Theories

[Tony Bennett]

A reply to Cuddington Carol

CC: Here are some things I truly believe:

I believe that speculation is a lot of fun, like working on a puzzle or writing a story, and can make one feel very clever.

REPLY: Outwith the context of trying to work out what really happened to Madeleine McCann, given the huge weight of evidence against them already in the public domain, I would agree with you.

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CC: I believe that the McCann story is extremely interesting.

REPLY: Agreed.

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CC: I believe that the behavior of the parents was neglectful to the point of being criminal.

REPLY: In that case, can I take it that you would have supported the application I made in the criminal courts here in the U.K. for a summons against both the McCanns for child neglect – back in November 2007? It remains the only attempt to date to charge the McCanns with an offence relating to what you calk their ‘criminally neglectful’ conduct?.

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CC: I believe that a great deal of their behavior and many of the circumstances in their situation seem inexplicable and questionable.

REPLY: Agreed.

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CC: I believe that regarding any serious crime, it is important to speculate, to question, to scrutinize, and to do so until there is an indisputable answer.

REPLY: Also agreed.

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CC: I believe that to condemn anyone either in public opinion, or in court, without conclusive, solid and certain evidence is truly wrong.

REPLY: Here I think we must begin to part company. ‘Condemn’ is a strong word. Many decisions in the courts here in the U.K. are made on what is called ‘the balance of probability’ i.e. more than 50% likely. To give you an illustration, in a case of child neglect, there may be insufficient evidence to convict someone of a criminal offence ‘beyond reasonable doubt’.

But the Social Services/child welfare agencies, to protect children, can, do and should act on ‘the balance of probability’ - by taking a range of measures to protect children at risk, short of securing a criminal prosecution. Here, for example, we place children on what is known as a ‘Child Protection Register’.

Perhaps I would choose the word ‘criticise’ rather than condemn. And we do have conclusive and solid evidence on which to criticise the McCanns.

The leading voluntary child welfare organisation in the U.K. is the National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children. They say that young children should never be left alone. The McCanns totally disregarded that advice. They are Doctors.

And you yourself have condemned them by describing their conduct as ‘criminally neglectful’.

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CC: I believe that there is simply not enough evidence available to the public to conclusively lead anyone watching this story, no matter how clever he/she may be, to come to a decision which they should wholeheartedly believe.

REPLY: But many of us believe differently - and if the totality of the evidence against the McCanns were to be set out fully here, it would be enough in the minds of the majority of people to satisfy them that Madeleine died in Apartment 5a in Praia da Luz and her body hidden. That to my mind is proved to a very high degree of probability. How she died is another matter altogether on which we have relatively little evidence.

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CC: Aside from that, here are some things I wonder about:

1) Wasn't there some kind of evidence made public that they never sedated the other two children - hair analysis or something? I think I recall something about that - but not sure, and like many things in this case, it could be spin... but didn't that come about at some point?

REPLY: What the McCanns did was this. They waited four months. They then went to a drugs-testing agency whose identity, so far as I know, they did not disclose. They proclaimed that the agency found no evidence of sedatives being used on the children (the twins). But they did not disclose what drugs they were tested for.

Now, what use is that? The presence of drugs in the hair is usually eliminated after 3 to 6 months. We don’t know what drugs they tested for.

But the fact that they undertook these tests only after four months tells us a lot. They weren’t willing to risk it before. And they won’t disclose the results. It looks to me - and many others - like a clumsy attempt to try and prove that they never sedated their children.

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CC: Weren't the police officials in Portugal in charge of this case also scrutinized in the media for some pretty unethical means of "wrapping up" other cases, involving some very "intense" ( for lack of a better description) questioning/investigating of "suspects"?

