THIS article says what I believe about the motive for the murder and who the perp was

[UKGuy]

I cannot begin to imagine who you could be talking about. :innocent:

Sabot,

In the 1960s television series, Thing—strictly speaking, a disembodied forearm, since he occasionally emerged from his box at near-elbow length—was usually played by Ted Cassidy, who also played the lugubrious butler Lurch, although the two characters occasionally appeared in the same scene (in which case Thing would be played by a crew member, notably assistant director Jack Voglin).

.

 

[DeeDee249]

I was always partial to Froggy from Andy's Gang myself. (Hiya kids, Hiya Hiya Hiya! ) Midnight the Cat freaked me out, though. My fave episode was Midnight being forced to play "Jesus Loves Me" on a tiny organ.

And that REALLY dates me!

Still can be seen on YouTube, BTW.

 

[FrayedKnot]

Sorry to butt into the discussion, but I cannot help to think that clinging to IDI is like looking at an empty cookie jar, a child with a crummy face and full mouth, and frantically running thru the neighborhood looking for the cookie thief.

PR was a shallow, superficial person whose 'behind the curtain' life was a mess. She overcompensated with tacky decorating, pageants, junior league, tour of homes, etc. But veneer is cheap and flimsy and eventually chips off with enough pressure.

PR just couldn't tolerate that her JBR wasn't as perfect as that creepy My Twinn doll. JBR was rebelling and acting out. She likely was soiling herself to spite her overbearing mother whether consciously or un-, and I believe the erosion seen in JBRs vagina and hymenal tissue was from douching and digital penetration when PR was furiously 'cleaning' JBR after her many 'dirtyings'.

I do not think JR or anyone else was molesting her. I think that all the vaginal trauma was due to PR maniacally and with intensifying anger, 'cleansing' her dirty secret.

JBRs hair was naturally dirty blonde. Bleach it. PR was a filthy housekeeper. Buy more ornate decor to cover the clutter. JR likely had one or more extramarital affairs (totally my hunch, but hey, he did it to his first wife) so let's spend obscene amounts of money on remodeling several already expensive homes to show how perfect everything is.

All of it inexpertly applied veneer. Which, on December 25/26,1996 did what any cheap veneer will do; it cracked. PR lost her temper on JBR for the last time, did a crappy, overblown coverup job, full of more gimcrackery and I believe she enlisted JRs help after she realized she was in over her not-to-bright head.

I think he helped her because he wanted to hold together whatever remained of his family and wanted to hold onto his business and assets rather than lose everything on a trial for PR. He knew she'd never come off as innocent.

Anyway, it's JMO. But jeebus, it's been staring us all in the face for 15 years and it's covered in cookie crumbs.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Sabot]

Sabot,

.

I know that. I'm just not admitting how old I am. Speak to The Hand.

 

[Sabot]

Now I've really started something!

We all want to be in someone's Gang. And you appear to be The Pack Leader.

In my house I am The Pack Leader. Ask the dog. He knows. The fact that I never try to take a bone away from him is neither here nor there.

However. Back on Topic everyone.

Were there any other finger prints on The Letter, apart from Patsy's, as she appears to have picked it up from the stairs? Unless this crazed maniac went armed with a pair of rubber gloves, although I can't see that myself.

Sorry. I don't DO Pitch Forking, and I wouldn't be doing it now, except that no one can hurt Patsy Ramsey anymore, so it has become academic.
I can only say that I am glad that American Law is no longer quite so keen to jump to unproven theories. I will always prefer that a guilty man goes free than to see an innocent man convicted. And not just in America. The UK has had a fair few miscarriages of justice. And so has France. One of them was Guillotined. The last lot in France were eventually found to be Innocent. And my goodness me, didn't that cause a ruckus.

 

[Sabot]

Sorry to butt into the discussion, but I cannot help to think that clinging to IDI is like looking at an empty cookie jar, a child with a crummy face and full mouth, and frantically running thru the neighborhood looking for the cookie thief.

PR was a shallow, superficial person whose 'behind the curtain' life was a mess. She overcompensated with tacky decorating, pageants, junior league, tour of homes, etc. But veneer is cheap and flimsy and eventually chips off with enough pressure.

