Theories On What Happened to Caylee Part #5

[sua_sponte]

This is my second and almost equal theory. Your comment about the doll being in the car... hmmm.. very good point. 2 year olds attach themselves to various stuff animals, dolls or blankies. For months, Sammy the Lammy, Gilly and blankie were CONSTANT companions. She since has given up Sammy and Gilly but Blankie GOES everywhere. My DD is 1 week older than Caylee..

JWG posted months ago.. about her leaving her in the car...

She left with Caylee.. waited till george left.. came back. Caylee was asleep, Casey on 36 min phone call with Amy. Got on computer. Forgot Caylee in the car. She was under alot of pressure.
Amy is wanting to move in.
No money
Mom kicking her out
Can't go to PR
No place to go
Just wanna be with Tony
Fight with mom night before

She went outside and seen Caylee was dead. Car in the garage with door down. VERY HOT. Plans kidnapping story.. puts her in the trunk dead, rents kidnapping movies with Tony to firm up story.

or

She brought Caylee in. Laid her down, took off her shoes, Caylee wakes up while Casey was on the phone with JG. Gets off phone with JG, Caylee has a tantrum... wets clothes, Casey changes her.. from jean shorts(skirt) to shorts with stripes. Big trouble shirt is pink (george is correct) Caylee won't stop crying. She gets in a rage. Thinks "yeah, she is big trouble." Smothers her. Pissed at Cindy while smothering Caylee. Not so much in her crazy mind is she hurting Caylee but she is hurting CINDY. Still pissed she figures she will just say the nanny did it. Tapes her mouth with duct tape and gets tape on hair. Has a moment of love for her baby. "Everyone lives -Everyone dies, such, a beautiful life." Pulls a heart sticker out of the drawer and puts it on the tape. Puts Caylee in the laundry bag with blankie and toy. This all takes about 45 minutes from 3:15 to 4 or so.. sticks Caylee dead in the trunk.
What is done is done.. might as enjoy herself with Tony. If she seems worried no one will believe that Caylee is with a nanny.

Goes to watch movie with Tony.. Rents kidnapping movies to firm up her story about Zani kidnapping Caylee. Appears to be happy because alot of problems just went away. Ramps up telling her mother, friends and anyone who will listen that Caylee is with the sitter over the next month. Actually starts to believe her own lie.

ITA on both scenarios as well.

And re: JWG having this down months ago... I guess I should have know that huh? I'm with everyone else here on hoping that JWG's on my case if I ever go missing.

 

[eddeva]

But, if Casey called 911 she would have to hang around to talk to the authorities and to explain what happened to her parents instead of seeing Tony.

I think that is more sacrifice than Casey was willing to make.

Casey was at the end of her rope where another night at THAT house WITH Cindy was unendurable. Every night away from Tony was unbearable. I see Casey as driven by impulse and into instant gratification.

She always took the easiest route.

IMO

i see your point jolynna and i agree that casey has all the impulse control of a 4yr old - but if she didn't intend to hang around, if she was at the end of her rope then why create such an elaborate murder w/, as zsa zsa pointed out, no marks of violence? something that truely could look like an entirely innocent accident and a tragedy, something she could get away w/ and why do it then?

i don't believe she did.

if casey planned to kill caylee that day i think that sua_sponte's depiction of events is likely how she would have done it and as you very insightfully stated that act would tie her to THAT house WITH cindy THAT night and being away from tony was unbearable ...... may i take that a step further? - ANY action taken by casey to kill caylee would result in either prison, or being trapped at home w/ cindy and playing the grieving mother in mourning. this is an act she must have known she would have to keep up for EVERY single person she came into contact w/, every hour of every long boring day for MONTHS, at the very, very least. it would be like a scene from 'Gone With The Wind', scarlett o' hara dressed in black, bored senseless w/ everyone paying their respects and her feet all the while tapping to the music beneath her skirts as she dreams of ashley! night clubs, freedom, and good times (the very reasons for doing this) would be a thing of the past, so out of reach she might as well be in prison ... and forget tony. he's the one she has to make the best impression on and she can't do that grindin' at fusian at a time like that! and he's not the type to sit and hold her hand until the horror of it all passes. he would be long lost to someone and somewhere else.
if she had let caylee live she would have been trapped and if she murdered her she would have been trapped. she must have been desperate.
there is NOTHING to say this was an accident and my gawd wouldn't it have to have been the most fortunate and convenient accident in recorded history?
i'm sure she dreamed of killing caylee on a daily basis but i don't think she would have dared do it then.
for me, this was an impulse she gave way to. it was rage and it was desperation and it was w/ malice aforethought, but it wasn't planned for THAT day. something triggered it. jmo

