Theories On What Happened to Caylee Part #6 (New Smoking Gun Theories for DP)

[Jolynna]

There is a lot of computer/cell phone forensic evidence, lots of scientific evidence and lots of circumstantial evidence.

What we don't have is a body found sooner to prove murder, a witness or a confession.

BTW....i always thought it was strange the during the act of killing, bagging up the body, driving around with it for a few days, borrowing items like shovels, gas and then disposing of the body that NOT ONE person saw her do any of these things. The only eyewitness to any of the above, I think, is the neighbor who saw her uncharacteristically back the car into the garage.

How could she have done all of this and not one single person saw any of it?

Most people have jobs to go to.

Some suburbs are ghost towns during the day.

 

[cecybeans]

cecybeans, I mainly agree with you with the exception of the duct tape. I don't have the reports handy, but I do recall that the tape wasn't wrapped totally around the skull. There were pieces of duct tape which went across the face and was attatched to the hair on either side.

I believe the mass of hair originated with the pony tail Caylee usually wore.

Thanks for bringing that up - I read the report but did not get that specific impression, so if that is correct, it brings up another important point.

For KC to have not simply wrapped one long piece of duct tape around Caylee's head, but to have used several shorter pieces, it makes me think two things.

Obviously she needed a cutting tool of some sort - I have a terrible time ripping duct tape manually - it's just too stretchy. I suppose it could be done, but at least forensic testing will most likely tell us that. I can't remember if scissors or other cutting utensils were taken from the car. I know that CA found a dinner knife and cleaned it, but I was never sure if it was a sharp one that could cut tape or more of a butter knife.

If KC had the time to cut several strips of duct tape, it may also show that it was a staging effect because if KC was simply trying to shut up a live child and was acting on angry impulse, I'd have thought she would just take the roll and keep tightly wrapping it tightly around her nose and mouth. Taking the time to cut separate strips and apply them means one of two things: if she was alive, this was premeditated; she would have had to cut them first to apply them quickly and in succession without Caylee trying to rip them off.

If they were applied perimortem/postmortem then this was also a very deliberate and calculated effort to stage a kidnapping.

Either way it looks less like impulse and more like the "SLB" ("spiteful little *****") effect.

 

[kew17]

LittleBitty:
I like most of your recent post, but have a question. Is there evidence that says the body was only moved once? I don't remember reading that. I know we've drawn several different scenarios though. Could you point me to that if it exists? Thanx a mil....:blowkiss:

 

[doobiedoo52]

The smell in the car was from the poor baby's body. A dead body will begin decomposing fairly rapidly after death, and in FL, particularly in the trunk of a car in the middle of a very hot summer, it will decompose VERY RAPIDLY. The smell in the car wasn't from the paper towels. It was from that poor baby's body. If ya ever smell a dead body, ya never forget it and you'll always be able to recognize it if you ever smell it again too.

Nope, it wasn't the paper towels. KC should really get the needle for this.

BTW--um yes I have smelled a dead body--my dad was a mortician--seriously.

 

[Bittiness39]

LittleBitty:
I like most of your recent post, but have a question. Is there evidence that says the body was only moved once? I don't remember reading that. I know we've drawn several different scenarios though. Could you point me to that if it exists? Thanx a mil....:blowkiss:

I was going by the recent release of the autopsy report and the two other reports released with it. Given the state that the bags were in...the fact that plants were growing through the bags and the remains (sad)...there is more...but I feel that as soon as Caylee's body was removed from the trunk and put in the woods where her remains were later found (final resting place) I don't think that the remains were disturbed once they had been placed there.
There is the possibility as I discussed with cecy that she initially placed Caylee in just the two garbage bags...figured out that they were leaking...backed her car into the garage, borrowed the shovel...intended to dig a hole in the backyard and bury her but the ground was too tough...her mom would be home in a few short hours...no way to dig the hole because of tough soil/bamboo/etc...and the fact that KC was lazy...so she then lifts the body out of the trunk and puts it in the Whitney Laundry bag with the two handles...does this in the garage...probably put the bag right next to the trunk...and hoisted the double bagged remains into the Laundry bag. Drives to Suburban and dumps the whole deal in the woods.

But my question is...DC, Kronk, etc...were all looking for what appeared to be trash bags. This bag, this laundry bag looks different. It is square in shape and tall...I don't know. That is the part of it that confuses me. The bag itself is lined...and likely there would have been less decomposition fluids in the car trunk had her double bagged remains been in there from the begining...

