Theories On What Happened to Caylee Part #5

[Elysium]

What makes it very hard to determine what happened is the lack of cooperation from Cindy and George. At first, George was providing LE with what I believe to be valid info on Casey---the fact that he did smell decomp, that he thought she was hiding something etc. BUT CINDY is a whole other ball of wax. She's been trying to protect Casey and she's suppressed George from speaking what he knows. She's been angry with him ever since she found out that he took the police aside (away from her) on that first night and told them that he really thought Casey had something to do with it. I guess he didn't think it would be reported and get back to Cindy. Since then Cindy has been running the show. She feels that they "threw Casey under the bus". So, I'm saying if she hadn't been lying so much and pointing fingers at other people (which we can see right through) then maybe we would have a better idea of what happened. But, from all that I've read and watched my theory is that Cindy and Casey were fighting about money and Casey stealing from her Grandmother, Shirley. I believe Cindy threatened to take custody of Caylee and told Casey she had no more chances, this was it. This happened on the 15th of June. I don't think Casey stayed at home that night. I think she ran out with Caylee following the argument saying something like "you will NEVER get Caylee--she's not YOURS, she's MINE!" I have a hunch that George lied about the last time he saw them because Cindy did not want LE to know the circumstances under which Casey left. Also, remember at first she claimed that she thought Casey was working the whole time they were gone, or at least a large part of it--she said Casey was telling her this--BUT, Cindy told her Mother that Casey had taken Caylee off to "bond" and go on vacation and everyday told Cindy she'd be home the next day. So, right from the start, Cindy knew that Casey was keeping Caylee away from her. Cindy even got on her myspace on July 3 to write that "caylee is missing" entry.

So, Cindy was probably feeling guilty and didn't want to get the police involved earlier--although I can't understand how she could have been so believing of what Casey was telling her that month. Even her co-workers thought it was extremely strange.

So, I think Casey was extremely upset at Cindy to the point of hating her and like a lot of others feel, wanted to get back at her. I also feel that Casey was at her boiling point and Caylee was upset from all the fighting and could have been having a tantrum--etc. Casey totally goes off on poor Caylee, beginning her plan to kill her--but earlier than she had planned. I feel that she duct tapped Caylee first to keep her quiet and then either cloroformed her or suffocated her. Then she just put her in the back of the car wrapped in the pooh blanket. She wanted to be with Tony L. and free from her Mom. I do believe that she took Caylee back to the house in the next two or three days with the intention of burying her in the back yard. She carried her out there and probably tried to dig but the ground may have been too hard and she realized that she didn't have enough time, so, she went and grabbed the garbage bags and hamper bag and put her inside those and then loaded her in her trunk. Sometime between the 20th and 27th of June, she dumped the body in the woods on Suburban, being familiar with that spot and I think she had a little "memorial" for herself, putting the heart sticker on the tape..etc. On the 27th, she runs out of gas at the Amscot and has Tony pick her up saying that she would have her Dad take care of the car. I don't believe she was thinking about the kidnapping story when she actually killed Caylee as she was in a rage and did not think it through. In fact, she didn't come up with that until Lee pressed her on July 15th about what she would tell police. I have the feeling that she wanted to kill Cindy and George first and foremost, thinking that she would get the house and whatever money they had. I think that is why she was looking up "household weapons" etc. on the computer earlier in the spring. She'd had it with Cindy and reportedy didn't really get along with George either. And I think she knew that they were getting fed up with her and her "free ride" might be coming to an end. BUT, that fight on June 15th threw off her plans, so she killed Caylee and fled. During the time she was with Tony, she didn't seem to think too much about consequences as if, she was living in a dream world. As her grandmother said in her police interview, Casey hated Cindy more than she loved Caylee.

I can't imagine how hard all of this has been on the family, but I just cannot understand Cindy's actions in trying to protect Casey. Maybe she blamed herself or felt guilty but the fact that Casey did what she did has nothing to do with Cindy. I know George said that Cindy didn't want to "lose both of her girls", so I guess she just doesn't want to lose Casey, but she has to realize that the police know all about Cindy's lies and odd behavior, and no one can help Casey. George tried to do the right thing and Cindy has torn him apart for it. She has power over him due to his past problems with money--on-line gambling--sketchy work history--whatever. But, he needs to get help, get his life together and move on. And she needs to be prosecuted for lying to police. And then this whole Casey Dominic thing and his "investigation" in the woods during November....well, I think that was just him following Cindy's orders to go out there, pretend to search for Caylee (knowing that she was there via Casey) and to say that she was absolutely not there. To basically keep the body from ever being found.

