Theories On What Happened to Caylee Part #6 (New Smoking Gun Theories for DP)

[Jolynna]

oh ya! i forgot about those paper towels from target!
when was the video taken?? i wonder if it's the same paper towels!?
same brand? etc....that would be interesting...

i have wondered about the vaccuums and also about those spray canisters (ones used to spray fruit trees etc...taken from A's home) the report isn't out on those is it?

and why the heck would she not throw out the garbage from the car??? talk about damning .....

The videos of KC buying paper towels at Target were in reference to KC's check issuing charges. KC didn't steal Amy's checks until Amy went to PR the morning of July 8.

KC's car was towed on June 30. It couldn't be the same paper towels KC was caught on video buying.

 

[doobiedoo52]

I've asked this question before but have never gotten an answer. The paper towels that were tested and found to contain decomp fluid---were they from the bag that was tossed out along with the pizza at the impound lot? I am thinking they must have been since they were tested due to the fly activity and the presence of pupae. If so, could this have caused the smell on its own, if the body was only in the trunk for a very short time after death? I am just trying to figure out if the body had to actually be in there to form the smell or if the fluid on the paper towels would be enough to cause it. Any ideas?

 

[ElaineG]

There was a toxicology test done on the bone it was negative

http://www.wftv.com/pdf/19801498/detail.html

http://www.wftv.com/news/19802223/detail.html

 

[MAMABEAR]

I'm waiting to see if there was tox testing on the bone marrow. Could these results be the smoking gun the prosecution is holding close to the chest? I can't believe with all the careful testing this would be left out. It would be like a job left undone and we know how careful and thorough LE has been. On a lighter note I was thinking how kool it would be if LE were able to access the satellite in space, that can read license plates from space could be used showing just where KC was for that wk. It would be very expensive and other cases would be demanding the same type of investigating techniques. Oh Well, one can only wish.

Was there any bone marrow left. I member talk here at W/S that there wouldn't be any left. I don't know. Just something from memory. Couldn't find it if I had to. And I will get on the "wish list" wid you about satellite in space thang.

 

[debbie0604]

I'm waiting to see if there was tox testing on the bone marrow. Could these results be the smoking gun the prosecution is holding close to the chest? I can't believe with all the careful testing this would be left out. It would be like a job left undone and we know how careful and thorough LE has been. On a lighter note I was thinking how kool it would be if LE were able to access the satellite in space, that can read license plates from space could be used showing just where KC was for that wk. It would be very expensive and other cases would be demanding the same type of investigating techniques. Oh Well, one can only wish.

IIRC there was tox testing done on the bone marrow and it was negative. Tox screens at autopsy are not very reliable unless they are performed on fresh specimens very soon after death because it goes through a process called autolysis (or "self destruction") - it's part of the decomposition. Pathologists usually collect tox screens from the heart, eye, or liver. These organs were not present, so they tried to collect tox from the hair, cranial cavity and bone marrow and it was negative (which they expected it to be) because the tissue was not fresh. (IIRC).

 

[nephers]

The videos of KC buying paper towels at Target were in reference to KC's check issuing charges. KC didn't steal Amy's checks until Amy went to PR the morning of July 8.

KC's car was towed on June 30. It couldn't be the same paper towels KC was caught on video buying.

Ah, you are correct. I had forgotten those were bought later. Wouldn't it have been great if they could have been linked? Bummer!

 

[magic-cat]

Other then the duct tape. Could Casey's finger prints being on something else. Like the child's book found with the remains. Casey put her in that laundry bag. Casey put that book in there to with other things. I am sure that book would have had some finger prints on the book cover.

There was no childs book listed in any of the inventories of what was found with Caylee.

I respectfully disagree. As I have stated a number of times, I believe this could have been a postmortem attempt to stop the fluids that would have been issuing from the nose and mouth. Which would have been more than a trivial act to accomplish. I don't think it is safe to assume the tape was placed either antemortem or perimortem. My disclaimer here is that either of us could be right, but that would also be my point.