 

[kew17]

Thanx LittleBitty. That clarifies for me what you meant and I agree. I'm not so sure though, how many times the body was moved prior to being placed on Suburban Dr. (ie: from house to trunk, from trunk to backyard, to trunk to JB Park and a whole host of options in that respect) Thanks for the clear up!

 

[celticthyme]

There is a lot of computer/cell phone forensic evidence, lots of scientific evidence and lots of circumstantial evidence.
EXACTLY!
Respectfully snipped

How could she have done all of this and not one single person saw any of it?

And much of the cell phone evidence tells us that this woman rarely slept. She so easily could have bagged the baby, tossed her at the end on the street in the middle of the night, no school, normal peeps are sleeping . .
She was sneaky enough to know people's habits, and those of the neighborhood, I would suspect . .
But i understand what you mean, & agree with most of it ... from one Patricia Marie to another

 

[celticthyme]

I don't think that the remains were disturbed once they had been placed there.
There is the possibility as I discussed with cecy that she initially placed Caylee in just the two garbage bags...figured out that they were leaking...backed her car into the garage, borrowed the shovel...intended to dig a hole in the backyard and bury her but the ground was too tough...her mom would be home in a few short hours...no way to dig the hole because of tough soil/bamboo/etc...and the fact that KC was lazy...so she then lifts the body out of the trunk and puts it in the Whitney Laundry bag with the two handles...does this in the garage...probably put the bag right next to the trunk...and hoisted the double bagged remains into the Laundry bag. Drives to Suburban and dumps the whole deal in the woods. ITA

But my question is...DC, Kronk, etc...were all looking for what appeared to be trash bags.

This bag, this laundry bag looks different. It is square in shape and tall...I don't know. That is the part of it that confuses me. The bag itself is lined...and likely there would have been less decomposition fluids in the car trunk had her double bagged remains been in there from the begining...

LittleBitty, do you think DC or Kronk saw them or disturbed/moved them when he was there in any way? I've always wondered about this?

 

[Nore]

I was going by the recent release of the autopsy report and the two other reports released with it. Given the state that the bags were in...the fact that plants were growing through the bags and the remains (sad)...there is more...but I feel that as soon as Caylee's body was removed from the trunk and put in the woods where her remains were later found (final resting place) I don't think that the remains were disturbed once they had been placed there.
There is the possibility as I discussed with cecy that she initially placed Caylee in just the two garbage bags...figured out that they were leaking...backed her car into the garage, borrowed the shovel...intended to dig a hole in the backyard and bury her but the ground was too tough...her mom would be home in a few short hours...no way to dig the hole because of tough soil/bamboo/etc...and the fact that KC was lazy...so she then lifts the body out of the trunk and puts it in the Whitney Laundry bag with the two handles...does this in the garage...probably put the bag right next to the trunk...and hoisted the double bagged remains into the Laundry bag. Drives to Suburban and dumps the whole deal in the woods.

But my question is...DC, Kronk, etc...were all looking for what appeared to be trash bags. This bag, this laundry bag looks different. It is square in shape and tall...I don't know. That is the part of it that confuses me. The bag itself is lined...and likely there would have been less decomposition fluids in the car trunk had her double bagged remains been in there from the begining...

---------
This is just a thought I have. I feel that Caylee was murdered inside the house.KC knew she'd have to act pronto so she took her outside,backed the car in and placed her in the trunk,no bags etc..I dont think she realized what happpens to a body after death,she kept her there til the smell started then placed her in the bags and began to think of where to put her.Out of desparation she put her in her favorite burial place.There Caylee remained until she was found.I wish we could have seen the look on KC's face when she opened the trunk,no one to scream too either. Rot KC.Rot.

 

[CarolinaMoon]

Thanks for bringing that up - I read the report but did not get that specific impression, so if that is correct, it brings up another important point.

For KC to have not simply wrapped one long piece of duct tape around Caylee's head, but to have used several shorter pieces, it makes me think two things.

Obviously she needed a cutting tool of some sort - I have a terrible time ripping duct tape manually - it's just too stretchy. I suppose it could be done, but at least forensic testing will most likely tell us that. I can't remember if scissors or other cutting utensils were taken from the car. I know that CA found a dinner knife and cleaned it, but I was never sure if it was a sharp one that could cut tape or more of a butter knife.

If KC had the time to cut several strips of duct tape, it may also show that it was a staging effect because if KC was simply trying to shut up a live child and was acting on angry impulse, I'd have thought she would just take the roll and keep tightly wrapping it tightly around her nose and mouth. Taking the time to cut separate strips and apply them means one of two things: if she was alive, this was premeditated; she would have had to cut them first to apply them quickly and in succession without Caylee trying to rip them off.