I say thank God for Roy Krunk and damn the Anthony's for not giving him the full reward. Cindy is such a *advertiser censored*. No wonder Casey ended up like she has. I wouldn't put anything past those two. But, what Cindy doesn't seem to realize is that the police and FBI are about a thousand times smarter than she is and have her number. She's been talking to ABC about doing a story and has already sold photos and video of Caylee for about $200,000.

I'm sorry, I've gone on too long. I just get wrapped up in this and so angry at the Anthony's.

R.I.P. sweet Caylee

 

[essies]

Very well said and I totally agree! And :Welcome-12-june::Banane19:Elysium

 

[Rumpole]

I think because of the cell pings and the computer usage, that Caylee died around 3 pm June 16th, and her body was re bagged and disposed of on June 19th. I don't have the cell pings now, but I remember that on June 18th and June 19th there was hours of down time. I think she was looking for where to put the body and then sleeping and regrouping. It's been a long time since I looked at the pings and maps.

I am no expert on the phone evidence, but aren't there calls after that, and suggestion it was attempts to find baby sitter?

 

[ibyoungr]

Two questions that popped in my head today.. is:

Why go to the trouble of using chloroform that only works for 15-20 minutes at time.. when an OTC would work all night?

Why use a OTC or chloroform to kill a child when a quick smothering will do the trick with no evidence left behind?

By evidence left behind, I mean when a killer uses a gun to kill someone there is a gun.
when a killer strangles their vicitim a collar bone is broken and maybe a rope, belt or piece of fabric could be found.
With a chloroform you would expect to find a rag or bottle or something...
With a smothering.. well could you find a pillow , but how would forensics determine which pillow...

Another thought... I could see the mixture of OTC drug(like benadryl) and then the smothering while the child slept.. low risk,child would not be aware, quick and clean...

 

[sumbunny]

Two questions that popped in my head today.. is:

Why go to the trouble of using chloroform that only works for 15-20 minutes at time.. when an OTC would work all night?

Why use a OTC or chloroform to kill a child when a quick smothering will do the trick with no evidence left behind?

By evidence left behind, I mean when a killer uses a gun to kill someone there is a gun.
when a killer strangles their vicitim a collar bone is broken and maybe a rope, belt or piece of fabric could be found.
With a chloroform you would expect to find a rag or bottle or something...
With a smothering.. well could you find a pillow , but how would forensics determine which pillow...

Another thought... I could see the mixture of OTC drug(like benadryl) and then the smothering while the child slept.. low risk,child would not be aware, quick and clean...

Or, even easier..duct tape her mouth and hold her nose.

 

[Rumpole]

I'll go along with the POSSIBILITY that KC got into the habit of dosing Caylee with OTC medicine to get her to sleep. That is a documented practice and problem. However that is worlds apart from attacking and knocking a child out with chloroform. I don't see any evidence of chloroform. A brief google search means nothing. Apart from that, I imagine administering Chloroform is tricky to do, especially with a struggling child. A practice liable from the outset to use too much and kill the child, or knock yourself out with the fumes. Use too little and it wont do much. As far as I have read it's a very temporary "sleep". It seems a silly thing to try, even for KC, and achieves almost nothing.

 

[ibyoungr]

Or, even easier..duct tape her mouth and hold her nose.

That too... I could easily go for a duct tape hold the nose scenario.. while Caylee was sound asleep with an OTC.

The pillow would be hard to struggle from....and she would not see her mother's face.

A pinched nose would be easier to "squirm" away from.

 

[ibyoungr]

I'll go along with the POSSIBILITY that KC got into the habit of dosing Caylee with OTC medicine to get her to sleep. That is a documented practice and problem. However that is worlds apart from attacking and knocking a child out with chloroform. I don't see any evidence of chloroform. A brief google search means nothing. Apart from that, I imagine administering Chloroform is tricky to do, especially with a struggling child. A practice liable from the outset to use too much and kill the child, or knock yourself out with the fumes. Use too little and it wont do much. As far as I have read it's a very temporary "sleep". It seems a silly thing to try, even for KC, and achieves almost nothing.