PR just couldn't tolerate that her JBR wasn't as perfect as that creepy My Twinn doll. JBR was rebelling and acting out. She likely was soiling herself to spite her overbearing mother whether consciously or un-, and I believe the erosion seen in JBRs vagina and hymenal tissue was from douching and digital penetration when PR was furiously 'cleaning' JBR after her many 'dirtyings'.

I do not think JR or anyone else was molesting her. I think that all the vaginal trauma was due to PR maniacally and with intensifying anger, 'cleansing' her dirty secret.

JBRs hair was naturally dirty blonde. Bleach it. PR was a filthy housekeeper. Buy more ornate decor to cover the clutter. JR likely had one or more extramarital affairs (totally my hunch, but hey, he did it to his first wife) so let's spend obscene amounts of money on remodeling several already expensive homes to show how perfect everything is.

All of it inexpertly applied veneer. Which, on December 25/26,1996 did what any cheap veneer will do; it cracked. PR lost her temper on JBR for the last time, did a crappy, overblown coverup job, full of more gimcrackery and I believe she enlisted JRs help after she realized she was in over her not-to-bright head.

I think he helped her because he wanted to hold together whatever remained of his family and wanted to hold onto his business and assets rather than lose everything on a trial for PR. He knew she'd never come off as innocent.

Anyway, it's JMO. But jeebus, it's been staring us all in the face for 15 years and it's covered in cookie crumbs.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

This Soiling Business really worries me. It is the sign of a disturbed child. Although I have to add that it could be dietary. But douching a six year old child is disgusting when it can be done by a half decent bath. Douching a child of that age is almost guaranteed to disturb her, presuming that she wasn't disturbed already.
Is this actually true? Do we know for a fact that Patsy Ramsey did this?
I think I feel ill.

 

[ami]

This Soiling Business really worries me. It is the sign of a disturbed child. Although I have to add that it could be dietary. But douching a six year old child is disgusting when it can be done by a half decent bath. Douching a child of that age is almost guaranteed to disturb her, presuming that she wasn't disturbed already.
Is this actually true? Do we know for a fact that Patsy Ramsey did this?
I think I feel ill.

Or the child of a parent and primary caregiver who has cancer. My two cousins at the time aged 7 and 10 both had enormous emotional issues including various bedwetting and associated issues when their mother was hospitalized and ultimately dying from liver failure. YES it messes kids up.

I've heard rumors of douching but not sure that's true - would PR (whom posters continuously point out was hung up on appearances) actually have told people she douched JBR? She wouldn't have said "bathed" or "washed" but she would literally have told someone "douched"? That doesn't seem to fit with the PR profile developed on websleuths here.

Fecal smears on underwear - aka skidmarks? Commonplace. Known to occur on underwear of adults and children alike (especially children not proficient at wiping themselves yet) the world over.

Hymen was partially intact - a small child's vagina is teeny, the hymen a thin membrane, so anything regularly inserted that didn't tear or abrade the entire hymen would have to have been very, very small and also always inserted at the same angle, while the child remained more or less motionless...? Not buying that.

I really don't understand why someone would have to insist there was prior sexual abuse to include in the PDI theory.

 

[FrayedKnot]

This Soiling Business really worries me. It is the sign of a disturbed child. Although I have to add that it could be dietary. But douching a six year old child is disgusting when it can be done by a half decent bath. Douching a child of that age is almost guaranteed to disturb her, presuming that she wasn't disturbed already.
Is this actually true? Do we know for a fact that Patsy Ramsey did this?
I think I feel ill.

IIRC, it was speculation based on comments made by Nedra about how hard it was to keep JBR clean when she would soil and wet herself. I believe it is fact, though, and one of the few that Dr. Beuf confirmed, that JBR had chronic yeast infections.

I know that the toileting issues are classic signs of abuse, but also could be a sign of emotional rather than sexual abuse. If Patsy was potty training her "at gun point" as well as forcing other issues, might not the soiling be a reaction to that?

