probably told from his memory of 6/9. Per my comment above re: slacks...methinks that was prolly a pretty typical "I'm going to work" outfit...she used it plenty of times for this purpose.

Consider that the slacks were there in the Pontiac as of 6/27. We don't know what their adventures held in store for them between 6/16-6/27. IMHO, Casey just used them to fool Tony as-needed closer to 6/27.

Yes, Bond, but GA was batting 0% on his recollection compared to the facts as I know them. If he was going "by memory" of what Casey wore but got Caylee's outfit correct that would be 50%.

It just seems too "pat" to me that the clothes and items we hear about are the ones found in the car!

Even Casey makes mention to LE that when Caylee allegedly called on July 14th and spoke to Casey (yes, I know it was a blatant lie) that Caylee mentioned her book (like the video). Casey knew full well (in my opinion) that she dumped that book with Caylee (and the other stuff she had with her from Father's Day left in the trunk) and incorporated it into her story because she knew she had to place those items with Zenaida!

I would even bet that Caylee's shoes will factor into this somehow because wasn't Casey mentioning that Caylee was talking about her shoes on the non-existent July 14th call?

 

[Steely Dan]

As I was woken from peacefully sleeping in the chair last night and told to go to bed, I then laid in bed for 2 hours, listening to Mr. Theonly1 snore, and thought about this case.

I was thinking about what GA allegedly saw Casey and Caylee wearing on June 16th (Casey in the gray pants with cream colored blouse) and Caylee in the outfit that she was NOT found with). I started wondering about the gray pants and them allegedly being found in the sunfire and washed by Cindy (thereby proving they were stinky).

Follow me on this for a minute:

1. Casey was seen on the Blockbuster video surveillance camera on June 16th NOT wearing the outfit George said he saw her in mid-afternoon.

2. Caylee was found with clothing that was NOT the clothing GA alleges she was wearing on June 16th.

So, either Casey and Caylee BOTH changed clothes or GA is mis-remembering or misstating the facts. WHY would he do this?

I can "buy" that Casey wore the nice gray dress pants to put on a front for George that she was going to "work". But the outfit she was wearing at Blockbuster was absolutely not a "work" outfit and not what George said she was wearing.

Could Casey have changed clothes for the benefit of hanging out with TonyL? Maybe. But she would have likely MILKED the "I was at work" scenario and shown up at Tony's wearing the "work" outfit and then changed into the casual clothes (thereby leaving the work outfit at his apartment with her bags and not in the backseat of the sunfire). So, WHY were the gray pants left in the sunfire? We know that the decomp would NOT have been runny and staining her clothes on June 16 if she had just killed Caylee. Further, if blood was of a concern (i.e., changed the clothes due them becoming bloody) then blood would have been found on the clothes because it is a MUCH harder substance to totally remove from miscroscopic examination.

So, I am thinking that George simply had it wrong or did not see Casey and Caylee on the 16th. Why?

I think poor Caylee was killed on the 15th and into the early wee hours of the 16th. Why? Because items of convenience from the bedrooms were found with the body (the Pooh blanket, clothes she had on from the 15th in my opinion, the hamper liner, etc., the heart sticker (doubt that was from Tony's home).

Cindy has stated on record that SHE did NOT see Caylee and Casey on June 16th but she "heard them breathing". HUH? I don't know of any house with a small toddler who would CLOSE THE DOOR to the child's bedroom (or the bedroom of the mother if toddler was sleeping with Mom). I can simply envisage Cindy A. pausing outside a locked door (speculation) and saying that she "heard them breathing". It is such a strange damn comment to me. Why pause outside a closed door? Because that door was LOCKED perhaps? Perhaps locked after a blow-up fight on June 15th that NOBODY wants to mention to LE?


I'm speculating here but I don't think George saw either of his "girls" on the 16th.

I think Casey wore the "dress" pants when she and TonyL. went to interview and look for apartments (or something). And maybe she wore them the next day she dumped Caylee and spilled some decomp on the pants or was simply grossed out by the action and put the stinky pants in the car (i.e., not at Tony's and not back in her luggage as it was TOO GROSS).

Then you ask, how would GA know about the gray pants to tell LE that was the last outfit he saw Casey wearing? Well, that was the outfit left in the car in which Cindy washed!

The devil is in the details...

When did she say that?

 

[Marina2]

Theonly1, I think GA lied too. If he did, why? Because, in retrospect, he knew that Caylee was killed in that house on that night. He wanted to remove the house and the fight the night before from the murder. I too thought CA's comment about the breathing she heard through the door was strange. She could have just said "I heard them getting up" or "I heard them moving around" but, no, she wanted to highlight the fact that breaths were heard (the nurse in her) so they were in fact, alive on that morning. She lied about the fight with KC as well. All was normal, etc.

I posted much these same thoughts in the "Where do you think Caylee died" thread earlier this morning. IMO, GA lied and he did it for a reason. Caylee died the night before or early am in that house.

 

[suspicious1]

As I was woken from peacefully sleeping in the chair last night and told to go to bed, I then laid in bed for 2 hours, listening to Mr. Theonly1 snore, and thought about this case.