REPLY: What this boils down to is a pathetic attempt to smear Goncalo Amaral. The complainant is one Leonor Cipriano. To read the British press, you would never realise that Leonor Cipriano and her brother Jose Cipriano were convicted of child murder and covering up the murder of Leone’s child Joana, aged 8, murdered because she caught her mother and uncle having incestuous sex together. There was ample for forensic evidence plus confessions from both parents. Leonor Cipriano now claims she was beaten into making a confession. Her claims are very dubious, to put it mildly.

And, on the evidence on which the jury convicted them, her allegations have no bearing on her guilt for a terrible crime. It should be noted that the evil couple claimed first of all that Joana had been abducted and went on national television sobbing about the loss of their precious daughter etc. etc. It was a desperately difficult criminal investigation, but the man who successful secured the convictions in this case was the senior investigating officer, Goncalo Amaral.

The vilification of a good detective, Goncalo Amaral, is to the eternal shame of the British press. I have covered this in much more detail towards the end of Madeleine McCann General Discussion Thread No. 23.

One other thing I will say about this. The fact that you associate Goncalo Amaral with the unethical clearing up of another case proves two things: (a) the outstanding success of Clarence Mitchell’s PR work on behalf of the McCanns (to date), and (b) the laziness and supineness of the British press which has failed to tell us about Amaral’s formidable success in this most gruesome case.

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CC: Why would so many people with lives and reputations to protect (the friends of the McCann's) be involved in such a conspiracy, knowing how much they have to lose, and how awful they could end up looking? Knowing a little toddler was missing, or hurt, or dead? Would the friends all really cover, as it is likely more than one would know something - even if it was just that things were not as they seemed, that the stories didn't jibe - though perhaps they could give no definite answer as to what happened. Personally, I truly love my friends, but don't think I could gloss over a kid gone missing or odd behavior or discrepancies in a story. The level of heartlessness involved from so many seems unlikely - not to mention the level of serious trouble they could get into... that alone would scare out of me the facts as I truly know them to be.

REPLY: They would all be in serious trouble of it transpired for example that they were all into sedating their children, contrary to recommended medical practice and of one of them had been killed as a result. Remember too that there may be other things that were going on that we don’t know about. A credible account of how both David Payne and Gerry McCann were once overheard making sexualised remarks about ther own children was given to British police within 10 days of Madeleine’s disappearance. The couple who overheard their remarks on a previous holiday were so alarmed that they would not let Gerry McCann near their apartment.

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CC: Is it not possible that someone other than the McCann's and their friends were involved in this?

REPLY: As well as, maybe.

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CC: It doesn't seem the most likely case, given everything else we've heard, but is there anything to fully rule that out? Without ruling that out, can one really be sure?

REPLY: Just look alone at the evidence from the cadaver dog (Eddie) and the bloodhound (Keela) alone. Then look at the extraordinary things - I counted at least seven of them - that the McCanns said back in September 2007, when the cadaver dog evidence first surfaced. That evidence is powerful evidence that Madeleine died in Apartment 5a and her body may be have been conveyed in the Renault Scenic that they hired.

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CC: Based on the prior question, is it rational to so firmly 'believe' one has an answer?

REPLY: Yes, entirely rational, when you look at the totality of the evidence in this case. And we are only saying we have some answers, not every answer.

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CC: And finally, here is my suspicion and opinion, which amounts to very little even in my own mind ( see the last point I made regarding "things I truly believe"):

I think it is likely the parents are hiding something. However, I don't really know what that may be. I think that their behavior regarding her disappearance is very strange, but at the same time, I wonder if there is one, and only one, means of grieving, of dealing with a crisis, of dealing with the humiliation of horrible parenting made public, and its consequences made public, of dealing with the media during such a crisis? No, clearly not... so I must grant them that.

I don't have all the facts. I only have various pieces of 'evidence' and speculation as the media has presented, and who knows to what degree any of that is whole or real. Still, based solely on what has been presented in the media, it is hard to escape that something is up with these two... as the many theories here have examined... The smell of corpses, the traces of blood, their behavior in the media, the odd reactions of their friends, their lack of solid answers to certain questions they should be able to answer, all lead one to think something is up with these two, and possibly a few others who know the real score... but what is up with them, I really don't know, and what that real score is, I also don't know... That said, I would not be surprised if they were found somehow responsible for their daughter's disappearance...However, unlike many here, I remain unsure.