ITA.. and many a "good" parent has used a tad bit of Benadryl to get a kid to sleep on a plane or car ride.

Some little ones will not even take OTC or prescribed medicine without a struggle.

 

[piratemom]

Does anyone else find it odd and unnerving that when faced with the DP JB throws out statistics on Filicide and comes up with a whole unwitting overdose of a sedative/accidental death theory.
Maybe the DA's office should have gotten some type of confession before allowing the DP off the table.

 

[ibyoungr]

The mini timeline around TOD and bag/dump would be a good thing to pin down.

But I guess we don't have enough facts to pin things down.

If you add 7hrs to your B example you get KC at least rebagging the body around 9pm 19th. Perhaps dumping it then, or the next day (20th) or even later (24th).

I only include that particular example having read your phone analysis and suggestion of critical time 6:36pm to 7:06 pm on the 16th before going to Blockbuster. My guess being that around 7:00 was when KC put Caylee in the trunk. I think alive, and she died some time after that?

I am going to review the ping records.. I think she was there earlier.

Per Tony's audio this is what he says on Sept 8 paraphrased...
"Her demeanor on June 16th per Tony Lazzaro.. normal, the close gf that she was. Not panicky, sweaty that night....never like that during the day. Couple of times she had nightmares and can not remember the night. Right back to the apt. Nathan was at the apt. Cops asked Tony if she went out to the car often. He said she would go outside to talk to her mom. LE asked.. if she did that night. Cop said… NO? as if Tony shook his head no.
He asked if Casey woke up that night with the sweats.. he says he can’t remember."

 

[ibyoungr]

UGGGHHHH

She has consenual sex all morning of June 17th with Tony. No going out to the car to check the car or anything on June 17th or the morning of.... No going out and getting on the phone.

Me thinks Caylee was disposed of in the back on June 16th and picked back up and re-bagged on the 18th or 19th.

 

[Rumpole]

UGGGHHHH

She has consenual sex all morning of June 17th with Tony. No going out to the car to check the car or anything on June 17th or the morning of.... No going out and getting on the phone.

Me thinks Caylee was disposed of in the back on June 16th and picked back up and re-bagged on the 18th or 19th.

Thanks. Those two posts help with some general impressions of that critical night 16th.
I think we always have to have some caution about even early testimony being more than a month after events, so could be mistaken or innocently combining events from different occasions.
I can not discount that KC left Caylee's body hidden in A. backyard on 16th, but I would not have risked that! There was garden potterer GA, and nosy CA, and two little doggies who might well find a body.(Besides Penny the cat would have seen her do it).

However if she had the chutzpah to do that, and be as cool as a cucumber that night, then have mad, passionate rumpo that morning, with the task of amateur Undertaker ahead of her, then it's possible. Generally the problem I have with this case is I CAN NOT think like KC! I can not come up with a complete theory that fits with how I would have behaved and appeared.

 

[ibyoungr]

I think it was easier for her to be soooo carefree.. because well the deed was done.

 

[Jolynna]

I have to agree with ibyoungr. Casey's phone pings put her at Tony's apartment by 4:30. Casey would've known if she put Caylee in a trunk in Florida Caylee wouldn't survive until the next morning.

Yet, as I was sure he would, Tony said Casey NEVER checked her car trunk or even went outside.

Casey is monstrous enough to kill her daughter (however she did it) and happily go to Blockbuster.

IMO

 

[jon_burrows]

Or, even easier..duct tape her mouth and hold her nose.

This is terrible to type but I think she duct taped her mouth and nose shut then covered her face with a pillow or blanket so Caylee couldn't get to the tape. Casey also wouldn't have to watch the horror and suffering on Caylee's face. I believe Casey smothered to death. IMO

RIP little Caylee.

 

[christee]

Is it possible that KC put Caylee in the woods because she was in a hurry(GA and CA would be home soon?) and if she didn't have time to take her anywhere else, the woods would just be temporary until she could move her permanently but KC never did. I can see KC saying "this is only for a little while and then I'll come back for you".

