Theories On What Happened to Caylee Part #5

[Mendara]

Carrying a question over from the ping thread...



A couple of thoughts along these lines...

1) JWG commented earlier about the potential that Casey had recently discovered the magic of cold medicine owing to the alleged story that Caylee was sick in late May (per Casey's text to Amy 'bout being @ the doctor, and Casey's response that Caylee was barely sneezing anymore). Worth noting that this emergent trip to the doctor coincidentally got Casey outta going to see the house she had been telling Amy they were going to rent...so...FWIW. I don't have the list of items recovered from G&C's handy to support/debunk an ample supply of suitable OTC's.

2) One might consider the scenario that Casey applied one dose...then...impatient with the delay of onsetting drowsiness...perhaps coupled w/ building rage over Cindy's failure to take her calls and bail her outta the situation...applied another... resulting in OD => and/or => applied duct tape to hasten silence (as suggested above).

3) IMHO, the key to knowing if this was a one-time practice vs. a recurring practice is knowing what Caylee's accomodations were 6/10-6/14. Pre-6/10, IMHO, the likelihood of the 'need' arising was less likely...not altogether zero as some have suggested/observed behavior @ Ricardo's that might suggest it was already going on...just less likely IMHO.

DAYUM that is spot on.

Do we know if there are any over the counter medicines that can cause the body to create and release chloroform after death?

 

[BondJamesBond]

Carrying over another post from the ping thread...

Perhaps Casey was at JBP during this inactivity time with Caylee, letting her play, while she waited for Cindy to return her call to drop Caylee off, that way she was close.

Personally, Intermezzo, IMHO, this fits very well somewhere in the cell inactivity.

For my way of thinking, Casey didn't set out to murder Caylee...she just wanted to incapacitate Caylee to serve her own selfish needs - damn the consequences.

Perhaps as a result of Cindy's failure to respond to her calls, Casey escalated into a rage and Caylee was drowsy but not asleep like Casey envisioned...'a little more dose'...and out came the duct tape.

 

[Rumpole]

DAYUM that is spot on.

Do we know if there are any over the counter medicines that can cause the body to create and release chloroform after death?

Chloroform IS one of the chemicals produced during human decomposition.

 

[BondJamesBond]

DAYUM that is spot on.

Do we know if there are any over the counter medicines that can cause the body to create and release chloroform after death?

...can't say 'bout it being enchanced by specific meds...but, can say that a decomposing human body in an enclosed (i.e. anaerobic) space (e.g. trunk, bag, etc.) does result in the increased production of chloroform.

IOW...the decomposing body itself in an oxygen-deprived environment produces chloroform at a rate greater than one decomposing in an oxygenated environment.

 

[It's Not the Nanny]

Bond - What about KC's supposed statement to George on her way out the door on the 16th saying she and Caylee wouldn't be home that night?


It's possible that GA had just heard it 10 million and 1 times from CA and used it as part of his own story.

I think your theory is very very possible and one of your best yet. :clap:

 

[roseofsharon]

Caylee wouldn't sleep for KC -- maybe crying -- and she was a very busy Mommy texting the day and night away, so lost her temper, applied a piece of duct tape, but didn't realize she cut off her airway. Found her dead, freaked out (thus all the cell calls) couldn't get anyone, so had to think of another plan. Continued to duct tape and concoct the ridiculous kidnap story. No one in her world would have motive or opportunity to commit this horrific crime other than herself.

This is my theory and opinion.

 

[Mendara]

...can't say 'bout it being enchanced by specific meds...but, can say that a decomposing human body in an enclosed (i.e. anaerobic) space (e.g. trunk, bag, etc.) does result in the production of chloroform.

IOW...the decomposing body itself in an oxygen-deprived environment produces chloroform.

Thank you Bond. In the reports from the lab the note was that there were unusually high amounts of chloroform, so I imagine they took into account the normal amount that is produced by a decomp body and felt the amount was too high to be normal, so my thinking is, is there a household agent or over the counter medicine that may increase the production of chloroform in the body.

I wish I knew these things.

 

[BondJamesBond]

Good point. Worth keeping in mind that body could have been dumped 24th but BEFORE gas can incident. Inspires me to consider whether or not KC might have dumped the body the previous day (23rd) before or after she ran out of gas nearby and AL helped her?

On 24th could have been retuning the cans (for a refill she could steal again at later date) on 24th as well as planning to clean car a bit.

FWIW...consider

1) On 6/20 Casey made NO attempt to establish if the coast was clear @ G&C's before she arrived there. No calls ahead of time.

2) On 6/23 Casey made NO attempt to estabilsh if the coast was clear @ G&C's before she arrived there. No calls ahead of time.

3) On 6/24 Casey pulled into the driveway (vs. backing in) - per JWG's observation

4) Worked out on the 6/23 ping thread in detail that Casey did not have the time/opportunity to dispose of the body on Surburban either before or after running outta gas.

 

[TexasLil]

Carrying over another post from the ping thread...