Have you ever tried to stick duct tape to something that was damp or wet? It won't stick. Also there is that pesky little problem of the other orifices through which fluids would also have been leaking, and more horribly than all of this, with the natural draining orifices taped shut like that it could have sped the gasses inside of the body to blow out and THAT would have been a real mess for Miss Casey to deal with. I get sick even thinking about that! Also by the time fluids are leaking/draining from the mouth and nose, decomp is well under way and the report is very specific on this point-the tape was placed prior to decomp beginning.

I believe you are right! I posted some info on the duct tape thread. I always wondered when my real life "tragedy" could come in handy. I was tuct taped on my eyes, mouth and nose while being kidnapped and raped. I was duct taped to a bed with my face covered in duct tape. My hair was matted on the back of my head and the tape and matting had to be cut out. This was from the struggle, rape and moving my head side to side. It would not come off by pulling no matter how hard I tried. The only way to breathe was to keep my composure, move my lips so the tape would release from my nose. With Caylee being not quite 3 ,I just don't think she had the problem solving skills to survive this horrible crime. Justice for Caylee.

Oh My God-bless your soul for having the courage to share that with others and to add such valid enlightenment to this similar incident with Caylee. You are a true hero!:blowkiss:

Great thread, thanks! :clap:

This may be a bit O/T but can you imagine the prosecutor bringing in a toddler-size mannequin to visually demonstrate the manner (layered) in which the duct tape was found to be applied to little Caylee Marie Anthony's mouth and nose per the testimony/findings of the medical examiner? Seriously I don't know if this kind of a demonstration would be allowed but dressed in an outfit similar to what was recovered with the remains (shorts and a tee shirt and NO SHOES) it could be very helpful/effective. Either way, we know they have pictures that can/will be used as well as Caylee's actuall skull though I don't know if they would actually bring that (the skull) into the courtroom.

Thoughts anyone?

The skull, as part of the remains, would have been cremated along with the rest of Caylee.

This is a great thread! I have been away for a while from this case - it became too much for me emotionally.

Duct tape is waterproof so I'm not so sure it wouldn't stick to wet things. However, the autopsy stated that the tape was placed before decomp so I'm not arguing your point with you.

I think the matting of the hair could also be from where her body lay on the ground (in the bags) and the decomp fluids matted the hair. That thoroughly disgusts me to think about.

My thought though -- since I haven't caught up on all the threads -- has anything been released regarding the section of KC's mattress and the section of the wall that was removed (or was that all not true)? Maybe they have some bodily fluids on the mattress?

I pray that KC gets what she deserves! She is one sick 'b'. :bang:

Duct tape is waterproof, but it will NOT stick to wet surfaces. I have used it to put up plastic on sun porces etc, and any wetness and the tape is useless. There could not have been any moisture on that baby's face when she put that tape there. I hope she knocked her out with something else before she did that because the alternative, well, it warrants the death penalty with NO room for doubt!:furious:

 

[beach]

I've asked this question before but have never gotten an answer. The paper towels that were tested and found to contain decomp fluid---were they from the bag that was tossed out along with the pizza at the impound lot? I am thinking they must have been since they were tested due to the fly activity and the presence of pupae. If so, could this have caused the smell on its own, if the body was only in the trunk for a very short time after death? I am just trying to figure out if the body had to actually be in there to form the smell or if the fluid on the paper towels would be enough to cause it. Any ideas?

Yes, those are the same paper towels. The trash bag they were found in was from TL's apt. and subsequently placed in KC's trunk. Not sure if they alone could have caused the odor.

 

[DAWN TREADER]

In the Laci/Conner Peterson murders, all that remained of her body after @4 months of being submerged in the SF Bay was her skeletalized torso. No skull. No arms. No Legs. What was extraordinary was the fact both bodies washed ashore in an area where the now-convicted-double-murderer Scott Peterson was known to have been the day Laci and Conner disappeared. No smoking gun per se - just a veritable "mountain" of circumstantial evidence, including the finding/recovery of the bodies which upon positive identification led to SP being apprehended and arrested. In this case, it appears Casey Anthony could face a virtual tsunami of circumstantial evidence. There is much yet to be revealed IMO (e.g. Cindy Anthony's credit card statements).

 

[kew17]

I've asked this question before but have never gotten an answer. The paper towels that were tested and found to contain decomp fluid---were they from the bag that was tossed out along with the pizza at the impound lot? I am thinking they must have been since they were tested due to the fly activity and the presence of pupae. If so, could this have caused the smell on its own, if the body was only in the trunk for a very short time after death? I am just trying to figure out if the body had to actually be in there to form the smell or if the fluid on the paper towels would be enough to cause it. Any ideas?