 

[sua_sponte]

i see your point jolynna and i agree that casey has all the impulse control of a 4yr old - but if she didn't intend to hang around, if she was at the end of her rope then why create such an elaborate murder w/, as zsa zsa pointed out, no marks of violence? something that truely could look like an entirely innocent accident and a tragedy, something she could get away w/?

i don't believe she did.

if casey planned to kill caylee that day i think that sua_sponte's depiction of events is likely how she would have done it and as you very insightfully stated that act would tie her to THAT house WITH cindy THAT night and being away from tony was unbearable ...... may i take that a step further - ANY action taken by casey to kill caylee would result in either prison, or being trapped at home w/ cindy and playing the grieving mother in mourning. this is an act she must have known she would have to keep up for EVERY single person she came into contact w/, every hour of every long boring day for MONTHS, at the very, very least. it would be like a scene from 'Gone With The Wind', scarlet o' hara dressed in black, bored senseless w/ everyone paying their respects and her feet all the while tapping to the music beneath her skirts as she dreams of ashley! night clubs, freedom, and good times (the very reasons for doing this) would be a thing of the past, so out of reach she might as well be in prison ... and forget tony. he's the one she has to make the best impression on and she can't do that grindin' at fusian at a time like that! and he's not the type to sit and hold her hand until the horror of it all passes. he would be long lost to someone and somewhere else.
if she had let caylee live she would have been trapped and if she murdered her she would have been trapped. she must have been desperate.
there is NOTHING to say this was an accident and my gawd wouldn't it have to have been the most fortunate and convenient accident in recorded history?
i'm sure she dreamed of killing caylee on a daily basis but i don't think she would have dared do it then.
for me, this was an impulse she gave way to. it was rage and it was desperation and it was w/ malice aforethought, but it wasn't planned for THAT day. something triggered it. jmo

OMG- Gone With the Wind is one of my favorite books! You painted that picture beautifully as I can totally see a black clad Scarlett/Casey lamenting over having to fake grieve and crying about her life being over- not because she lost her daughter, but because she lost her partying. Very insightful!

 

[christee]

Not long after I 1st heard of this case last year I said to DH "I wonder if they (Anthony's) have a pool?" So many tragic deaths happen from accidental drowning that could have been avoided.

 

[Rumpole]

I still think if Caylee died by accident, or anything that might look like accident, KC would have called 911 and revelled in the attention.

 

[Devon]

I still think if Caylee died by accident, or anything that might look like accident, KC would have called 911 and revelled in the attention.

And CA would have consoled KC with eternal compassion and forgiveness for KC's act of negligence that had led to the death of 'the centre of CA's universe'.

NOT!!

KC knew this only too well - 'My mother would never forgive me'!

IMO. irrespective of how and why Caylee died, KC's one aim is to avoid letting her family (and especially CA) know that she had any involvement in it.

 

[eddeva]

And CA would have consoled KC with eternal compassion and forgiveness for KC's act of negligence that had led to the death of 'the centre of CA's universe'.

NOT!!

KC knew this only too well - 'My mother would never forgive me'!

IMO. irrespective of how and why Caylee died, KC's one aim is to avoid letting her family (and especially CA) know that she had any involvement in it.