REPLY: I respect that and am sure we all do given your stated reasons. Quite apart from the evidence in this case, we must also bear in mind that in 99% of all cases where the parents of young children claim that their children have been abducted from their very own homes (or temporary holiday addresses abroad), it turns out later that the children are dead, either by accident, negligence, neglect or deliberate act, and a member of the family is responsible.

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CC: And last but not least...
I predict we will never know, or if we do it won't be for a VERY long time. With the level of exposure, I think there would be some kind of more solid lead by now, and that given the intense interest and outrage surrounding the story, it is unlikely that this would fade away in light of any real lead. I suspect she is likely dead and we won't know any time soon... This is very sad...

REPLY: And due to heavy interference by the British government, which I have summarised elsewhere


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…but also the reason why the speculation should and will continue, and (scary though it may be - thank goodness this isn't a jury in a court of law) we can carry on having fun and feeling clever.

REPLY: Please believe me, Cuddington Carol, we do not in any sense do this to ‘have fun’ or ‘feel clever’. You have badly misjudged the intent of all the McCann-sceptics on here (and elsewhere) if you think that for one moment. All of the McCann-sceptics that I’ve had the pleasure of meeting on this forum share, I am sure, my own conviction that this is about getting truth and justice for Madeleine, who has been denied this by her parents and those helping them. It has been well said that the dead have no-one to fight for justice for them but the living. We do this because we believe that little Madeleine herself would want us to pursue the truth about what happened to her, which plainly the McCanns and their advisers and PR people are, so far successfully, hiding from us.

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[colomom]

 

[daffodil]

Here are some things I truly believe:

I believe that speculation is a lot of fun, like working on a puzzle or writing a story, and can make one feel very clever.

I believe that the McCann story is extremely interesting.

I believe that the behavior of the parents was neglectful to the point of being criminal.

I believe that a great deal of their behavior and many of the circumstances in their situation seem inexplicable and questionable.

I believe that regarding any serious crime, it is important to speculate, to question, to scrutinize, and to do so until there is an indisputable answer.

I believe that to condemn anyone either in public opinion, or in court, without conclusive, solid and certain evidence is truly wrong.

I believe that there is simply not enough evidence available to the public to conclusively lead anyone watching this story, no matter how clever he/she may be, to come to a decision which they should wholeheartedly believe.

Aside from that, here are some things I wonder about:

Wasn't there some kind of evidence made public that they never sedated the other two children - hair analysis or something? I think I recall something about that - but not sure, and like many things in this case, it could be spin... but didn't that come about at some point?

Weren't the police officials in Portugal in charge of this case also scrutinized in the media for some pretty unethical means of "wrapping up" other cases, involving some very "intense" ( for lack of a better description) questioning/investigating of "suspects"?

Why would so many people with lives and reputations to protect (the friends of the McCann's) be involved in such a conspiracy, knowing how much they have to lose, and how awful they could end up looking? Knowing a little toddler was missing, or hurt, or dead? Would the friends all really cover, as it is likely more than one would know something - even if it was just that things were not as they seemed, that the stories didn't jibe - though perhaps they could give no definite answer as to what happened. Personally, I truly love my friends, but don't think I could gloss over a kid gone missing or odd behavior or discrepencies in a story. The level of heartlessness involved from so many seems unlikley - not to mention the level of serious trouble they could get into... that alone would scare out of me the facts as I truly know them to be.

Is it not possible that someone other than the McCann's and their friends were involved in this? It doesn't seem the most likely case, given everything else we've heard, but is there anything to fully rule that out? WIthout ruling that out, can one really be sure?

Based on the prior question, is it rational to so firmly "believe" one has an answer?