Eeeck! Just so sad

 

[ibyoungr]

Per Cindy's Audio interview with OSCO on August 1st. Cindy was told by Casey that Casey and Caylee were planning on staying with Zanny the night of June 16th.

So.. does this mean the rush of calls to Cindy was to let her mom she was not going to be home and staying at zanny's vs "I need a sitter?"

 

[ibyoungr]

I do not know if it matters about how or exactly when but all of this we do know:
( I posted on the NG thread tonite in reply to another poster. However, I think this sums up alot and wanted to put it on a permenant thread.)


Cindy states in her interview that Casey told her they were staying at the nanny's on the night of June 16th. (she already planned for Caylee to be gone)

Told GA that they were probably not going to be home that night.

Casey was at home in the afternoon of June 16th per computer forensics. Leaving with Caylee in front of George(get an alibi that she left with Caylee) to return to the house.. only to show up at Tony's at 4:30 without Caylee.

Caylee was found tripled bag and left like trash in the woods. NEAR HER HOME
with NO SHOES (you take shoes off when kids take a nap) with DUCT TAPE on the baby's mouth(you tape a mouth to keep it from screaming) and put a heart sticker on the tape(hearts mean love)

Casey backs into a garage and borrows a shovel. (not typical behavior)

Casey was happy and carefree at BB. (she now has freedom)

TL doesn't recall her going outside during the movies to her car per the audio interview.

They slept in the next day on June 17th having sex with Tony while he skipped school.(per TL interview) She does not go outside or seem nervous.

Casey ramps up the story about Zanny the Nanny.. offering it up often times without being asked to all her friends and mom.

Casey creates the outrageous lie about Zanny in a car accident/Tampa etc and offers it up to Cindy. ( a total unessesary lie no purpose other than to set up a non-existent nanny)

Casey goes out and parties it up on June 20th, 27th, July 4th, only using ZANNY as the sitter... she no longer is telling any of her friends especially on July 4th that Caylee is with the nanny instead of her GRANDPARENTS on a HOLIDAY.

Casey uploads photos of her and her boyfriend the DAY after Caylee's last day.

Casey gets a tattoo, steals, shops and smokes pot.

Casey dumps her car and offers up stories about the smell and where it came from.

Casey does not report her daughter kidnapped EVER.

Casey continues to tell bald face lies even when confronted with the truth.

Casey continues to laugh and smile and flirt with not just one guy but numerous men.

Casey has a PHYSICAL reaction that was spontaneous to the finding of the remains.

Casey is reported unemotional and flat when talking rapidly to the jailhouse officer.Casey talks about Football shortly after hearing about remains being found.

Casey only cries when SHE is faced with no bond, going to jail, or trying to garner sympathy for herself.


Casey cries at a press conference with Jose B. The ONLY TIME she cried in front of cameras or attended her own news conference. Not one pleading to the kidnappers.

Casey is NOT CRYING within hours of the press conference when the police chased her down and took her in for the interview in October. She acts cold, cool and collected and even gets a little flirting in. Not once, did she act like an innocent person.

Casey did not want a public memorial for her daughter.

Casey could not accept the rest of the world loving Caylee.


Casey evidently has adapted well to prison life. She is permenantly free of her mother.

"She hated her mother.. more than she loved that little girl."


Casey is defective, she is cold, she has no true emotions, she will probably not have the capacity to be rehabiliated.

Casey has 19 criminal charges against her and she did this all in 31 days.

 

[It's Not the Nanny]

ibyounger - The fact that she told CA and GA that they wouldn't be home the night of the 16th and showed up to TonE's without Caylee and never checked on a supposed alive Caylee (in the trunk) tells me Caylee was dead in the afternoon of the 16th. Great post!

 

[ibyoungr]

ibyounger - The fact that she told CA and GA that they wouldn't be home the night of the 16th and showed up to TonE's without Caylee and never checked on a supposed alive Caylee (in the trunk) tells me Caylee was dead in the afternoon of the 16th. Great post!

I tried to make each statement above in order of the "timeline". When it is put together in order and factual it is VERY INTERESTING.