:wave: Hi doobiedoo!
Yes, It is my understanding the paper towels were from inside the white plastic trash bag recovered from the dumpster after being thrown out from the inside of KC's trunk at the towyard. It is with that sentence, that I think the defense will argue that since the bag had left contact with the vehicle for a period of time, no matter how short, it did leave the car prior to being recovered by LE. It allows for a short period of time for someone else to put paper towels in it that just so happen to be covered in human decomp material. I don't buy that reasonable doubt, but a juror might.

 

[RubyB]

http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-a...llowed-to-see/

I wanted to bring this link over from the Astro forum. Props to salvarenga for finding it and posting it there. I'm no WM fan, but what she writes here is so very true. The SA office has info that they have no intention of sharing with the public until trial, Sunshine Laws notwithstanding. And you can bet your bottom dollar that it's the stuff that will nail KC cold. If released to the media before trial, it would only serve to taint the potential jury pool. While it's a great pass time to speculate what it is that they've got, all it is right now is speculation.

There's a saying, "It ain't meat til it's on the table." It applies here. We can all speculate "Where's the beef?", but rest assured that the SA will set the table and serve it to us, all in good time.

 

[cecybeans]

Thanks everyone for putting all kinds of wonderful ideas together on this and helping us review what we actually know (or wish we knew).

I understand that duct tape will not stick to a wet surface, BUT what if it was a single length tightly wound around the face several times so that it was a) sticking to itself the second or third times it was wound around and b) the hair in the back of the head acted as an anchor point because it was not wet?

I tend to agree with the ME suggestions that this was put on either antemortem/perimortem - or if it was post mortem it was soon afterward. But I was just wondering if the fact the hair was involved (and maybe the knot portion in the back was her ponytail? Certainly a rubber band or little scrunchy could have easily disintegrated or been carted off by critters for a nest which is why it might not have survived) and ALSO the tape was wrapped way too many times than would be necessary, and very tightly it would seem, might also allow for it to have been done post-mortem at a bit later date?

Also, even though duct tape was unnecessary - if the original point of her staging the body was to make it look like a kidnapping if she was found later (in some corny One Tree Hill or cheesy TV kind of way), she may have done that just to make it look like Caylee had initially been abducted by a stranger (who would need to duct tape their own child?)

We've certainly got lots to think about and lots of scenarios to consider, that's for sure!

 

[weasel]

Duct tape over the mouth and the nose-thus blocking all air passages and placed pre-death-prior to decomposition beginning. I think this will be one of the bullets from the gun...who tapes their baby's entire face "shut" like that? A loving mother? Nope...GUILTY!

I second the applause on your opening post. Totally awesome!

bolded by me

I don't believe it can be proven that the duct tape was placed pre-death. The report says prior to decomp. It does not say "placed pre-death". Therefore the tape could have been applied after death in a "staging" effort, but prior to decomp actually beginning.

 

[CarolinaMoon]

Thanks everyone for putting all kinds of wonderful ideas together on this and helping us review what we actually know (or wish we knew).

I understand that duct tape will not stick to a wet surface, BUT what if it was a single length tightly wound around the face several times so that it was a) sticking to itself the second or third times it was wound around and b) the hair in the back of the head acted as an anchor point because it was not wet?

I tend to agree with the ME suggestions that this was put on either antemortem/perimortem - or if it was post mortem it was soon afterward. But I was just wondering if the fact the hair was involved (and maybe the knot portion in the back was her ponytail? Certainly a rubber band or little scrunchy could have easily disintegrated or been carted off by critters for a nest which is why it might not have survived) and ALSO the tape was wrapped way too many times than would be necessary, and very tightly it would seem, might also allow for it to have been done post-mortem at a bit later date?

Also, even though duct tape was unnecessary - if the original point of her staging the body was to make it look like a kidnapping if she was found later (in some corny One Tree Hill or cheesy TV kind of way), she may have done that just to make it look like Caylee had initially been abducted by a stranger (who would need to duct tape their own child?)