And finally, here is my suspicion and opinion, which amounts to very little even in my own mind ( see the last point I made regarding "things Itruly believe"):

I think it is likely the parents are hiding something. However, I don't really know what that may be. I think that their behavior regarding her disappearance is very strange, but at the same time, I wonder if there is one, and only one, means of grieving, of dealing with a crisis, of dealing withthe humiliation of horrible parenting made public, and its consequences made public, of dealing with the media during such a crisis? No, clearly not... so I must grant them that.

I don't have all the facts. I only have various pieces of "evidence" and speculation as the media has presented, and who knows to what degree any of that is whole or real. Still, based solely on what has been presented in the media, it is hard to escape that something is up with these two... as the many theories here have examined... The smell of corpses, the traces of blood, their behavior in the media, the odd reactions of their friends, their lack of solid answers to certain questions they should be able to answer, all lead one to think something is up wth these two, and possibly a few others who know the real score... but what is up with them, I really don't know, and what that real score is, I also don't know... That said, I would not be surprised if they were found somehow responsible for their daughter's disappearance...However, unlike many here, I remain unsure.

And last but not least...


I predict we will never know, or if we do it won't be for a VERY long time. With the level of exposure, I think there would be some kind of more solid lead by now, and that given the intense interest and outrage surrounding the story, it is unliely that this would fade away in light of any real lead. I suspect she is likely dead and we won't know any time soon... This is very sad... but also the reason why the speculation should and will continue, and (scary though it may be - thank goodness this isn't a jury in a court of law) we can carry on having fun and feeling clever.

Now THAT is an excellent post :clap:

 

[colomom]

....just like every other post that a person has put alot of time and effort into!!!!

 

[daffodil]

No not neccessarily.

 

[rashomon]

When exactly was Madeleine last seen alive?

Questions I'm racking my braina bout:
If the McCanns were involved, how did they manage get rid of the body under the circumstances - in that extremely narrow time frame and in a resort full of people?
When did they get rid of the body?
What was the most likely place they would think of if they wanted to get rid of the body? The sea?
What about the eyewitnesses who claim the man they saw carrying something (a child?) may have been Gerry McCann - when did they see him?

 

[colomom]

When exactly was Madeleine last seen alive?

Questions I'm racking my braina bout:
If the McCanns were involved, how did they manage get rid of the body under the circumstances - in that extremely narrow time frame and in a resort full of people?

Many theories about that rashomom and this thread has many logical conclusions outlined. Mine is #1 and #132 check em'out....

When did they get rid of the body?

Same answer...

What was the most likely place they would think of if they wanted to get rid of the body? The sea?

Some say the sea, some say buried at the beach and then moved, some say the sewer system, some say buried behind the church, some say buried where the roads were dug up, some say out in the wastelands surrounding PDL, some say in the acid pits of Huelva and there are more...

What about the eyewitnesses who claim the man they saw carrying something (a child?) may have been Gerry McCann - when did they see him?

You are referring to the sighting by the Irishman, Martin Smith. He said he saw a man carrying a child toward the beach on the evening of May 3rd at a time that GM was reported to have been at the restaurant. He saw GM get off the plane when he flew back to England and noticed the way he was carrying Sean and realized that it was the same way the man was carrying the child that night. He told the PJ he was 99% (or something like that) sure that GM was the man he saw. Google: Martin Smith McCann and you will find many articles.

Hope that helps....

 

[Barnaby]

Some say the sea, some say buried at the beach and then moved, some say the sewer system, some say buried behind the church, some say buried where the roads were dug up, some say out in the wastelands surrounding PDL, some say in the acid pits of Huelva and there are more...

........ the Pet Crem, Colomon, that keeps coming up for me!

 

[iNTERESTEDWOMAN]

........ the Pet Crem, Colomon, that keeps coming up for me!

