Theories On What Happened to Caylee Part #5

[ibyoungr]

I really hope they don't use this as evidence to prove she killed her daughter. If so, i think anyone that has kids is not going to buy it and maybe be offended. I also think the defense can spin it and say KC was being a responsible parent because she wanted to learn to properly handle Caylee's tantrums.

That is true too. My point in the last few posts has been. If Casey killed her daughter the prosecution must have either a "smoking gun" or the simplest method possible as part of their argument. The more complex the "method" the more the defense has to work with to shoot down.

 

[sua_sponte]

That is true too. My point in the last few posts has been. If Casey killed her daughter the prosecution must have either a "smoking gun" or the simplest method possible as part of their argument. The more complex the "method" the more the defense has to work with to shoot down.

This discussion about SA strategy is certainly interesting. I too wonder how they are going to approach this.
**Armchair lawyer warning** If it were me...my emphasis would be on the actuallly known facts. I would just say "31 days, dead baby, death band hair in car, lying mother, case closed." I don't even know if it's important for them to bring up the cause of death at all. If anything, the defense is going to be the one pushing that boat, trying to raise doubt and distract from the hard facts.

 

[Rumpole]

Originally Posted by ibyoungr View Post
The also took a parenting book dealing with tantrums.

I really hope they don't use this as evidence to prove she killed her daughter. If so, i think anyone that has kids is not going to buy it and maybe be offended. I also think the defense can spin it and say KC was being a responsible parent because she wanted to learn to properly handle Caylee's tantrums.

LE took photos of "Tantrum Book" but did not take it into evidence.

 

[Theonly1]

Originally Posted by ibyoungr View Post
The also took a parenting book dealing with tantrums.


LE took photos of "Tantrum Book" but did not take it into evidence.

Humor:

Maybe Cindy was using it to cope with Casey's tantrums?

 

[Rumpole]

Humor:

Maybe Cindy was using it to cope with Casey's tantrums?

I think in the Anthony home you can regard it as the family Operating Manual?

 

[Woe.be.gone]

Things that continue to bother me about all of the A's stories -

1. The lack of dialogue surrounding the Father's day activities. Where was KC all day? Why was she reported as having been home by CA late afternoon/early evening when CA and Caylee took a swim but KC didn't feel like it and sat out by the table CA said. Pings don't have KC home until around 7:30 p.m. the night of the 15th. CA and Caylee returned home from Mt. Dora mid afternoon (3:00 p.m. toll pass). How did CA get Caylee that day in the first place? Why can't anybody accurately recall what had been going on the week before? Obviously it was a very rocky week between CA and KC and KC had stayed away from CA as much as possible. How did the Father's day visit to Mt. Dora come about? Why wasn't it clear to CA the last date she had Caylee with her? Especially if she had not seen either of them all week between her B-Day and Father's day. I cannot understand this oversight. The turmoil heated up around CA's B-day which is all the more reason she would have significant dates in mind to remember whether or not she had had visits with Caylee during that weekend and beyond. If not, wouldn't the fact that Caylee was finally "home" for Father's Day have been a big deal (she never did get home the 4th of July like CA had wanted). If you were worried all week that your grandbaby was gone but then saw her one day FOR THE LAST DAY EVER, wouldn't that day be crystal clear to you?

I've often wondered if something happened to Caylee while George was supposed to be watching her. Don't gang up on me, I can wonder.

2. The dogs hit in the backyard and now CA denies it. The ladder was found up against the pool according to CA but no big deal anymore I guess.

3. Lee replaced the pool filter (ordered one over the internet) but never mentioned this to LE that I know of.

4. Yard work, moving plants, etc.

We've gone in so many directions since last July, my head spins sometimes. My brain is so cluttered with side stories I don't know which way is up.

I'll be interested to see the results on the stain from the carpet and cushion in the sun room as well as all evidence LE has regarding the case.

How can anyone say what happened to precious Caylee. We simply do not know.