I am not discounting sexual abuse, but I do think PRs constant insistence on perfection may also explain some of the behaviors and vaginal trauma. The perimortem abrasions of course were part of the staging. IMHO.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[DeeDee249]

Whenever there is a missing/abraded hymen in a CHILD of 6, along with blood found in the vagina and on the vagina, bruising in the vagina and on the labia- sexual abuse MUST be considered until proven otherwise. This is especially true when the child is a dead child.
As difficult as parental sexual abuse is, it simply cannot be dismissed because it is unpleasant or because YOU wouldn't do it. I don't know whether Patsy was abusing JB, and the douching hasn't been proven either. But SOMEONE was. The bruising and blood have NO innocent explanation and neither does the eroded hymen, IMO. And let's not forget that a panel of experts determined that JB's vaginal opening was MUCH larger than it should have been in a child her age. Even accounting for normal variations in size.
Taken all together- the larger opening, the blood in the vagina and on the forchette, the bruise on the labia and bruising in the vagina, the blood that was found to have been wiped from her thighs and pubic area and the eroded hymen- ALL combine to indicate there was abuse, and abuse that occurred at least one other time before that night.
Most families where abuse takes place are exactly the kind of families where you'd never expect it.
I am astounded at what some people can overlook just for the sake of not wanting to admit a parent MAY have been the abuser.

 

[DeeDee249]

IIRC, it was speculation based on comments made by Nedra about how hard it was to keep JBR clean when she would soil and wet herself. I believe it is fact, though, and one of the few that Dr. Beuf confirmed, that JBR had chronic yeast infections.

I know that the toileting issues are classic signs of abuse, but also could be a sign of emotional rather than sexual abuse. If Patsy was potty training her "at gun point" as well as forcing other issues, might not the soiling be a reaction to that?

I am not discounting sexual abuse, but I do think PRs constant insistence on perfection may also explain some of the behaviors and vaginal trauma. The perimortem abrasions of course were part of the staging. IMHO.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Patsy's chemo had been over for 3 years before JB's death. Her cancer was in remission for a few years and Patsy considered herself "miraculously healed". JB had been fully potty trained for three years before she began to soil and wet herself. It's not like this became an issue while her mother was going through chemo or battling cancer at the time. Patsy was an active mom who was NOT bedridden or invalid in any way. She ran JB's pageant career and was an active participant in her life- lessons, beauty treatments, costumes, the whole thing. She was attractive and involved.
I feel Patsy may have been douching JB- it wouldn't surprise me. Was she sexually abusing her? I don't think so. But it was someone in the family. Could have been JR, JAR or BR.

 

[UKGuy]

Or the child of a parent and primary caregiver who has cancer. My two cousins at the time aged 7 and 10 both had enormous emotional issues including various bedwetting and associated issues when their mother was hospitalized and ultimately dying from liver failure. YES it messes kids up.

I've heard rumors of douching but not sure that's true - would PR (whom posters continuously point out was hung up on appearances) actually have told people she douched JBR? She wouldn't have said "bathed" or "washed" but she would literally have told someone "douched"? That doesn't seem to fit with the PR profile developed on websleuths here.

Fecal smears on underwear - aka skidmarks? Commonplace. Known to occur on underwear of adults and children alike (especially children not proficient at wiping themselves yet) the world over.

Hymen was partially intact - a small child's vagina is teeny, the hymen a thin membrane, so anything regularly inserted that didn't tear or abrade the entire hymen would have to have been very, very small and also always inserted at the same angle, while the child remained more or less motionless...? Not buying that.

I really don't understand why someone would have to insist there was prior sexual abuse to include in the PDI theory.

ami,
Well the coroner in his verbatim autopsy report, did specify sexual contact had taken place, this may be distinct from digital penetration which he also cited, or they may occur in conjunction.

Any PDI has to factor the above in and offer some explanation that is consistent with the PDI. Steve Thomas recounted this in his book, where he outlined some Toilet Rage theory. But its worth noting the sexual abuse theory was sidelined, probably due to fear of litigation via LW. Just as Holly Smith was silenced using similar tactics. And she was the officer who investigated sexual abuse cases!

JonBenet's head injury may have been as the result of an accident, but her internal injuries were no accident!


.

 

[BBB167893]

Sorry to butt into the discussion, but I cannot help to think that clinging to IDI is like looking at an empty cookie jar, a child with a crummy face and full mouth, and frantically running thru the neighborhood looking for the cookie thief.

That's how most of us would describe it, I think.

 

[UKGuy]

IIRC, it was speculation based on comments made by Nedra about how hard it was to keep JBR clean when she would soil and wet herself. I believe it is fact, though, and one of the few that Dr. Beuf confirmed, that JBR had chronic yeast infections.