You and me both Barnaby. I'll tell ya, according to the Evert Hoos, it is all very strange: The quote is from the following link:
http://www.mirror.co.uk/sunday-mirr...pet-crem-sealed-off-by-police-98487-19796881/

Creon Starlight owner Evert Hoos, 61, told detectives a couple claiming to be Polish but with English accents arrived at his premises two weeks after Madeleine vanished.
He was asked to dispose of "two dogs" in black sacks which he incinerated without looking at them.
He told the Sunday Mirror the couple seemed emotionless and did not ask for the ashes, instead insisting they were scattered on local scrub-land.
Mr Hoos said: "I am now haunted by thinking, what if one of the bags contained something more sinister?"

The police who called had claimed they were investigating a strange smell.
But Mr Hoos said: "They then asked me straight away if I knew anything about what happened to Madeleine. I said no, but I immediately thought about that couple.
"Usually the people coming to me are upset and in tears but they weren't.
"It was also strange how they didn't ask me for the ashes. And I thought it odd that they spoke such excellent English. It was all just a bit strange.
"They said they had to dispose of two dogs. Afterwards I scattered the ashes. They left quickly when it was done."

Creon Starlight Pet Cremation Service, near the town of Monchique, is 30 miles from Praia da Luz. WHY would a polish couple, (who spoke perfect English) have 2 dogs with them in Portugal? I know some people travel with their pets, but 2 sick pets? Why would they be traveling with very sick dogs...so sick they died and needed cremated. If you were such a pet lover to travel to a foreign country with your pet, wouldn't you cry or show some emotion? If you loved your pet so much to travel with them, wouldn't you want their ashes? Isn't there some sort of laws about bring animals into a foreign country? A quarantine or something? :waitasec: This happened 2 weeks AFTER Maddie went missing. What kind of vehichle did this couple drive? Was it exactly 2 weeks or an estimated 2 weeks. Too many unanswered questions. Surely the cops asked more than what was reported in the paper.

 

[Texana]

....just like every other post that a person has put alot of time and effort into!!!!

I agree!:seeya:

 

[colomom]

I agree!:seeya:

:blowkiss:

 

[Barnaby]

You and me both Barnaby. I'll tell ya, according to the Evert Hoos, it is all very strange: The quote is from the following link:
http://www.mirror.co.uk/sunday-mirr...pet-crem-sealed-off-by-police-98487-19796881/



Creon Starlight Pet Cremation Service, near the town of Monchique, is 30 miles from Praia da Luz. WHY would a polish couple, (who spoke perfect English) have 2 dogs with them in Portugal? I know some people travel with their pets, but 2 sick pets? Why would they be traveling with very sick dogs...so sick they died and needed cremated. If you were such a pet lover to travel to a foreign country with your pet, wouldn't you cry or show some emotion? If you loved your pet so much to travel with them, wouldn't you want their ashes? Isn't there some sort of laws about bring animals into a foreign country? A quarantine or something? :waitasec: This happened 2 weeks AFTER Maddie went missing. What kind of vehichle did this couple drive? Was it exactly 2 weeks or an estimated 2 weeks. Too many unanswered questions. Surely the cops asked more than what was reported in the paper.

Yes the report disturbed me greatly also IW but the only thing that I wonder about is that surely if Madeleine's remains had been cremated there PJ would have found something resembling human DNA on examination?

 

[Arturo Durano]

My overriding concern re this strange case goes back to the horrendous & unacceptable lack of concern by the parents in leaving their young children unattended in a foreign country's resort apartment while they enjoyed a fabulous night out away from the kids. The entire incident could easily have been avoided by the normal & acceptable procedure of hiring a babysitter. Plus as physicians, they could have had zero trouble in paying the babysitter & adding a grateful tip as well. This tragic story goes "off the rails" right at the very start making the parents prime suspects. If Scotland Yard had been the investigating authorities right from the commencement, Scotland Yard would have left no stone unturned. When family members disappear, the first place to start an investigation is usually a family member, especially re spouses. Now I'll head back & finish viewing a few snapshots from Madonna's wedding yet. On second thot, no, I won't.