Personally, Intermezzo, IMHO, this fits very well somewhere in the cell inactivity.

For my way of thinking, Casey didn't set out to murder Caylee...she just wanted to incapacitate Caylee to serve her own selfish needs - damn the consequences.

Perhaps as a result of Cindy's failure to respond to her calls, Casey escalated into a rage and Caylee was drowsy but not asleep like Casey envisioned...'a little more dose'...and out came the duct tape.

Bond,

Sometimes cold medicine, especially given in higher doses, can have an adverse effect. Perhaps rather than Caylee becoming drowsy the med turned her into a bouncing off the walls, crying screaming little girl and Casey couldn't handle it. I think that's where the duct tape came in definitely.

Lil

 

[ibyoungr]

Bringing this over from the 6/16 Ping thread 'cause I was clogging it up w/ Q&A...



Based on the above there are ample opportunites for Casey to have stopped @ the CVS on the corner of Colonial & Goldenrod to purchase some OTC sedatives, driven over to a remote area on the west end of JBPark to dose Caylee between 6:34-7:06PM and transfer her into the trunk - as one example. A remote area in the Sutton Place apts. would have worked as well.

Continuing w/ this approach - depending on the dosage used - it would have taken several minutes for a any dose to take effect on Caylee. One must factor in that the 7:06PM pings aren't in the JBPark area, hence, travel time must be allowed. With travel time, one might speculate that the duct tape was used to expedite Caylee being quiet enough to transfer to the trunk @ JBPark in time to arrive near Tony's apartment ~7:06PM.

Just throwing out some options. P.S. Used the JBPark here to incorporate the notion that Casey inserted JBPark & 7PM in her handwritten statements, FWIW.

I like everything here but this is a slight alternative:

She killed Caylee in the home shortly after getting off the phone with Jesse. She was under a lot of pressure at this point. Mom wants her out, no job, Tony not ready to commit, lie to Amy about getting a house, pressure from Amy to get a place to live, no money and Caylee wakes up and is fussy. She gets fustrated as we have both seen Cindy and Casey do in recently released videos and she smothers the poor child. She had about 1 hour between 3 and 4 to do this. The flurry of calls were to Cindy to let her know they would not be home that night. She no longer needs a sitter. Casey, per George's FBI interview already told him she would not be home that night.
She left at 4:10, the 64 minutes could be explained by locating a place to dump the body, shopping at the nearby JCPenny, grabbing Birth control at the CVS, grabbing supper to take to Tony's or even to pick up some nerve-calming drugs from a possible drug contact that works at Lexus(?).

She called Cindy again and got through with the message she intended to get to her earlier...."Her and Caylee were not going to be home that night."

There was a possiblity that the drugging would have not lasted all night. Tony does not recall her going out to the car during the movie or at all the next morning. I think Caylee was dead before she went to BB without a doubt.

 

[BondJamesBond]

Bond - What about KC's supposed statement to George on her way out the door on the 16th saying she and Caylee wouldn't be home that night?

It's possible that GA had just heard it 10 million and 1 times from CA and used it as part of his own story.

IMHO, (see 6/9 vs. 6/16 thread in the case analysis forum for details) George's account better describes the events he witnessed 6/9 vs. 6/16...although, in George's defense...they days were very, very, very similar from his perspective. Recall on the 9th Casey & Caylee went to Ricardo's for the night.

I think your theory is very very possible and one of your best yet. :clap:

Thanks for the kind words.

 

[reeseeva]

Bond,

Sometimes cold medicine, especially given in higher doses, can have an adverse effect. Perhaps rather than Caylee becoming drowsy the med turned her into a bouncing off the walls, crying screaming little girl and Casey couldn't handle it. I think that's where the duct tape came in definitely.

Lil

Your post made me think about Annie D's interview, where she states twice that nobody but KC could even hold Caylee, as she would scream for her mother. Annie also stated that she had been around Caylee everyday & she still would not let her hold her, & would cry if KC walkied out of the room. Couple this with the book about temper tantrums found in her bedroom, KC trying to hook up with TonE, make plans, etc., I'm now wondering about an OTC drug like benedryl

 

[BondJamesBond]

Thank you Bond. In the reports from the lab the note was that there were unusually high amounts of chloroform, so I imagine they took into account the normal amount that is produced by a decomp body and felt the amount was too high to be normal, so my thinking is, is there a household agent or over the counter medicine that may increase the production of chloroform in the body.

I wish I knew these things.

Thanks, Mendara. I understand what you're getting at...

Early on, one of the WS actually got into an email dialogue w/ one of the experts that has been cited in the case. From seeing some of that dialogue I'm personally comfortable that the comments that were made about the level of chloroform being "unusually high" were misleading...because...there's no such thing as knowing what the "usual" level of chloroform should be under these circumstances. IOW...no body = no chloroform...OK. Body = chloroform...yes...how much should there be? Dunno.

 

[Rumpole]

Thanks, Mendara. I understand what you're getting at...