I know that the toileting issues are classic signs of abuse, but also could be a sign of emotional rather than sexual abuse. If Patsy was potty training her "at gun point" as well as forcing other issues, might not the soiling be a reaction to that?

I am not discounting sexual abuse, but I do think PRs constant insistence on perfection may also explain some of the behaviors and vaginal trauma. The perimortem abrasions of course were part of the staging. IMHO.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

FrayedKnot,
Both Nedra and Patsy in various interviews stated that JonBenet was having toileting issues. Fleet White at one point had to assist JonBenet in the toilet, for some reason, despite her young years she was not shy in asking for help.

Holly Smith a BPD investigator analyzed JonBenet's underwear, finding many to be fecally soiled, or stained. She suggested molestation as a reason for this.

Steve Thomas in his book developed a PDI which included Toilet Rage, and Cleaning Discipline as potential components. Douching is a forum idea tacked onto ST's theories.

I think its safe to assume everything was happy families when they returned from the White's party, since JonBenet was served up a pineapple snack, surely a treat for a little girl whose mother knows she might wet the bed. This snack was so normal the Ramsey's forgot to cleanup and hide the evidence.

Without any evidence of sexual abuse I would go for PDI. But the sexual abuse requires an explanation, since it took place just prior to her death. Suggesting this was the motivating factor in her death and subsequent staging, not any bedwetting. Which might just be a Steve Thomas red herring designed to place pressure on Patsy?


.

 

[BBB167893]

We all want to be in someone's Gang. And you appear to be The Pack Leader.

In my house I am The Pack Leader. Ask the dog. He knows. The fact that I never try to take a bone away from him is neither here nor there.

Well, since we're all going back to the early 60s, here's what that reminded me of:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=syckLQQBShc"]The Leader of The Pack - The Shangrillas - YouTube[/ame]

You're not the first to call me a Pack Leader. Except then, it was more of an accusation. (I'd rather lead a pack of wolves than a pack of hyenas!)

Were there any other finger prints on The Letter, apart from Patsy's, as she appears to have picked it up from the stairs? Unless this crazed maniac went armed with a pair of rubber gloves, although I can't see that myself.

No other prints that I am aware of. Not even from JR. As for the intruder wearing gloves, that's a point no one from IDI can agree on. They say he wore them while snooping around the house and writing the Letter, but apparently was NOT wearing them when he entered the basement and killed JB! I'm going to need someone to explain that one!

Sorry. I don't DO Pitch Forking, and I wouldn't be doing it now, except that no one can hurt Patsy Ramsey anymore, so it has become academic.

I appreciate that you have a sense of honor, Sabot. That's a rare quality these days. Even I get uncomfortable when someone takes it, as I see it, too far. As far as I go, I don't think Patsy wound up in hell. I think God makes distinctions between an evil person and a person who made a mistake.

I can only say that I am glad that American Law is no longer quite so keen to jump to unproven theories. I will always prefer that a guilty man goes free than to see an innocent man convicted. And not just in America. The UK has had a fair few miscarriages of justice. And so has France. One of them was Guillotined. The last lot in France were eventually found to be Innocent. And my goodness me, didn't that cause a ruckus.

Some people refer to this case as a miscarriage of justice, Sabot. Far as I go, it was not a miscarriage, rather it was an abortion. But that's not what you meant.

I agree: it's better to see a guilty person go free than an innocent person go to prison, or worse. But I can sympathize with the "pitchforkers," too. Maybe there's a middle ground, but I'm damned if I can find it.

 

[ami]

Whenever there is a missing/abraded hymen in a CHILD of 6, along with blood found in the vagina and on the vagina, bruising in the vagina and on the labia- sexual abuse MUST be considered until proven otherwise. This is especially true when the child is a dead child.
As difficult as parental sexual abuse is, it simply cannot be dismissed because it is unpleasant or because YOU wouldn't do it. I don't know whether Patsy was abusing JB, and the douching hasn't been proven either. But SOMEONE was. The bruising and blood have NO innocent explanation and neither does the eroded hymen, IMO. And let's not forget that a panel of experts determined that JB's vaginal opening was MUCH larger than it should have been in a child her age. Even accounting for normal variations in size.
Taken all together- the larger opening, the blood in the vagina and on the forchette, the bruise on the labia and bruising in the vagina, the blood that was found to have been wiped from her thighs and pubic area and the eroded hymen- ALL combine to indicate there was abuse, and abuse that occurred at least one other time before that night.
Most families where abuse takes place are exactly the kind of families where you'd never expect it.
I am astounded at what some people can overlook just for the sake of not wanting to admit a parent MAY have been the abuser.