If they were applied perimortem/postmortem then this was also a very deliberate and calculated effort to stage a kidnapping.

Either way it looks less like impulse and more like the "SLB" ("spiteful little *****") effect.

True! I have to tell you, though, that I never have to use a tool to cut duct tape (and I use it a lot). I have a system to do it. I won't go into details, but I use fingers from both hands to start the tear and it rips quite smoothly.

If the first piece of duct tape got into Caylee's hair, the toddler never could have tried to remove it without great pain... it would pull the hair out by the roots. I envision a Casey in a rage constantly pulling pieces of duct tape and adding it... pure rage, nothing more. The first piece (assuming Caylee was alive), would cause the child to try and remove it. Casey puts on the next piece, the next piece, the next piece, until Caylee stops trying.

 

[static]

I have to wonder if DC plays into the decision, as well as some of the forensics we have not seen. Did his phone records indicate he was talking to a case player during his infamous video in the woods? Was LE able to "compel" him to talk? Maybe he told LE that someone close to KC was "told" by her where the body was.

Here is one smoking gun scenario: DC is talking to LA. LA knew where he should look, but LA did not have that info directly from KC-He found the info amongst KC's things (missing diary pages? a computer file?) Tells DC about where he found the info (DC asks a lot of questions and could have assured LA that he had confidentiality with KC), and DC ultimately tells police.
Now DC's lawyer is back-tracking, trying to get DC's communications sealed.ETA: The police would have to have the diary pages/solid info for it to be a true smoking gun, so I will just tuck this stinky one into my theory pocket!

I do not believe they have released whatever that syringe in that toilet paper roll was...Hoping, Hoping, they have some fingerprints that match KC's...Don't you think that if it was nothing, they would have included that in the reports somewhere? If someone has seen that the syringe was looked at , please let me know. To this day I do not think anything on it has been released. JMO

 

[beach]

You are in very bad shape if your hired paid expert, who is trying to make you look as good as possible, says you could have duct taped your dead baby's mouth shut and put multiple layers of tape over the baby's face and mouth to frame somebody else.

That's the best alternative Spitz could come up with to Casey being a deliberate killer?

IMO

:clap::clap::clap:

Well said, Jolynna!


I don't even come close to buying the theories that the duct tape was applied to frame anyone else or that is was applied to stop decomp fluid from leaking. I don't think the jury will either.

 

[momtective]

True! I have to tell you, though, that I never have to use a tool to cut duct tape (and I use it a lot). I have a system to do it. I won't go into details, but I use fingers from both hands to start the tear and it rips quite smoothly.

If the first piece of duct tape got into Caylee's hair, the toddler never could have tried to remove it without great pain... it would pull the hair out by the roots. I envision a Casey in a rage constantly pulling pieces of duct tape and adding it... pure rage, nothing more. The first piece (assuming Caylee was alive), would cause the child to try and remove it. Casey puts on the next piece, the next piece, the next piece, until Caylee stops trying.

Pulling this over from the Duct Tape thread http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=79908&page=28
Originally Posted by FairNBalanced View Post

I can post pics now! Not sure I did this right, but as I said in another post...if WE have Henkel duct tape, it must be VERY common LOL We live 30 minutes from the Anthony's...who knows...we may even shop at the same Home Depot. IMO, There is no way anyone is tearing this tape with their bare hands or teeth. Need scissors or a knife...it's really tough.
............................................................................................

With that said, there is no way she placed that tape on a wiggling, screaming, live kid, NO way! Caylee must have been knocked out with something (cold medicine or something) that would leave no traces. If she was alive she most certainly was not awake when KC put that tape on her head and mouth. JMHO

 

[Queenofwands]

I suspect LE has the missing diary pages...

 

[Queenofwands]

***respecfully snipped***
is it a possibility that the SA put the DP back on the table (without a definitive cause of death) because KC left a note with Caylee's remains?

Now THAT is an intriguing thought, LittleBit! I wonder though if the paper would not have deteriorated completely in the conditions the remains were found in?

 

[Kathy1964]

The "smoking gun " I am hoping for:
I don't think I have seen a report on the duct tape yet. We have heard a few things,but they didn't say there were NO prints! I believe we heard that there were no prints from Cindy, George or Lee (and I don't know who said that). I don't think they said anything about KC. So, i am hoping they do have her prints on the tape.
Has anyone seen a duct tape report?
Katharine

 

[Kentjbkent]

For KC to have not simply wrapped one long piece of duct tape around Caylee's head, but to have used several shorter pieces, it makes me think two things.