*my bold.
this doesn't work for me on several levels, devon but here's the most obvious: i feel it's impossible that casey is not aware of cindy's concerns regarding the ladder next to the pool (she must have heard it somewhere - it's on youtube for crying in a bucket) and yet cindy calls casey 'the mother of the year'. cindy protects casey at every turn and makes it clear that the entire family are united w/ casey. is this not in and of itself a clear demonstration of forgiveness even w/ doubts being voiced to law enforcement that cindy thinks an accident involving caylee might have occurred while in casey's care?

 

[impatientredhead]

and this is why Caylee was found with her mouth taped shut? no no , not an accident, not a drowning..no, Casey said it herself,

this was a vindictive and heinous murder. I think she poisoned the child with pesticides and chloroform. This will come out at trial. Left to her own devices i think Casey could have been a true black widow, she was just too stupid and impulsive.

Completely agree. The accident scenario makes no sense to me at all. She would have had to take some grief from Cindy if she went the drowning and called 911 route, but without Caylee she would be free to leave the house and not answer Cindy's calls.

The duct tape and especially the heart sticker scream to me that this was someone who had already mentally adjusted to their kid being dead. She knew in advance this was going to happen, whatever this was.

People put mementos with their loved ones when they are saying their final goodbyes. Not immediately after their death. Can you imagine your child dying unexpectedly, accidentally or otherwise and you take the time to put stickers on them? Not to mention tossing her out in the field. To me that is not a mother that is upset her child is gone which is what she should be if Caylee died unexpectedly. She had already moved on mentally/emotionally. The act itself was just something that had to be taken care of

With all the fame and attention she has currently I wonder if she would even change things if she could.....

 

[impatientredhead]

*my bold.
this doesn't work for me on several levels, devon but here's the most obvious: i feel it's impossible that casey is not aware of cindy's concerns regarding the ladder next to the pool (she must have heard it somewhere - it's on youtube for crying in a bucket) and yet cindy calls casey 'the mother of the year'. cindy protects casey at every turn and makes it clear that the entire family are united w/ casey. is this not in and of itself a clear demonstration of forgiveness even w/ doubts being voiced to law enforcement that cindy thinks an accident involving caylee might have occurred while in casey's care?

Having been raised by a crazy-lady-mom much like Cindy I can tell you that what is said in public is not necessarily what is said behind closed doors. Cindy berated Casey, threatened to get custody, demanded to know what she had done. Only when others started to criticize Casey and her actions did she suddenly become mother of the year.

 

[eddeva]

Having been raised by a crazy-lady-mom much like Cindy I can tell you that what is said in public is not necessarily what is said behind closed doors. Cindy berated Casey, threatened to get custody, demanded to know what she had done. Only when others started to criticize Casey and her actions did she suddenly become mother of the year.

believe me red, i can see that there are at least two sides to this particular coin but what i can't see is the cause of casey's abject terror ... and surely nothing else would make you accept LWOP instead of admitting to an innocent mistake.
what does she think cindy will do, knife her? then tell the police and beg for help.
i wouldn't spend the rest of my life, beginning at 22, in prison b/c my mother won't forgive me if i tell the truth - and my mother was the last of the great empire builders, she scared the hell out of me - been dead since i was a teenager and she's still one of only two human beings i have ever been afraid of.
would you do it?

 

[Devon]

*my bold.
this doesn't work for me on several levels, devon but here's the most obvious: i feel it's impossible that casey is not aware of cindy's concerns regarding the ladder next to the pool (she must have heard it somewhere - it's on youtube for crying in a bucket) and yet cindy calls casey 'the mother of the year'. cindy protects casey at every turn and makes it clear that the entire family are united w/ casey. is this not in and of itself a clear demonstration of forgiveness even w/ doubts being voiced to law enforcement that cindy thinks an accident involving caylee might have occurred while in casey's care?

Yes, CA defends and praises her daughter in public, but we know that she has a history of belittling and castigating her in private. It is very clear that CA wishes to maintain a good public image of the entire family dynamics, and I think if KC had owned up to an accident on that fateful 'day 31', CA's public response would have been one of full compassion and support for her daughter, but I think that mask would be off as soon as the front door was closed!