MCCAIN-PALIN FOR THE USA 2008! REAL HOPE FOR AMERICA!

 

[rashomon]

So, last night I posted a "tweaked" version of my original theory for them to consider. Here it is for your consideration as well:

One reason that a plan to conceal a body might be hatched would be because it was not an accidental death. Imagine that due to the previous night's crying a certain doctor asked his certain doctor friend if he had any suggestions on how they might be sure their child would sleep. The doctor friend might have suggested what he was using for his own children. Imagine that all the children were then given sedatives as soon as they were brought back to the apartment. Imagine then that the twins were bathed and getting sleepy, put to bed. Then it was the little girl's turn and she resisted. Did not want to take a bath, maybe the sedative had the opposite effect and she was rambunctious. Imagine at 6:37PM a certain doctor father lost his cool with his uncooperative daughter and lashed out...fatally. Imagine the panic. The child had sedatives in her bloodstream and a fracture that could not be explained as an accident. The parents hatched a plan. The planning/discussion and clean-up took place between 6:40 and 8:15 while her body lay in a duffel bag, hidden away (in a wardrobe/in front of the wardrobe).

The daughter was stripped bare and her (bloody) clothing removed to be washed. She was wrapped in a sheet and carried out to the car in the duffel bag. Since the car (their's or maybe hastily borrowed with an excuse that the children were sick and a trip to the drugstore was necessary) was parked in the corner of the lot (under the street light) the bag was placed in the flower bed while the car was moved closer. Then the bag was placed in the trunk. The time is now 8:20. The doctor father then drives out of the populated area, toward Bergau until a dark, secluded road was found. The time is now 8:30. The body is removed from the bag, unwrapped, laid bare in a very, very remote location. Perhaps concealed inside a large bush. The plan is that if the body was discovered, hopefully many months later, there would be nothing to connect the body to the child or the family. The sheet is placed back in the bag and the drive back to the apartment takes about 10 minutes. The time is now 8:40. While waiting for the doctor father to return the mother has been cleaning, washing the bloody clothes and then holding the stuffed toy for comfort. She has calmed herself with a couple of glasses of wine and splashed water on her face. She has very good emotional control, she is stoic. She is ready to go to dinner in order to make it appear that everything is normal, nothing out of the ordinary. On return the bag is placed behind the couch, out of sight, to be disposed of later. They are ready to leave at 8:45-8:50.

Now imagine that in the haste of the drive to hide the body something is forgotten. The bead/rubberband in the braid of her hair. It will need to be retrieved. At a later date a trip was made back to the site and the bead/band removed (with some hair) and then hidden in the boot. It was then disposed of later, far away from the site.

She is still there today....

I am leery of the reports of the blood/death scent on the patio stairs as I only read that report in a couple of places (on the Mirror board and ?) I do not recall if it was printed in a reputable Portuguese paper nor was it "leaked" from the official files, as far as I know. I remember seeing something about blood/brain matter (gross) at the bottom of the patio stairs.

Additionally, if Maddie was not in the creche on May 3rd, don't you think we would have seen some report from a MW employee to that effect? I also think that the involvement of so many of the T7 would almost guarantee a confession, eventually. Which may be in the future, of course.

Tell me your thoughts....please.

Wasn't the whole area very throroughy searched, also with dogs? Wouldn't the body have been discovered?
How far is Bergau from the Ocean Club resort?
When exactly did the McCanns hire the Renault scenic in which the dogs discovered the cadaver odor and the blood?

 

[JaneInOz]

Hi

My theory is much the same as many on here..

I believe that the McCanns, DOCTORS... regularly sedated their children so that the children would remain asleep whilst they went about their socializing.

I also think that the previous night that Madeleine had screamed/cried etc was because she perhaps was becoming used to the amount of sedation and woke up briefly during the night, and the neighbor heard her scream out, perhaps it was just a nightmare

I believe that on this particular night the McCanns, drugged their children , ready for their long night of socializing ahead, and either A) gave her too much or B) she may have had a bad reaction this time or C) She half woke stumbled and hit her head on something.