Obviously she needed a cutting tool of some sort - I have a terrible time ripping duct tape manually - it's just too stretchy. I suppose it could be done, but at least forensic testing will most likely tell us that. I can't remember if scissors or other cutting utensils were taken from the car. I know that CA found a dinner knife and cleaned it, but I was never sure if it was a sharp one that could cut tape or more of a butter knife.

If KC had the time to cut several strips of duct tape, it may also show that it was a staging effect because if KC was simply trying to shut up a live child and was acting on angry impulse, I'd have thought she would just take the roll and keep tightly wrapping it tightly around her nose and mouth. Taking the time to cut separate strips and apply them means one of two things: if she was alive, this was premeditated; she would have had to cut them first to apply them quickly and in succession without Caylee trying to rip them off.

If they were applied perimortem/postmortem then this was also a very deliberate and calculated effort to stage a kidnapping.

Either way it looks less like impulse and more like the "SLB" ("spiteful little *****") effect.

Just had a thought.....is it possible that the duct tape came into play shortly after Caylee was deceased, and Casey placed one or two pieces over the mouth (and/or nose) to try to keep fluids from leaking out? (have heard of recently deceased bodies being found with liquid around mouth area).

After a day or hours, the original pieces weren't preventing leakage, so she added additional pieces?

Trying to keep verbage from sounding too stomach wrenching.....so as an analogy, if your bathroom sink pipe has a small leak and you place a few strips of duct tape over the leak to hold it temporarily, but a few hours later, you notice it leaking again, so you cut a few more strips to place on top of the strips you placed earlier....get my point??

This may explain why the duct tape was not wrapped completely around the head....no need since nothing leaking in the back?

 

[akashana]

If it's true that the tape was applied post mortem (which I still am not sure of), and while there were no definitive indications of homicidal trauma to the skeleonized remains, one possible COD could have been a severe body blow to her abdomen, lacerating her liver. There would be no signs on her skeleton, but had the corpse been discovered sooner rather than months later, it would have been identifiable at autopsy. Unfortunately, I can think of no smoking gun scenario that would reveal it at this late date. But KC lashing out in anger at a screaming Caylee, delivering the fatal blow to soft tissue and organs, freaking out, hiding the little body in the trunk, duct taping the mouth and nose . . . it could have gone down like that.

 

[Jolynna]

Thanks for bringing that up - I read the report but did not get that specific impression, so if that is correct, it brings up another important point.

For KC to have not simply wrapped one long piece of duct tape around Caylee's head, but to have used several shorter pieces, it makes me think two things.

Obviously she needed a cutting tool of some sort - I have a terrible time ripping duct tape manually - it's just too stretchy. I suppose it could be done, but at least forensic testing will most likely tell us that. I can't remember if scissors or other cutting utensils were taken from the car. I know that CA found a dinner knife and cleaned it, but I was never sure if it was a sharp one that could cut tape or more of a butter knife.

If KC had the time to cut several strips of duct tape, it may also show that it was a staging effect because if KC was simply trying to shut up a live child and was acting on angry impulse, I'd have thought she would just take the roll and keep tightly wrapping it tightly around her nose and mouth. Taking the time to cut separate strips and apply them means one of two things: if she was alive, this was premeditated; she would have had to cut them first to apply them quickly and in succession without Caylee trying to rip them off.

If they were applied perimortem/postmortem then this was also a very deliberate and calculated effort to stage a kidnapping.

Either way it looks less like impulse and more like the "SLB" ("spiteful little *****") effect.

In response to the part I bolded.

This post might explain why Casey used multiple layers of tape. [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3895533&postcount=38"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - New Smoking Gun Theories for DP[/ame] This poster survived an attack an rape with duct tape by making a breathing hole with her lips and tongue. Maybe Caylee did the same?

It is instinct to fight to live.

If KC saw Caylee's breathing hole that would explain why KC used more than one layer of tape. And the DP.

KC had the advantage of size and could easily sit on Caylee holding her arms down with her legs. That would leave KC's hands free. If KC had all those stickers for scrapbooking she would have had scissors for cutting tape readily available too.

Maybe the knife in the car was for spreading velveeta and unrelated to Caylee's death?

JMO

 

[countzero]

Given the facts so far that KC thinks in 10 minute spans and isn't exactly, heck she didn't bother to dump the clean up evidence in separate locations, I feel the smoking gun will be KC's DNA on the plastic black bags Caylee was shoved into.

We only were given the FBI report that no finger prints were found. Nothing about DNA from KC or the A clan was disclosed. If there was, I missed in reading with tears in the latest doc dump.

Great thread by the way.