The blood was found in the autopsy - part of the attack that preceded or directly followed her death. As far as I've been aware, there is no argument that she was abused in conjunction with her death. That's established.

My objection was to the assumption that she suffered chronic sexual abuse before that time. Before that night.

Partially eroded hymen - yes it does have several explanations beyond abuse. As do the vaginal infections duly noted in her regular medical file by her pediatrician (especially in conjunction with bed wetting - which can be an irritant, as is frequent washing with soap).

Is there a longer autopsy report than the one at this link? http://tinyurl.com/7gs4syw

ami,
Well the coroner in his verbatim autopsy report, did specify sexual contact had taken place, this may be distinct from digital penetration which he also cited, or they may occur in conjunction.

Any PDI has to factor the above in and offer some explanation that is consistent with the PDI. Steve Thomas recounted this in his book, where he outlined some Toilet Rage theory. But its worth noting the sexual abuse theory was sidelined, probably due to fear of litigation via LW. Just as Holly Smith was silenced using similar tactics. And she was the officer who investigated sexual abuse cases!

JonBenet's head injury may have been as the result of an accident, but her internal injuries were no accident!


.

I get that Steve Thomas recounted that in his book, but after reading it I don't feel he was a very bright or insightful individual. He seemed more procedural than intellectual, which is probably fine for 99.9% of the crimes he was faced with (was it on the drug squad?) - but his PDI theories never held water to me. As it happens, I also believe PR knows what happened and may have even contributed, but I don't believe ST's theory about it in the slightest.

 

[FrayedKnot]

While I certainly see the evidence supports chronic sexual molestation, I just do not feel like it 'goes' here. At least not in the sense of JB being the outlet for the sexual arousal and release of an adult (eww, grossed myself out).

As far as her being repeatedly penetrated and harmed either digitally or with an object, causing the erosion found at autopsy-yep. That I believe. But I think it was done either sadistically as a punishment for having accidents or as part of an overblown 'washup' by an unhinged mother who was embarrassed and furious by the (in PRs eyes) stubborn refusal of JBR to stop soiling her bedding and clothes.

It just seems more likely scenario than JR molesting her. I may be WAAAAY off, but that has been my feeling about this for years.

I think PR was already a person consumed with appearances and perhaps her cancer made her that much more desperate to control anything she could since the disease made her feel impotent for maybe the first time in her life.

She seemingly controlled everyone and everything else in her life but JBRs toileting was about PATSY and JB doing it to spite her and not about a little girl who was having issues of her own that mommy was making worse each day. PR probably felt JB was trying to make her look bad.

I mean, holy pachinkos, the woman got her knickers in a twist over JB not wanting to wear matching outfits with Mommy! Imagine the rage when JB released her bowels onto the hated outfit. Well, I guess we saw what happened when Mommy finally lost it. Tragically.

Again, it's all MOO. I have listened and read quite a bit and this is what seems most likely to me. Thanks for letting me gab with y'all!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[FrayedKnot]

@Ami-
I read Steve Thomas' book, too and I had a similar opinion. I did feel his frustration with the stonewalling and as I lived in Atlanta at that time, was myself getting a 'hinky' vibe about the uncooperative Ramseys.

I do think STs procedural doggedness was likely a reaction to the shocking lack of procedure beginning with the 911 call and continuing for years.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[ami]

While I certainly see the evidence supports chronic sexual molestation, I just do not feel like it 'goes' here. At least not in the sense of JB being the outlet for the sexual arousal and release of an adult (eww, grossed myself out).

As far as her being repeatedly penetrated and harmed either digitally or with an object, causing the erosion found at autopsy-yep. That I believe. But I think it was done either sadistically as a punishment for having accidents or as part of an overblown 'washup' by an unhinged mother who was embarrassed and furious by the (in PRs eyes) stubborn refusal of JBR to stop soiling her bedding and clothes.