 

[eddeva]

Yes, CA defends and praises her daughter in public, but we know that she has a history of belittling and castigating her in private. It is very clear that CA wishes to maintain a good public image of the entire family dynamics, and I think if KC had owned up to an accident on that fateful 'day 31', CA's public response would have been one of full compassion and support for her daughter, but I think that mask would be off as soon as the front door was closed!

i agree w/ you devon. i believe that cindy does love casey, and i also believe she's a dangerously mixed up woman but what i don't believe is that this is sufficient reason for casey to still be lying about an accident. i don't care how maniacally scary cindy can be behind closed doors, when no one is watching, is it worth having the world think you're a monster and spending the rest of your life in prison for? a long time has passed since that first day and casey has a whole support mechanism in place so why not tell the truth and take advantage of the help those around her have been in a position to give you for months? why damn yourself b/c of the opinion/tantrums/emotional abuse and downright insanity of a woman you are now in the position (supported and even if not she's 22!) of choosing to never see again in your FREE life.
as i said before, i wouldn't it, would you?

 

[sua_sponte]

Completely agree. The accident scenario makes no sense to me at all. She would have had to take some grief from Cindy if she went the drowning and called 911 route, but without Caylee she would be free to leave the house and not answer Cindy's calls.

The duct tape and especially the heart sticker scream to me that this was someone who had already mentally adjusted to their kid being dead. She knew in advance this was going to happen, whatever this was.

People put mementos with their loved ones when they are saying their final goodbyes. Not immediately after their death. Can you imagine your child dying unexpectedly, accidentally or otherwise and you take the time to put stickers on them? Not to mention tossing her out in the field. To me that is not a mother that is upset her child is gone which is what she should be if Caylee died unexpectedly. She had already moved on mentally/emotionally. The act itself was just something that had to be taken care of

With all the fame and attention she has currently I wonder if she would even change things if she could.....

Hi Redhead - that's a very good analysis, but we don't know when the sticker was put on her for sure. The body was in the car for some time. we don't know when the final "packaging" took place.

 

[Devon]

i agree w/ you devon. i believe that cindy does love casey, but i also believe she's a dangerously mixed up woman but what i don't believe is that this is sufficient reason for casey to still be lying about an accident. i don't care how maniacally scary cindy can be behind closed doors, when no one is watching, is it worth having the world think you're a monster and spending the rest of your life in prison for? a long time has passed since that first day and casey has a whole support mechanism in place so why not tell the truth and take advantage of the help those around her have been in a position to give for months? why damn yourself b/c of the opinion/tantrums/emotional abuse and downright insanity of a woman you are now in the position (supported and even if not she's 22!) of choosing to never see again in your FREE life.
as i said before, i wouldn't it, would you?

I don't think KC even anticipated that the price of avoiding her mother's wrath and emotional retribution would be a life prison sentence. For the first 31 days she just played the 'act normal and avoid the parents' game, with no real thought as to how to explain Caylee's permanent 'disappearance'. It's only when put on the spot by CA that she transferred all blame to an untraceable but 'known' nanny. By then, it was too late to admit to an accident anyway (if that's what it was) because who would believe her? Let's imagine that it really WAS an accident and KC asks to speak to LE today and explain everything. How do you think that would go down?