We've certainly got lots to think about and lots of scenarios to consider, that's for sure!

cecybeans, I mainly agree with you with the exception of the duct tape. I don't have the reports handy, but I do recall that the tape wasn't wrapped totally around the skull. There were pieces of duct tape which went across the face and was attatched to the hair on either side.

I believe the mass of hair originated with the pony tail Caylee usually wore.

 

[Trailerparkgirl]

I've asked this question before but have never gotten an answer. The paper towels that were tested and found to contain decomp fluid---were they from the bag that was tossed out along with the pizza at the impound lot? I am thinking they must have been since they were tested due to the fly activity and the presence of pupae. If so, could this have caused the smell on its own, if the body was only in the trunk for a very short time after death? I am just trying to figure out if the body had to actually be in there to form the smell or if the fluid on the paper towels would be enough to cause it. Any ideas?

here's my take on that:

just from reading eye witness' testimony (ie george and others) the smell was SO BAD that it kinda blew u away...so i think caylee was in that trunk for a few days, the paper towels would cause that smell but not enough to blow u away days/ months later....
the paper towels were in a plastic bag too, closed up...
i think the smell was the body being in the trunk decomposing...

i mentioned this story before, and it really doesnt compare, but just to give u an idea...
we found a dead mouse in a pail in my mom's garage...it was about 3 days in that pail....OMG the smelll was killing us, and we didnt know where it was coming from!!! even leaving the garage door open all day, it reeked!
imagine how bad that car smelled...

 

[Pattymarie]

While everyone is contributing amazingly to this thread...I just have to wonder if there is something that points to something more than an accidental death. The DP was put back on the table...even after the medical examiner stated "homicide by undetermined means" which still leaves room for the defense to argue that Caylee died accidentally...if there was any piece of evidence and we are all speculating here...what would it be that would make a jury think that her death was no an accident...not cleaning up after the fact, not disposing of her remains...not even the duct tape...what would be a "smoking gun" that would keep the defense from arguing that Caylee died accidentally and therefore, there is no reason to keep the DP on the table. The DP is on the table for a reason. I threw out a note (subjective and not proven anywhere) from KC to Caylee..what if Caylee tried to fight through the duct tape and her prints or tiny fingernails were on it...there has to be something more...imo...but I could be wrong. I was just using the duct tape and evidence of a "struggle" as one reason...

There is a lot of computer/cell phone forensic evidence, lots of scientific evidence and lots of circumstantial evidence.

What we don't have is a body found sooner to prove murder, a witness or a confession.

BTW....i always thought it was strange the during the act of killing, bagging up the body, driving around with it for a few days, borrowing items like shovels, gas and then disposing of the body that NOT ONE person saw her do any of these things. The only eyewitness to any of the above, I think, is the neighbor who saw her uncharacteristically back the car into the garage.

How could she have done all of this and not one single person saw any of it?

 

[rosiegirl04]

There is a lot of computer/cell phone forensic evidence, lots of scientific evidence and lots of circumstantial evidence.

What we don't have is a body found sooner to prove murder, a witness or a confession.

BTW....i always thought it was strange the during the act of killing, bagging up the body, driving around with it for a few days, borrowing items like shovels, gas and then disposing of the body that NOT ONE person saw her do any of these things. The only eyewitness to any of the above, I think, is the neighbor who saw her uncharacteristically back the car into the garage.

How could she have done all of this and not one single person saw any of it?

because shes a sneaky little @itch!!!!!!!!!

 

[Bittiness39]

There is a lot of computer/cell phone forensic evidence, lots of scientific evidence and lots of circumstantial evidence.

What we don't have is a body found sooner to prove murder, a witness or a confession.

BTW....i always thought it was strange the during the act of killing, bagging up the body, driving around with it for a few days, borrowing items like shovels, gas and then disposing of the body that NOT ONE person saw her do any of these things. The only eyewitness to any of the above, I think, is the neighbor who saw her uncharacteristically back the car into the garage.

How could she have done all of this and not one single person saw any of it?