I was thinking about what GA allegedly saw Casey and Caylee wearing on June 16th (Casey in the gray pants with cream colored blouse) and Caylee in the outfit that she was NOT found with). I started wondering about the gray pants and them allegedly being found in the sunfire and washed by Cindy (thereby proving they were stinky).

Follow me on this for a minute:

1. Casey was seen on the Blockbuster video surveillance camera on June 16th NOT wearing the outfit George said he saw her in mid-afternoon.

2. Caylee was found with clothing that was NOT the clothing GA alleges she was wearing on June 16th.

So, either Casey and Caylee BOTH changed clothes or GA is mis-remembering or misstating the facts. WHY would he do this?

I can "buy" that Casey wore the nice gray dress pants to put on a front for George that she was going to "work". But the outfit she was wearing at Blockbuster was absolutely not a "work" outfit and not what George said she was wearing.

Could Casey have changed clothes for the benefit of hanging out with TonyL? Maybe. But she would have likely MILKED the "I was at work" scenario and shown up at Tony's wearing the "work" outfit and then changed into the casual clothes (thereby leaving the work outfit at his apartment with her bags and not in the backseat of the sunfire). So, WHY were the gray pants left in the sunfire? We know that the decomp would NOT have been runny and staining her clothes on June 16 if she had just killed Caylee. Further, if blood was of a concern (i.e., changed the clothes due them becoming bloody) then blood would have been found on the clothes because it is a MUCH harder substance to totally remove from miscroscopic examination.

So, I am thinking that George simply had it wrong or did not see Casey and Caylee on the 16th. Why?

I think poor Caylee was killed on the 15th and into the early wee hours of the 16th. Why? Because items of convenience from the bedrooms were found with the body (the Pooh blanket, clothes she had on from the 15th in my opinion, the hamper liner, etc., the heart sticker (doubt that was from Tony's home).

Cindy has stated on record that SHE did NOT see Caylee and Casey on June 16th but she "heard them breathing". HUH? I don't know of any house with a small toddler who would CLOSE THE DOOR to the child's bedroom (or the bedroom of the mother if toddler was sleeping with Mom). I can simply envisage Cindy A. pausing outside a locked door (speculation) and saying that she "heard them breathing". It is such a strange damn comment to me. Why pause outside a closed door? Because that door was LOCKED perhaps? Perhaps locked after a blow-up fight on June 15th that NOBODY wants to mention to LE?


I'm speculating here but I don't think George saw either of his "girls" on the 16th.

I think Casey wore the "dress" pants when she and TonyL. went to interview and look for apartments (or something). And maybe she wore them the next day she dumped Caylee and spilled some decomp on the pants or was simply grossed out by the action and put the stinky pants in the car (i.e., not at Tony's and not back in her luggage as it was TOO GROSS).

Then you ask, how would GA know about the gray pants to tell LE that was the last outfit he saw Casey wearing? Well, that was the outfit left in the car in which Cindy washed!

The devil is in the details...

Hey, Theonly 1, that was fascinating!:clap:

You might be on to something. I never thought about it like that.

 

[Skully]

The pants were definitely used to look like she was going to work. She may have just changed into them and out of them from the car. But I think George had his dates confused also for a long time. Seeing the pants in the car just made him remember them. But how did he remember what Caylee was wearing? I can't tell you details of what my husband had on a month ago. I never understood how he could do that.

Do we know if they took a hamper from the A's house? If the laundry bag was in fact a liner to a hamper and they do make them, it will have fibers inside the hamper. That proves where the bag came from. All they need now is one print off that duct tape.

 

[Theonly1]

Theonly1, I think GA lied too. If he did, why? Because, in retrospect, he knew that Caylee was killed in that house on that night. He wanted to remove the house and the fight the night before from the murder. I too thought CA's comment about the breathing she heard through the door was strange. She could have just said "I heard them getting up" or "I heard them moving around" but, no, she wanted to highlight the fact that breaths were heard (the nurse in her) so they were in fact, alive on that morning. She lied about the fight with KC as well. All was normal, etc.

I posted much these same thoughts in the "Where do you think Caylee died" thread earlier this morning. IMO, GA lied and he did it for a reason. Caylee died the night before or early am in that house.

Yeah, I don't KNOW if the family knew she was dead on June 16th. I am not willing to go that far for the date of June 16th. I presume that after the fight (if Casey did not up and bolt with Caylee) that she locked herself in her bedroom (or Caylee's bedroom) and told the fam to 'f-off'.

In my speculation, the family was desperate for this knock-down, drag out fight not to be known, and, thus, the tucking into bed story, the heard them breathing story, the left in the morning story complete with guesstimation about what they wore.

Don't family members basically give each other a W-I-D-E berth after a fight? I know mine does and we don't go head to head.

 

[Gma Kat]

Spot on, Lanie! (haha, that's the new trendy thing to say.) I also remember the former homicide detective that's always on NG, the bald guy, saying don't mess with chloroform unless you want to kill someone. KC used a potent and lethal amount of chloroform to off her daughter. In the past (around March when the searches first started), she may have seriously thought about offing her parents too, but didn't have the guts to do it back then.