They then , didnt want to lose their license as doctors and so did the whole elaborate cover up...

These people show similar traits to Casey Anthony, in the respect of the lack of emotion..or little emotion, I think thats because in their minds they actually do not think that they did anything wrong, and the public/media whoever is wagging the accusatory finger of murder , not sedating them and causing a accidental death..
Therefore they can hold their heads high and believe they are innocent...

In regards to the leaving the children to go off to dinner, I couldn't agree more I think its heinous be it a foreign country or home soil, but apparently in Europe it is done a lot - so I have been told....

 

[Gloryrebel]

I heard reports of someone taking pictures of Maddy during the day while they went to lunch. I do not believe the parents were at all like CA. They from the first answered all questions, took lie detectors tests and searched and searched until they were forced to leave the country. This case was bungled from the start and poor police work. It became bad for the country as it needs to tourist dollars. It bacame neccessary to accuse the parents to make them leave and wait for the publicity to die down. They do not have a registry for sex offenders like the USA. Both parents were showing emotion and behavior of what would be expected of parents who child is missing. There were no complaints in the UK of any mistreatment of the children. I think they were watched and she was either killed or snuck out by predator. I lean toward killed because the predator didn't plan on such publicity. My
:twocents:

 

[april4sky]

I heard reports of someone taking pictures of Maddy during the day while they went to lunch. I do not believe the parents were at all like CA. They from the first answered all questions, took lie detectors tests and searched and searched until they were forced to leave the country. This case was bungled from the start and poor police work. It became bad for the country as it needs to tourist dollars. It bacame neccessary to accuse the parents to make them leave and wait for the publicity to die down. They do not have a registry for sex offenders like the USA. Both parents were showing emotion and behavior of what would be expected of parents who child is missing. There were no complaints in the UK of any mistreatment of the children. I think they were watched and she was either killed or snuck out by predator. I lean toward killed because the predator didn't plan on such publicity. My
:twocents:

Hi Gloryrebel, welcome to Madeleine's thread.

Great post! I agree with you except about the lie detector test! And I hope she wasn't killed.

They didn't take a lie detector test. As far as I am aware they were never asked to take one as they are not admissable in Europe.
And I don't think the McCanns would have trusted these particular PJ to be honest about the results of a test either!.....With good cause!!

 

[Salem]

Hi Gloryrebel - welcome to Maddie's thread! Do you have links for the lie detector tests? As far as we know the McCanns publicly stated they would take one, but never did.

Also, do you have links for all the questions they answered? It is my understanding that KM refused to answer something like 40 questions when interviewed by the Portugal police.

In addition, the Tapas 9 had a very hard time making their stories match up and if you look at JT's map that SHE drew, it becomes evident that her redition of the facts is highly suspect.

I'm not disputing your theory really, just asking what you base it on.... Is it a gut feeling, based on media reports or ???

Again, Welcome!

Salem

 

[Jayelles]

his is what I think happened to Madeleine.

I think she was kidnapped by someone who was aware that holidaymakers at the resort were inclined to put the children to bed and then go and eat at the restaurant.

It isn't easy to snatch a child of that age because they are usually with a parent or responsible adult. Taking a child from its own home is risky because a child of that age is rarely left alone in the house and certainly not on a regular basis such that a pattern could be established. Also, private residences often have alarm systems or family pets. A stranger would also stand out in a residential area.

The holiday apartments are basic. There wouldn't be family pets or a burglar alarm. Not just that - the neighbours wouldn't have dogs either and they wouldn't report a srange face. The abductor could easily walk around the apartments and familiarise himself with layouts and habits without drawing attention to himself. Resorts are full of transient holidaymakers who stay for a week or a few days and then disappear.