One thing I can say with certainty, KC has no respect for anyone to include herself.

 

[jcamille]

I accept what you say.

I have no personal experience of Florida conditions. I could envisage a child surviving in a trunk for considerable time. Horrible state to be in and a slow horrible death, but possible?

If she was in the trunk, she would have been dead in less than than 30-45 minutes from the heat, especially if she was put in there in the late afterenoon when it could have been 90 degrees outside - that would easily soar to over 110 degrees inside a car in a matter of minutes..

 

[Rumpole]

If she was in the trunk, she would have been dead in less than than 30-45 minutes from the heat, especially if she was put in there in the late afterenoon when it could have been 90 degrees outside - that would easily soar to over 110 degrees inside a car in a matter of minutes..

The detailed phone study by BJB and JWG seems to indicate a likely time of 6:36pm to 7:06pm for Caylee to be put in trunk.
Cooler evening?
Car may have been parked in the shade?
It was a white car, so coolest possible colour?
I am GUESSING it is possible to survive especially as night descended.

Are there really examples of times it has taken to die in a trunk?
That would be useful comparison data to have.

 

[It's Not the Nanny]

IF KC put Caylee in the trunk, it wasn't for the opportunity to spend the evening/night with her boyfriend. She was raised in the FL heat. She would have to know that Caylee would not survive a few hours in the trunk in the summer with no ventilation.

If she put Caylee in the trunk, she did it because she knew she would die.


This is why I don't believe this theory. As much as I hate KC, I think she couldn't subject Caylee to such a horrible death. If she intentionally murdered her (which I believe she did), she did it as fast as she could and privately.

I think she smothered her after placing the tape over her mouth during naptime.

Other possibilty, placement of tape and put in garage with car running (as a previous poster suggested).

 

[ExpectingUnicorns]

The detailed phone study by BJB and JWG seems to indicate a likely time of 6:36pm to 7:06pm for Caylee to be put in trunk.
Cooler evening?
Car may have been parked in the shade?
It was a white car, so coolest possible colour?
I am GUESSING it is possible to survive especially as night descended.

Are there really examples of times it has taken to die in a trunk?
That would be useful comparison data to have.

Here's some research I did on this question back in the beginning of this case. Have copied it here.

If KC put her in the trunk on the night of the 6th of June the temperature inside of the trunk would have risen to at least 112 degrees within 1 hour. That calculation is using the low temperature of 73 degrees, which was in the morning of 7 June. I'm sure it was hotter than that during the evening when she would have been originally placed in the trunk. The high was 93 degrees on the 6th. The weather history I used only listed the high and low but not by the hour -- So, to error on the side of conservatism, I used the lowest temp and the chart I found listed at: http://www.4rkidssake.org/Vehicleheatstudy.htm (Study of Excessive Temps in Enclosed Vehicles).
Their conclusions: "When temperatures exceed 80 F (26.7C) potentially lethal temperatures of 105 F (40.6C) plus can be reached in less than 20 minutes and when they exceed 88 F (31.1C) lethal readings can be reached in 10 minutes or less. Only minor mitigation achieved by “cracking” the windows or having a vehicle of larger size or a lighter color."
IMO, it doesn't sound like Caylee would have survived the first hour in the the trunk, drugs or no drugs.

 

[Rumpole]

Here's some research I did on this question back in the beginning of this case. Have copied it here.

If KC put her in the trunk on the night of the 6th of June the temperature inside of the trunk would have risen to at least 112 degrees within 1 hour. That calculation is using the low temperature of 73 degrees, which was in the morning of 7 June. I'm sure it was hotter than that during the evening when she would have been originally placed in the trunk. The high was 93 degrees on the 6th. The weather history I used only listed the high and low but not by the hour -- So, to error on the side of conservatism, I used the lowest temp and the chart I found listed at: http://www.4rkidssake.org/Vehicleheatstudy.htm (Study of Excessive Temps in Enclosed Vehicles).
Their conclusions: "When temperatures exceed 80 F (26.7C) potentially lethal temperatures of 105 F (40.6C) plus can be reached in less than 20 minutes and when they exceed 88 F (31.1C) lethal readings can be reached in 10 minutes or less. Only minor mitigation achieved by “cracking” the windows or having a vehicle of larger size or a lighter color."
IMO, it doesn't sound like Caylee would have survived the first hour in the the trunk, drugs or no drugs.