ITA with all of your points. I just feel as though the SA has a lot more nails to put in KC's coffin and I do think that there were/are items that were found with the remains that indicate that her guilt in a murder. That show/shows that Caylee didn't say accidentally drown in the pool or something that day...that KC found her...it was too late to save her so KC panicked, duct taped her mouth shut to stage an abduction type scenario triple bagged her, etc...threw her in the trunk for a few days and then ditched the body.
I just think that yes, the totality/mountain of circumstantial evidence the SA has against her is damning and hopefully, the jury will find her guilty.
I also wonder why it is that no one saw her dump the body at least...but people who have seen and described the scene to me have said it is pretty remote...there is not a lot of traffic...she could have done it very very quickly.

I just think that the SA has their own way of counteracting a possible defense strategy of saying that Caylee died accidentally and KC didn't kill her. JMO. KC has really put her defense between a rock and a hard place...by that I mean, the zanny the nanny story has to be thrown out (they would be total fools to go with that anymore)...they can't very well say anymore that Caylee was in someone else's car trunk...(we know she was in the car trunk of the Sunfire and that her remains were being driven around by KC who KNEW Caylee was in that trunk)...we know that after Caylee left KC's trunk Caylee's remains were dumped only one time (her final resting place and coincidentally a place where KC would hang out with friends and bury her pets)...the defense has a few strategies if they don't want to plead guilty to take the DP off...
1. GA/CA did it and KC is covering for them. Since CA went to work all of the time and LA was gone during critical parts of this timeline...this leaves only GA to throw under the bus...However, I feel that the totality of the evidence that the SA has against KC will counteract any accusations that the Defense will throw at any of her family members, former friends and MANY former lovers.
2. KC is insane. Good luck with that one.
3. The zanny the nanny did it. Nope. Not going to work. That story will just motivate the hardworking tax paying jury pool to kill KC faster.
4. It was an accident. Caylee drowned in the pool. KC was in the house and busy on the phone and not paying attention. KC panicked because Caylee was dead and could not be saved so she duct taped her up...threw her in the bags, threw the bagged baby into the trunk...and then calmly went with Tony to Blockbuster's...with her dead baby in the trunk?
5. KC wanted to hang out with Tony. Her parents weren't going to babysit. There was no "nanny" so she drugged Caylee and threw her in the trunk with her blanket to shut her up and then after a period of time realized she was dead? Duct taped her mouth to shut her screaming? When did the heart shaped sticker get on there? Why did she wrap the tape around her whole head if she intended to take the tape off later? DIdn't she realize how hard it would be to get that tape off of her hair?

Is it more likely, that KC killed her? It all harms us...but likely Caylee suffered. KC felt nothing. Caylee meant about as much to KC as her favorite outfit or lipstick. And is it also likely, and the reason for this thread, that the SA could have a piece of evidence either found at the home or with the remains that could negate whatever direction that the defense tries to go in (the ones I listed above) and keep the jury from buying any of the theories that the defense will try to be selling.
Plead her guilty and end this nonsense.

 

[debbie0604]

I've asked this question before but have never gotten an answer. The paper towels that were tested and found to contain decomp fluid---were they from the bag that was tossed out along with the pizza at the impound lot? I am thinking they must have been since they were tested due to the fly activity and the presence of pupae. If so, could this have caused the smell on its own, if the body was only in the trunk for a very short time after death? I am just trying to figure out if the body had to actually be in there to form the smell or if the fluid on the paper towels would be enough to cause it. Any ideas?

The smell in the car was from the poor baby's body. A dead body will begin decomposing fairly rapidly after death, and in FL, particularly in the trunk of a car in the middle of a very hot summer, it will decompose VERY RAPIDLY. The smell in the car wasn't from the paper towels. It was from that poor baby's body. If ya ever smell a dead body, ya never forget it and you'll always be able to recognize it if you ever smell it again too.

Nope, it wasn't the paper towels. KC should really get the needle for this.

 

[Jolynna]

bolded by me

I don't believe it can be proven that the duct tape was placed pre-death. The report says prior to decomp. It does not say "placed pre-death". Therefore the tape could have been applied after death in a "staging" effort, but prior to decomp actually beginning.

You are in very bad shape if your hired paid expert, who is trying to make you look as good as possible, says you could have duct taped your dead baby's mouth shut and put multiple layers of tape over the baby's face and mouth to frame somebody else.

That's the best alternative Spitz could come up with to Casey being a deliberate killer?

IMO