The McCann apartment was secluded at the back and afforded a great deal of privacy for anyone who wanted to hide and wait for their "big moment". The rear of the apartment is enclosed by a wall and mature trees. Not only that, but there is a smaller wall closer to the apartment which would provide additional protection from any passers-by. The rear of the apartment also faces onto the road and would provide an easy escape route by car.

I think the kidnap was planned. I don't think Madeleine was specifically singled out from the perspective of being Madeleine McCann, but I think she may have fitted the bill of being the right age, sex and living in a convenient apartment. I think she was "acquired". I also think the abductor may have been watching and waiting for the right moment for a few weeks. There were reports of a man hanging around and an attempted break during the days and weeks before Madeleine's abduction.

It was well known that British and Dutch holidaymakers were inclined to use Baby Listening services so that the parents could eat or drink in the bar. I think the abductor saw that as providing an ideal opportunity to take a child.

So, if someone wanted a child to use for whatever purpose, this would provide an ideal and comparatively low risk opportunity to acquire one.

I think the abductor watched to see who was coming and going and that he entered the apartment and was out again in a flash. I don't think she died in the apartment although she may have been quietened in some way in case she wakened and started screaming.

I think if we hadn't been reading about Madeleine McCann, we would have been reading about some other child.

I don't think this is beyond the realms of possibility. I don't know whether her abductor is also her captor or whether she was abducted "to order".

I also think it's entirely possible that the abductor had a key. Plenty of people had access to keys:-

• cleaners
• previous occupants
• maintenance staff

These apartments often have master keys too. I'd be looking at people who had access to keys. I'd also be wanting to see any cctv footage during the previous weeks.

I know there was an appeal for holiday photos taken by people who had been at the resort during the weeks prior to the abduction. I don't know if this was done or if they were studied to look for the same man or woman appearing in photos taken during different weeks. I do think it's possible the abductor was a woman. I wouldn't ignore Jane Tanner's eye-witness testmony, but I wouldn't exclude everything else on the basis of it either.

I think it's likely that her abductor or a person who facilitated the abduction has a connection with Praia da Luz. Not necessarily a local, but perhaps someone who worked there temporarily.

Is she alive?

I don't think she was murdered straight away. I don't discount the possibility that she may have been murdered later and I worry that her coloboma would have been the reason for that - too easily identifiable. I think she was abducted either for purposes of abuse or adoption. If it were the latter, her coloboma would make her too "hot". However, sick and perverse though it may be, we know there are people who keep human captives for their own sick pleasures and that some of them manage to do this successfully for decades (Fritzl & others). I've personally heard of about five such cases in the last couple of years. Therefore, it is entirely possible that Madeleine is being held captive in a house somewhere and that she may be discovered some day through pure chance as some of the other captives were. When you think about it, when we hear about Shannon Matthews, Fritzl's daughter was still being held captive so to was this latest Italian one. How many others? Maybe more than we think.

I think this is what her parents are working on. They need people to believe she may be alive and to be vigilant. Who knows what secrets your neighbours are keeping? Madeleine's abductor may be a kidnapper and even a paedophile, but he may not be a murderer. Had it not been for her eye, her changing appearance as she grew would make her increasingly harder to identify, therefore, her captor would have two options - kill her or hide her and if he's not a murderer, he would take steps to do the latter.

When news of Fritzl broke, some of the neighbours were shocked but for others, some things started to make sense. That's what we need to think about. Madeleine could be anywhere in the world by now. If her abductor took her by car, she could have been at a marina before her parents could raise the alarm and in Africa the following day - sooner if a powerboat were used. If the person who "ordered" her has money, she could even have been taken by yacht to America.

If people are convinced that Madeleine was killed by her parents, they won't be looking for her as a potential captive. How awful would that be? Someone sees something suspicious but they think "Nah, can't be anything to do with Madeleine McCann - she was killed by her parents." and they dismiss it.

 

[daffodil]

Hi Jay,

What do you make of the sniffer dogs alerting?