Thanks.

I missed a lot by being a late starter at WS.
Trying to get all facts to fit a theory is very much like trying to herd kittens, but not as much fun.

PS Nothing is good in this case, but actually I was contemplating perhaps long time for death in the trunk, so it's better that is not likely.

 

[sua_sponte]

Thanks.

I missed a lot by being a late starter at WS.Trying to get all facts to fit a theory is very much like trying to herd kittens, but not as much fun.

PS Nothing is good in this case, but actually I was contemplating perhaps long time for death in the trunk, so it's better that is not likely.

Me too. I'm wondering... a lot of you are convinced that Caylee died in the trunk. Why is that? Did I miss some piece of evidence that puts her there both as alive and dead? The only trunk evidence I've seen is the hair and the smell, but that only points to a dead Caylee being stored in the trunk. Have I missed something major?
This is a sincere question. I'm not trying to be argumentative although it's hard not to come across that way in text.

 

[Rumpole]

Me too. I'm wondering... a lot of you are convinced that Caylee died in the trunk. Why is that? Did I miss some piece of evidence that puts her there both as alive and dead? The only trunk evidence I've seen is the hair and the smell, but that only points to a dead Caylee being stored in the trunk. Have I missed something major?
This is a sincere question. I'm not trying to be argumentative although it's hard not to come across that way in text.

The reason I have taken to considering Caylee died in the trunk is that if "fits" with the best scenario I have at the moment, to include various bits of evidence and the likely timeline.

One key thing for me is the surveillance video from video busters. As monstrous as I now think KC is, I can not reconcile her carefree demeanour with the fact that she knew Caylee had just died, whether by violent act or accident. I think KC at least thought Caylee was alive, so I think most likely in the trunk by then?

 

[Devon]

For those of you who believe that Caylee died away from the A's home, I'd be interested in your thoughts on the evidence that the pool ladder was found in place at the pool and that the side gate was left open on a date sometime between June 16 and June 23. I think this evidence is now corroborated because CA's co-worker Debbie stated in her witness testimony that CA told her about it a few days before she mentioned the 'gas can' incident that occurred on June 23.

I think it can only have been KC who was responsible for leaving the gate open, so why was this, and was the ladder left at the pool by accident or placed there purposely, and by whom?

IMO this is an important piece of evidence which I feel is not getting a great deal of attention. What is it's significance?

 

[It's Not the Nanny]

Me too. I'm wondering... a lot of you are convinced that Caylee died in the trunk. Why is that? Did I miss some piece of evidence that puts her there both as alive and dead? The only trunk evidence I've seen is the hair and the smell, but that only points to a dead Caylee being stored in the trunk. Have I missed something major?
This is a sincere question. I'm not trying to be argumentative although it's hard not to come across that way in text.

I'm wondering, too.

With KC, I think the "KISS" method is always the most likely...."Keep It Simple Stupid".

Biggest piece of KISS evidence: She was dumped her body down the street from her house just 20 yards off the street.....with duct tape and other items that matched the house.

I understand how many are reading the "flurry" of calls to find a sitter -- but wouldn't KC have to have the duct tape along to keep her quiet in the trunk as her back up plan? Sedatives, chloroform...... again, too much work for someone so simple minded.

I think using the trunk as the "sitter" is too out there for a jury and the SA's will keep it simple and present the idea that KC did this all on her own in the privacy of her home.