 

[eddeva]

I don't think KC even anticipated that the price of avoiding her mother's wrath and emotional retribution would be a life prison sentence. For the first 31 days she just played the 'act normal and avoid the parents' game, with no real thought as to how to explain Caylee's permanent 'disappearance'. It's only when put on the spot by CA that she transferred all blame to an untraceable but 'known' nanny. By then, it was too late to admit to an accident anyway (if that's what it was) because who would believe her? Let's imagine that it really WAS an accident and KC asks to speak to LE today and explain everything. How do you think that would go down?

again i agree w/ you. i'm afraid the 'ss fessup' has sailed, but i believe she had ample time to climb aboard, or at least as a last resort jump in and swim like michael phelps before her fate was truely sealed and the fact that she never did that has only added to my feeling that this was not an accident, per se.
yanno what devon - as much as i agree w/ you there are still many aspects of this case where i doubt we'll ever see eye to eye but i greatly enjoy hearing your point of view and if i querie one of your posts i just hope you know that i'm only attempting to better understand your stance and to argue w/ you in any way will never be my intention

 

[Devon]

again i agree w/ you. i'm afraid the 'ss fessup' has sailed, but i believe she had ample time to climb aboard, or at least as a last resort jump in and swim like michael phelps before her fate was truely sealed and the fact that she never did that has only added to my feeling that this was not an accident, per se.
yanno what devon - as much as i agree w/ you there are still many aspects of this case where i doubt we'll ever see eye to eye but i greatly enjoy hearing your point of view and if i querie one of your posts i just hope you know that i'm only attempting to better understand your stance and to argue w/ you in any way will never be my intention

I know your responses are just healthy debate eddeva. :blowkiss:

I appreciate all such opportunities, which sadly are few and far between. There seem to be so many people who are completely and irrevocably convinced that KC deliberately and cold-bloodedly murdered her baby, but so few who seem willing or able to qualify or discuss their conclusions.

I'm not sure that I have any particular 'stance' on this case, except that I am keeping an open mind. I try to look at the facts and evidence from all angles, I won't let my immense sadness for the senseless loss of a child's life colour my judgement, I take all 'bombshells' and 'news' originating from the media or NG et al with a very large pinch of salt, and I don't accept that KC must be guilty of murder just because LE has charged her with it and a Grand Jury has found, on the balance of probabilities, that there is a case to answer.

Above all, what I hope for is that KC will be punished appropriately for what she IS actually guilty of, no more, no less. Justice for Caylee will only truly be served if that happens, because if she still had a voice I have no doubt that she would want the same. Sadly though, I can't see this happening.

 

[ibyoungr]

This is my second and almost equal theory. Your comment about the doll being in the car... hmmm.. very good point. 2 year olds attach themselves to various stuff animals, dolls or blankies. For months, Sammy the Lammy, Gilly and blankie were CONSTANT companions. She since has given up Sammy and Gilly but Blankie GOES everywhere. My DD is 1 week older than Caylee..

JWG posted months ago.. about her leaving her in the car...

She left with Caylee.. waited till george left.. came back. Caylee was asleep, Casey on 36 min phone call with Amy. Got on computer. Forgot Caylee in the car. She was under alot of pressure.
Amy is wanting to move in.
No money
Mom kicking her out
Can't go to PR
No place to go
Just wanna be with Tony
Fight with mom night before

She went outside and seen Caylee was dead. Car in the garage with door down. VERY HOT. Plans kidnapping story.. puts her in the trunk dead, rents kidnapping movies with Tony to firm up story.

or

She brought Caylee in. Laid her down, took off her shoes, Caylee wakes up while Casey was on the phone with JG. Gets off phone with JG, Caylee has a tantrum... wets clothes, Casey changes her.. from jean shorts(skirt) to shorts with stripes. Big trouble shirt is pink (george is correct) Caylee won't stop crying. She gets in a rage. Thinks "yeah, she is big trouble." Smothers her. Pissed at Cindy while smothering Caylee. Not so much in her crazy mind is she hurting Caylee but she is hurting CINDY. Still pissed she figures she will just say the nanny did it. Tapes her mouth with duct tape and gets tape on hair. Has a moment of love for her baby. "Everyone lives -Everyone dies, such, a beautiful life." Pulls a heart sticker out of the drawer and puts it on the tape. Puts Caylee in the laundry bag with blankie and toy. This all takes about 45 minutes from 3:15 to 4 or so.. sticks Caylee dead in the trunk.
What is done is done.. might as enjoy herself with Tony. If she seems worried no one will believe that Caylee is with a nanny.