Holy smokes! (my bold) That would explain why she was saying she was getting the house to her friends...

 

[Skully]

Just a thought here, Cindy in the 911 call gave a different description of clothing for Caylee as last seen in. She was telling the operator what Caylee had on and I guess KC was giving her the description of what she was wearing, but again it is a month. Now KC would remember what she last put on her, but not GA.

 

[elle1919]

Just a thought here, Cindy in the 911 call gave a different description of clothing for Caylee as last seen in. She was telling the operator what Caylee had on and I guess KC was giving her the description of what she was wearing, but again it is a month. Now KC would remember what she last put on her, but not GA.

wow, what was Casey telling Cindy to tell the 911 operator that Caylee was last wearing? I must have missed that, do you remember?

 

[Lanie]

I disagree. I think LA, GA and CA love Caylee. Their behavior defending KC right now is an instinctive reaction to protect family. None of them are evil like KC. None of them are heartless enough to dig up the dead body of their niece/granddaughter and move it, and go on with life. None of them would risk spending life in prison to help KC in such a manner either.

I believe the body was dumped where it was found, and due to a series of oversights it wasn't found until December 11. KC acted alone, and there was no daisy chain leading RK to the remains.

If LE are really preparing to charge LA with obstruction, I believe it's borne out of the jailhouse conversations he had with KC... asking her to use hand signals to elude the camera. JMO!

I agree with you that the rest of the A's had nothing to do with moving a body, and it was dumped where it was found. These people are dysfunctional, but I don't think they are complicit.
Lanie

 

[Marina2]

Yeah, I don't KNOW if the family knew she was dead on June 16th. I am not willing to go that far for the date of June 16th. I presume that after the fight (if Casey did not up and bolt with Caylee) that she locked herself in her bedroom (or Caylee's bedroom) and told the fam to 'f-off'.

In my speculation, the family was desperate for this knock-down, drag out fight not to be known, and, thus, the tucking into bed story, the heard them breathing story, the left in the morning story complete with guesstimation about what they wore.

Don't family members basically give each other a W-I-D-E berth after a fight? I know mine does and we don't go head to head.

Exactly, certainly not hugs and kisses, normal day. The family didn't know she died that night. Ga gave his statement about seeing them leave a month after the fact. He did that because, in retrospect, he figured out what had happened.

If you read my post from about 8:30 this morning on the "Where do you think Caylee died?" thread, you'll see what I think happened that night and morning. It's just as you present here. I so glad that someone else thinks it may have occurred this way...I was very alone with my theory!

 

[Skully]

wow, what was Casey telling Cindy to tell the 911 operator that Caylee was last wearing? I must have missed that, do you remember?

IIRC Cindy said shorts, pink, blue and some other color like black; plaid. I don't remember the shirt. Have to find the 911 call.

 

[Marina2]

IIRC Cindy said shorts, pink, blue and some other color like black; plaid. I don't remember the shirt. Have to find the 911 call.

CA was describing KC's clothes. If you listen again you'll hear the operator's next question is "Does she have any weapons?". They were talking about KC.

 

[suspicious1]

wow, what was Casey telling Cindy to tell the 911 operator that Caylee was last wearing? I must have missed that, do you remember?

I must've missed that one too! If you find it please fill me in. Thanks a bunch.

 

[CPP]

With the discovery of the sticker on the duct taped skull, I think its possible that KC used the chloroform to knock lil Caylee out; then applied the duct tape and sticker (I can even imagine her kissing that sticker), after which she simply pinched little Caylee's nose until she died. I think it all may have taken place in the car.

No way it was an accident that KC panicked over. There's no need to duct tape the mouth of a child (or anyone else for that matter) whose death is an accident.

 

[JWG]

IIRC Cindy said shorts, pink, blue and some other color like black; plaid. I don't remember the shirt. Have to find the 911 call.

Hey Bern,

I think what you are recalling is Cindy telling the operator what KC was wearing. There is no description in the 911 calls of what Caylee was wearing.

 

[BondJamesBond]

Bern: Excellent catch re: 911 clothing description...looking fwd to what you find. Casey would certainly be imparting diff clothes by this time to suggest k-napping

Theonly1: Wow! The 7/15-non-existent-phone-call "shoes" comment always seemed outta place to me, but, I had no clue why. :doh: Thanks!!

Also...I didn't go into detail above...just on the 6/16 vs. 6/9 thread...that George's description would've been what Caylee was wearing on 6/9...not 6/16...so the slacks were just luck-o-the-draw...albeit a safe bet if she used these often as suggested. I'm sure I sound like a broken record @ this point, but, IMHO, the pings support Casey was going to Lee's on these dates after leaving G&C's. On 6/16 she returned to G&C's from Lee's briefly before going to Tony's. She prolly just changed outta the "work clothes de jour" @ Lee's...tossed 'em in the floorboard with her other stuff when she left Lee's...a routine.