The flurry of calls, IMO, were KC's attempt at shoving more lies down her mother's throat (i.e., we will be at Zanny's and not coming home) BEFORE she reached TonE's so she wouldn't have to deal with CA's angry "Where the heck are you" calls later that evening.

 

[Devon]

I understand how many are reading the "flurry" of calls to find a sitter -- but wouldn't KC have to have the duct tape along to keep her quiet in the trunk as her back up plan? Sedatives, chloroform...... again, too much work for someone so simple minded.

Snipped

That's a good point.......if duct tape was used to silence Caylee in the car on the evening of June 16, she must have either brought it with her 'just in case', or obtained it from somewhere at some point during the trip from home to TL's apartment. So did she calmly forward-plan, by popping the tape into her glove box before she set off, or did she stop en route and nip into a local Depot or Walmart, possibly with Caylee by her side or sitting in the shopping trolley?

 

[Theonly1]

again i agree w/ you. i'm afraid the 'ss fessup' has sailed, but i believe she had ample time to climb aboard, or at least as a last resort jump in and swim like michael phelps before her fate was truely sealed and the fact that she never did that has only added to my feeling that this was not an accident, per se.

Heh. That certainly paints a picture. Thanks for the morning chuckle.

 

[snow_walker]

My thoughts on the pool ladder and the gate left open.. and I admit I haven't given it a whole lot of thought, just my original thoughts which I haven't really examined closely..

I think KC came home to grab something, and went for a swim while she was there. She didn't bother with the gate or ladder as the pool no longer presented any danger to the baby, Caylee was gone. More especially, it was one more subtle clue "No need to worry about little Caylee anymore Mom!' I think she left a lot of clues to the same effect, to worry her mother and hint in a gleeful cunning sort of fashion at what she had done.
Some examples that spring to mind:

The poem about what was given could be taken away
Not taking anything for little Caylee while she took clothes for herself
The pool ladder incident
The 'grey' pics of caylee on her facebook acct
The many skeletons and the hanged teddy bear pic


of course she kept the suspense building by constantly saying she woud bring Caylee home soon.. keep Mom worrying, but keep reassuing her everything is just fine. Can you think of anything crueler she could do to her mother? Taunting and teasing,building up hope and dashing it again and again, using a baby's life as a power play pawn

 

[ibyoungr]

The reason I have taken to considering Caylee died in the trunk is that if "fits" with the best scenario I have at the moment, to include various bits of evidence and the likely timeline.

One key thing for me is the surveillance video from video busters. As monstrous as I now think KC is, I can not reconcile her carefree demeanour with the fact that she knew Caylee had just died, whether by violent act or accident. I think KC at least thought Caylee was alive, so I think most likely in the trunk by then?

When I see her at the Video Store I see that she is happy because she no longer has to worry about Caylee. Caylee is already dead. Caylee will not be able to "tell" on her to Grandma, she has taken away the one thing her mother wanted. She no longer has to worry about a sitter. She has her "story" about the "nanny" already set. A several of her friends commented in the interviews. They could see Casey telling herself a lie and believing it. The scenario above of putting the tape on her face while she was sleeping and then suffocating Caylee is believable to me as well.

Now all she needs to do is get a few "kidnapping" ideas from some movies she is going to watch with Tony.

I can't see her happy and carefree at the video store if she knew she had a LIVE Caylee in the trunk. I see her being worried that Caylee would wake up or make noises. Then there is the whole.. going out to check on her.

 

[DAWN TREADER]

The video image of Casey having an emotional break down and shaking her fists in anger/frustration while talking with her parents (jail visit October 08) shows a frightening, out of control side of Casey that I have to believe her parents have seen before. "Calm down Casey" ....

We may never know precisely when or how Caylee was murdered. Did it happen at home in her own bedroom? Was she drowned in the bathtub or pool? Did she die in the trunk of Casey's car parked in the Anthony garage? The evidence suggests a number of possible scenarios. My personal opinion is however she was murdered, it happened at the Anthony home.