Goes to watch movie with Tony.. Rents kidnapping movies to firm up her story about Zani kidnapping Caylee. Appears to be happy because alot of problems just went away. Ramps up telling her mother, friends and anyone who will listen that Caylee is with the sitter over the next month. Actually starts to believe her own lie.

ITA on both scenarios as well.

And re: JWG having this down months ago... I guess I should have know that huh? I'm with everyone else here on hoping that JWG's on my case if I ever go missing.

Here I go.. quoting myself.. but only to keep the intergity of this particular scenario.

Smothering.. can be considered premeditated and certainly not an accident. But the premediation only happened in a split second.. "If you do not shut up and stop crying.. I will make you shut up.." While Casey is gritting her teeth and grabbing for a pillow.. "just shut up.. just shut the H*## up..."
In her CRAZY state of mind, it is not Caylee she is smothering.. but her mom, her problems and complete frustration with everything that is going down (see list above)

Just stop crying... just stop crying.. RIGHT NOW...

On a legal note, the less "complicated" the murder then the less the defense has to shoot holes in the story.

If you have a opening statement or closing arguements that include cholorform or pestcides then you better have forensics to back it up. Defense can create reasonable doubt. Many of us here have reasonable doubt about the drowning or even drugging. We can't quite seem to buy the accident theory, some can't buy the drugging without forensics.

If you were a SA.. when not having a "murder weapon" or forensics would you not want to use the most plausible and believable method with the least amount of needed forensics to make your case? If you are a SA, and do not have the method of killing would you not want to create the most simplistic of methods so you do not give the defense much stuff to poke holes in?

If the "weapon of choice" was say a gun.. you need to show a gun to the jury or match bullets.

If it was drugs.. where are the drugs - hair, tissue, actual drugs

If it is choloroform.. you better have a bottle or rag to go along with the choloform in the car or a certain witness better testify to selling some choloform to Miss A.

If it was smothering.. any pillow in the house will do.

If she was left in the car.. the doll on the seat.. even the hits by the pool look good because Casey may have tried cooling her off before she realized she was dead.

So with a smothering.. why would she use the duct tape?
Because Casey spent her days spinning lies. She could not get caught with a smothered baby. She already had a fake nanny as evidenced in documentation. Why not say the nanny did it?

 

[Devon]

But surely if the prosecution attempts to 'create' the method by which they believe Caylee was murdered, wouldn't that simply be speculation, which they are not permitted to do? If they attempt to suggest strangulation, or any other method, they would need to explain how the evidence supports such a scenario.

Initially I believe they expected the PC searches and the raised levels of chloroform in the car trunk to supply them with a strong scenario, but IMO these pieces of evidence will easily be shot down by a competent forensic expert, since our very own amateur analysts here on WS have already shown that there are very plausible (and likely correct) alternative explanations for these pieces of evidence.

I think the prosecution knows this already, hence the search for any other chemicals/drugs etc at the A's house in December. It'll certainly be interesting to see if they do attempt to show the cause/mechanics of death.

 

[ibyoungr]

True it could be considered speculation. But they did take the round Winnie the Pooh pillow. It was seen in the top of a paperbag when they were gathering items from the Anthony home. The also took a parenting book dealing with tantrums.

I think they have to work with every possible scenario and sleuth it till it either pans out or doesn't.

Truly, I have not ruled out OTC drugs but I think at this point... that maybe be difficult for the prosecution to prove and it is speculation as well. Also the defense can poke holes with the lack of forensics.
With a drug OD you would think forensics would have found at least a drop of vomit in the trunk. I know to much cold or cough med can make you puke and possible cause aspiration, getting vomit in the lungs.

 

[warbuckle]

The also took a parenting book dealing with tantrums.

I really hope they don't use this as evidence to prove she killed her daughter. If so, i think anyone that has kids is not going to buy it and maybe be offended. I also think the defense can spin it and say KC was being a responsible parent because she wanted to learn to properly handle Caylee's tantrums.