Early on, one of the WS actually got into an email dialogue w/ one of the experts that has been cited in the case. From seeing some of that dialogue I'm personally comfortable that the comments that were made about the level of chloroform being "unusually high" were misleading...because...there's no such thing as knowing what the "usual" level of chloroform should be under these circumstances. IOW...no body = no chloroform...OK. Body = chloroform...yes...how much should there be? Dunno.

The first 2 or 3 days of decomposition (exactly what we are considering here) involves proportionally more "anaerobic" reactions because the body is largely intact and reactions procede within the body itself. As time goes on the body disintegrates and so more air (oxygen) is involved in decomposition reactions. The reason the labs define their findings as being the result of early (2.6day) decomposition is precisely because the mixture of compounds includes the sort of proportions of chemicals (like chloroform, carbon tetrachloride, carbon disulfide, dimethyl trisulfide, dimethyldisulfide), that occur during the initial more anaerobic decomposition. Of course the confinement of the body within plastic bags and a closed trunk likely increases and prolongs the largely anaerobic conditions.

 

[BondJamesBond]

Bond,

Sometimes cold medicine, especially given in higher doses, can have an adverse effect. Perhaps rather than Caylee becoming drowsy the med turned her into a bouncing off the walls, crying screaming little girl and Casey couldn't handle it. I think that's where the duct tape came in definitely.

Lil

Hi Lil :wave:

I hadn't thought about that... Makes perfect sense to me.

 

[TexasLil]

Your post made me think about Annie D's interview, where she states twice that nobody but KC could even hold Caylee, as she would scream for her mother. Annie also stated that she had been around Caylee everyday & she still would not let her hold her, & would cry if KC walkied out of the room. Couple this with the book about temper tantrums found in her bedroom, KC trying to hook up with TonE, make plans, etc., I'm now wondering about an OTC drug like benedryl

Consider this:

Symptoms of Benadryl overdose may include:
Central nervous system depression or stimulation, especially in children, dry mouth, fixed, dilated pupils, flushing, stomach and intestinal symptoms

 

[TexasLil]

Hi Lil :wave:

I hadn't thought about that... Makes perfect sense to me.

:blowkiss:

 

[BondJamesBond]

...just to provoke the thought...

Consider IF George's account was of 6/9...(be working late...blah, blah)

George's RARE cell call to Casey 6/16 @ 3:04PM (after Casey supposedly left for work) was perhaps about Cindy refusing to take care of Caylee

Recall the effects of the 6/15 between Cindy and Casey prolly carried over into the morning of 6/16. Cindy and Casey may not have been on speaking terms. Soo...perhaps before Casey left G&C's she asked George if he'd break the ice w/ Cindy 'bout keeping Caylee that night...and George called back @ 3:04PM to say he'd spoken w/ Cindy and she said NFW. We've seen Cindy's temperment haven't we...esp. after a fight w/ Casey...I can envision this happening.

Now that I believe we have George & Cindy's cell records and/or home phone records perhaps we can sleuth this out, eh?

 

[Rumpole]

FWIW...consider

1) On 6/20 Casey made NO attempt to establish if the coast was clear @ G&C's before she arrived there. No calls ahead of time.

2) On 6/23 Casey made NO attempt to estabilsh if the coast was clear @ G&C's before she arrived there. No calls ahead of time.

3) On 6/24 Casey pulled into the driveway (vs. backing in) - per JWG's observation

4) Worked out on the 6/23 ping thread in detail that Casey did not have the time/opportunity to dispose of the body on Surburban either before or after running outta gas.

Don't want to be too argumentative with a double "0" but.....
KC was in the area in her car. A quick stop and dump body is surely possible. I imagine there are incentives to stop and get it done within seconds. KC was there abouts. Running out of gas, ringing Tony, walking. I can't see how she could not have had a few seconds to dump a body? It could have been several minutes and still not condradicted known info.

I think regardless of exact details, most theories include Caylee's body being either removed from the trunk or bagged well enough to prevent decomposition products from leaking into the trunk, by the 20th at the very latest? Some would say the body was dumped even earlier. If the body was just "well bagged" by the 20th and left in the trunk it would only require a matter of seconds to stop, lift body from trunk and dump a few steps away.

 

[Intermezzo]

Carrying over another post from the ping thread...



Personally, Intermezzo, IMHO, this fits very well somewhere in the cell inactivity.

For my way of thinking, Casey didn't set out to murder Caylee...she just wanted to incapacitate Caylee to serve her own selfish needs - damn the consequences.
Perhaps as a result of Cindy's failure to respond to her calls, Casey escalated into a rage and Caylee was drowsy but not asleep like Casey envisioned...'a little more dose'...and out came the duct tape.

Even with the searches for neck breaking, self-defence, chloroform searches..etc...I'm not totally on board with pre-meditation to kill Caylee...

As a woman, self-defense and neck breaking searches could be for personal protection...I don't believe we haven't seen all the computer forensics tying the searches together yet,

Chloroform searches can fit ...drugging Caylee