It just seems more likely scenario than JR molesting her. I may be WAAAAY off, but that has been my feeling about this for years.

I think PR was already a person consumed with appearances and perhaps her cancer made her that much more desperate to control anything she could since the disease made her feel impotent for maybe the first time in her life.

She seemingly controlled everyone and everything else in her life but JBRs toileting was about PATSY and JB doing it to spite her and not about a little girl who was having issues of her own that mommy was making worse each day. PR probably felt JB was trying to make her look bad.

I mean, holy pachinkos, the woman got her knickers in a twist over JB not wanting to wear matching outfits with Mommy! Imagine the rage when JB released her bowels onto the hated outfit. Well, I guess we saw what happened when Mommy finally lost it. Tragically.

Again, it's all MOO. I have listened and read quite a bit and this is what seems most likely to me. Thanks for letting me gab with y'all!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The problem I have with "enraged Patsy" is that I haven't seen any evidence that supports her as an enraged person. Plenty that supports her as someone desperate to keep up appearances. Plenty that supports her as a mother reliving her glory days through JBR. But rage? Especially rage pre-JBR's death? I'm not trying to be snarky - I just don't see where that connection is made.

 

[UKGuy]

The blood was found in the autopsy - part of the attack that preceded or directly followed her death. As far as I've been aware, there is no argument that she was abused in conjunction with her death. That's established.

My objection was to the assumption that she suffered chronic sexual abuse before that time. Before that night.

Partially eroded hymen - yes it does have several explanations beyond abuse. As do the vaginal infections duly noted in her regular medical file by her pediatrician (especially in conjunction with bed wetting - which can be an irritant, as is frequent washing with soap).

Is there a longer autopsy report than the one at this link? http://tinyurl.com/7gs4syw



I get that Steve Thomas recounted that in his book, but after reading it I don't feel he was a very bright or insightful individual. He seemed more procedural than intellectual, which is probably fine for 99.9% of the crimes he was faced with (was it on the drug squad?) - but his PDI theories never held water to me. As it happens, I also believe PR knows what happened and may have even contributed, but I don't believe ST's theory about it in the slightest.

ami,
I do not find ST's PDI theories convincing at all. Especially when we all know there is sealed evidence, none of which he ever mentions, never mind explaining what a PDI has to do with a Barbie Doll, Bloodstained Nightgown, and Size-12's v leaving a wet size-6 pair in place?

Another possibility is that there was both prior molestation, followed by a small time gap, then JonBenet wets the bed, or has hygene issues due to being abused? Enter Patsy and ST's PDI evolves ...

There is evidence supporting chronic abuse, obviously its not conclusive, but given the context e.g. acute sexual assault, sexual contact cited by the Coroner. Then the probability there was no chronic abuse seems, to me, to be well less than 0.5!


.

 

[BBB167893]

The blood was found in the autopsy - part of the attack that preceded or directly followed her death. As far as I've been aware, there is no argument that she was abused in conjunction with her death. That's established.

My objection was to the assumption that she suffered chronic sexual abuse before that time. Before that night.

Partially eroded hymen - yes it does have several explanations beyond abuse. As do the vaginal infections duly noted in her regular medical file by her pediatrician (especially in conjunction with bed wetting - which can be an irritant, as is frequent washing with soap).

Is there a longer autopsy report than the one at this link? http://tinyurl.com/7gs4syw

WHat you say is true, ami. And if it were JUST the patrly eroded hymen, I might be inclined to agree. But it wasn't JUST that. The vagina had sections where the layers of flesh in JonBenet's vagina had been worn away over time; stripped away by continuous invasion.

I get that Steve Thomas recounted that in his book, but after reading it I don't feel he was a very bright or insightful individual. He seemed more procedural than intellectual, which is probably fine for 99.9% of the crimes he was faced with (was it on the drug squad?) - but his PDI theories never held water to me.

To each their own, I guess. Yes, he worked narcotics. If I were in your position, ami, I'd worry more about how the DA's office consistently had a problem with proper procedure.

As it happens, I also believe PR knows what happened and may have even contributed, but I don't believe ST's theory about it in the slightest.

I don't go for it, myself. Not completely anyway.